Arya Samaj was a revivalist movement launched by Swami Dayanand Sarwati. Arya Samajis generally do not believe in Avtar of Vishnu and believe in Vedic Hinduism. One of the important work which they launched was Shuddhi movement, aimed to convert Muslims and Christians into Hinduism. As they believed during Muslim rule, many Hindus out of ignorance left their ancient Hindu faith or they felt the need to bring all those back into the fold of Hinduism. Arya Samajis were successful in converting a large number of Muslims into Hindus.
Among their many targeted groups were also Khoja Satpanthi Ismailis and Imam Shahis. They wrote books against Ismailism and raised questions like How tenth avtar could be Muslim instead of Hindu? How the progeny of tenth avtar can continue to called as avtar etc. Ismaili missionaries and scholars gave them answer by writing books and verbal arguments in debate. Many books were published which explained Ismaili concept of Imamat, Ismaili perspective of das avtar etc.
If you know any other details, anecdotes etc related to this topic then do share your knowledge.
Ismailis and Arya Samaj
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star_munir
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This topic is on Ariya Samaj. Please do not divert. I will reply to your continuous accusation and attempt to degrade the Khojas and their tradition but this is the last time. Next your posts unrelated to the thread will be deleted without reply nor further warning.
Yes we lost the Khojas who denied the truth contained in the Ginans (those who became Ithnashri stopped reciting Ginans, they switched to Quran, Namaz and Roza. )That is factual. it has happened in few countries. Only Khojas who understood the Ginans remained loyal to the Imam.
But it is also unfortunate we also lost 99.9% of Arabs Ismailis in Egypt and Maghreb countries.... Good people with good knowledge from our Dais...
it is important to have some knowledge of our history before making generalization and been judgmental on Khojas. They may have multiple flaws but mostly the majority has been true to Imam's Farmans and His Ginans. They have been wonderful volunteers in the work of the Imam in the last Century in various countries and some have been called by the Imam as Dais of today. They have contributed Time, Knowledge, Resources, Skills, perhaps, more than any other community, for the betterment of Ismailis all over he world, regardless of where their contribution would go.
Aren't you tired of contradicting what the Imam said about Ginans and Pirs and our Wonderful Tradition that you do not find wonderful at all
Yes we lost the Khojas who denied the truth contained in the Ginans (those who became Ithnashri stopped reciting Ginans, they switched to Quran, Namaz and Roza. )That is factual. it has happened in few countries. Only Khojas who understood the Ginans remained loyal to the Imam.
But it is also unfortunate we also lost 99.9% of Arabs Ismailis in Egypt and Maghreb countries.... Good people with good knowledge from our Dais...
it is important to have some knowledge of our history before making generalization and been judgmental on Khojas. They may have multiple flaws but mostly the majority has been true to Imam's Farmans and His Ginans. They have been wonderful volunteers in the work of the Imam in the last Century in various countries and some have been called by the Imam as Dais of today. They have contributed Time, Knowledge, Resources, Skills, perhaps, more than any other community, for the betterment of Ismailis all over he world, regardless of where their contribution would go.
Aren't you tired of contradicting what the Imam said about Ginans and Pirs and our Wonderful Tradition that you do not find wonderful at all
I read all available literature of Swami Dayanand Saraswati, this movement was big movement once around 75 years ago, in India and specially in Gujarat.
There is a book name 'VED PRAKASH' written by Swami, in this books Swami criticized almost every religion very badly including Islam, Christianity, and tried to prove that only Hindu religion is right !!
In response of this attack many Ismaili missionaries wrote answered thoese missionary were well known missionaries like Yusub Verteji, Kasam Bogha Master, Abu Ali and many others as normal happen! this kind movement arises very fast and fades up very fast, Swami was killed giving poison.
I personally do not suggest any one to read 'VED PRAKASH' written by Swami unless you are mature enough to digest it!!, The only good think in this religion is they do not worship any Hindu Devi Devtas, they are against idol worshiping.
There is a book name 'VED PRAKASH' written by Swami, in this books Swami criticized almost every religion very badly including Islam, Christianity, and tried to prove that only Hindu religion is right !!
In response of this attack many Ismaili missionaries wrote answered thoese missionary were well known missionaries like Yusub Verteji, Kasam Bogha Master, Abu Ali and many others as normal happen! this kind movement arises very fast and fades up very fast, Swami was killed giving poison.
I personally do not suggest any one to read 'VED PRAKASH' written by Swami unless you are mature enough to digest it!!, The only good think in this religion is they do not worship any Hindu Devi Devtas, they are against idol worshiping.
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star_munir
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To Admin: Ya Ali Madad:
Imam chooses n pick his words perfectly.
I am not contradicting it. I am trying to understand the word more deeply
and expand the many wonders of it.
Khojas of the past mainly had faith out of Ginans n compulsions of Traditions only and not much trust in Farmans n Tariqa.
This over dose of traditions n less of Tariqa did lead to many weak Tariqati's and hollow Haqiqati's who lost the true path.
In the Badhakshani traditions they were also fully exposed to Qurans and recited Namaz then.
Such rich was their traditions and conviction and held to their faith
with No Imam's visit and acute poverty and hardship n even communism
dogma of rule.
A real study is needed by every true Ismaili Scholar on it and not to escape from it. because TRUTH IS TRUTH not one percent blinkered.
Imam chooses n pick his words perfectly.
I am not contradicting it. I am trying to understand the word more deeply
and expand the many wonders of it.
Khojas of the past mainly had faith out of Ginans n compulsions of Traditions only and not much trust in Farmans n Tariqa.
This over dose of traditions n less of Tariqa did lead to many weak Tariqati's and hollow Haqiqati's who lost the true path.
In the Badhakshani traditions they were also fully exposed to Qurans and recited Namaz then.
Such rich was their traditions and conviction and held to their faith
with No Imam's visit and acute poverty and hardship n even communism
dogma of rule.
A real study is needed by every true Ismaili Scholar on it and not to escape from it. because TRUTH IS TRUTH not one percent blinkered.
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star_munir
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The faith in Ginans and traditions made them better Ismaili with love for Imam and ready to do whatever Imam said. If you study Ginan, there is lot of stress on Farmanbardari or obedience to Imam.
Even if you study the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah, things will be clear to you. The way he stressed to have understanding of Ginans will make it clear for you to understand how Ginans made Khojas haqiqati momins. And not only Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah, read also Farmans of Hazir Imam on importance of Ginan...read what He remarked when He attended Ginan Mehfil. You will be surprised to see the importance He has attached to Ginan.
If you claim to be haqiqati and batini, than you need to respect Ginans and the traditions to which Imam has given so much importance. Do you know how much importance Imam has given to our traditions? If not, than instead of making so called haqiqati assumption, open the book of Farman and read it. Your perspective will be broadened.
Even if you study the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah, things will be clear to you. The way he stressed to have understanding of Ginans will make it clear for you to understand how Ginans made Khojas haqiqati momins. And not only Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah, read also Farmans of Hazir Imam on importance of Ginan...read what He remarked when He attended Ginan Mehfil. You will be surprised to see the importance He has attached to Ginan.
If you claim to be haqiqati and batini, than you need to respect Ginans and the traditions to which Imam has given so much importance. Do you know how much importance Imam has given to our traditions? If not, than instead of making so called haqiqati assumption, open the book of Farman and read it. Your perspective will be broadened.
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star_munir
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Going too much deep can drown a person ! one claiming to be Ismaili, be that person on level of shariat or haqiqat, needs to say "aameen" to what Imam says. If some thing is "Wonderful" "unique" and of great importance in the eyes of your Imam, then you should also value it and understand its importance and do not regard it to be useless using your own deeper philosophy.
I have seen many khojas learning Farsi Qasidas and that is some thing good. Personally, I have respect for the devotional literature of the Ismaili jamat belonging to Central Asian, Chinese, Syrian etc traditions because these helped them in becoming true Ismaili. You also need to be broad minded and broaden the vision. Saying Ali Ali is not enough you need to accept and follow the Farman of Ali also.
I have seen many khojas learning Farsi Qasidas and that is some thing good. Personally, I have respect for the devotional literature of the Ismaili jamat belonging to Central Asian, Chinese, Syrian etc traditions because these helped them in becoming true Ismaili. You also need to be broad minded and broaden the vision. Saying Ali Ali is not enough you need to accept and follow the Farman of Ali also.
Khojas have progressed in the world because of their trust in Imam and because they blindly followed the Farmans, guidance of the Imam which emphasized Education, moving across Africa, going into industries, professions etc.. this has created a lot of jealousy that I can still see in some postings.nuseri wrote:To Admin: Ya Ali Madad:
Khojas of the past mainly had faith out of Ginans n compulsions of Traditions only and not much trust in Farmans n Tariqa.
Yours' is the kind of posting not allowed here. If you make statement as this, that Khojas have not much trust in Farmans, not only you are wrong but you are defaming a whole segment of Ismailis. In the first place "Khojas" have been in the forefront of preserving farmans of Imams since the Imams moved to Indian Subcontinent and then to Europe. How much have you contributed to the preservation and making available to the Jamat the Farmans of various Imam?
If you post one more time that "Khojas" Ismailis do not give importance to Farmans, I will consider this a defamation and breach of the rules of this Forum and delete your account altogether. You have wasted enough of our time in explaining you the rules of this Forum.
To Star Munir:
Ya Ali madad.
I agree to your earlier posting.As you are much into academics of religion.I also learn from it.
I wish to know what was their primary and basic 'Inspiration of Faith' then and WHY they left the faith to other segment many decades back ?
Every cause has a reason and just simple answer in 5 words being in denial mode is a diplomacy but introspection by Bhagats, scholars n academic and their observations does expand the knowledge of the members.
IMMENSE STRENGTH COME FROM MINIMIZING WEAKNESS.
Ya Ali madad.
I agree to your earlier posting.As you are much into academics of religion.I also learn from it.
I wish to know what was their primary and basic 'Inspiration of Faith' then and WHY they left the faith to other segment many decades back ?
Every cause has a reason and just simple answer in 5 words being in denial mode is a diplomacy but introspection by Bhagats, scholars n academic and their observations does expand the knowledge of the members.
IMMENSE STRENGTH COME FROM MINIMIZING WEAKNESS.
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star_munir
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Inspiration of Faith, comes from ilm!!! Those who seek knowledge and Ilm will have inspiration of faith!!!! those who denies it, will not be able to be inspired!!! No matter how much they meditate themselves, like chines monks!!!nuseri wrote:To Star Munir:
Ya Ali madad.
I agree to your earlier posting.As you are much into academics of religion.I also learn from it.
I wish to know what was their primary and basic 'Inspiration of Faith' then and WHY they left the faith to other segment many decades back ?
Every cause has a reason and just simple answer in 5 words being in denial mode is a diplomacy but introspection by Bhagats, scholars n academic and their observations does expand the knowledge of the members.
IMMENSE STRENGTH COME FROM MINIMIZING WEAKNESS.
To minimize weakness is to strengthen knowledge!!! Do you???
To Tret:
Ya Ali Madad.
Please do not try divert every important topics out of frustration n lunacy.
There is a Farman of Imam SMS to disregard and ignore the braying and barking of Zahiris.( they will never understand our Baatin Tariqa)
You are not even a D grade to be replied.I do reply others in respect.
Ya Ali Madad.
Please do not try divert every important topics out of frustration n lunacy.
There is a Farman of Imam SMS to disregard and ignore the braying and barking of Zahiris.( they will never understand our Baatin Tariqa)
You are not even a D grade to be replied.I do reply others in respect.
nuseri wrote:To Tret:
Ya Ali Madad.
Please do not try divert every important topics out of frustration n lunacy.
There is a Farman of Imam SMS to disregard and ignore the braying and barking of Zahiris.( they will never understand our Baatin Tariqa)
You are not even a D grade to be replied.I do reply others in respect.
This is what I have said:
Tret wrote: Inspiration of Faith, comes from ilm!!! Those who seek knowledge and Ilm will have inspiration of faith!!!! those who denies it, will not be able to be inspired!!! No matter how much they meditate themselves, like chines monks!!!
To minimize weakness is to strengthen knowledge!!! Do you???
this is what I have said:
Now, please let us know where did I divert the important subject? I believe that our tariqa is tariqa of intellect and knowledge!!!! Now, if I am saying something wrong, please do let me know!!!
There's a saying:
Agar benee ke na binah chahh ast ---- agar khamoosh benshini gunahh ast
meaning: if you see something that is wrong, and yet you keep quiet is a sin!!!
So, now if you see that I am doing (or saying) something wrong, and yet you keep quiet, is a sin. Now, tell me what's so wrong that I am saying and diverting the topic, Mr. Marifati?
nuseri wrote:To Tret:
Ya Ali Madad.
Please do not try divert every important topics out of frustration n lunacy.
There is a Farman of Imam SMS to disregard and ignore the braying and barking of Zahiris.( they will never understand our Baatin Tariqa)
You are not even a D grade to be replied.I do reply others in respect.
This is what I have said:
Now, please let us know where did I divert the important subject? I believe that our tariqa is tariqa of intellect and knowledge!!!! Now, if I am saying something wrong, please do let me know!!!Tret wrote: Inspiration of Faith, comes from ilm!!! Those who seek knowledge and Ilm will have inspiration of faith!!!! those who denies it, will not be able to be inspired!!! No matter how much they meditate themselves, like chines monks!!!
To minimize weakness is to strengthen knowledge!!! Do you???
this is what I have said:
There's a saying:
Agar benee ke na binah chahh ast ---- agar khamoosh benshini gunahh ast
meaning: if you see something that is wrong, and yet you keep quiet is a sin!!!
So, now if you see that I am doing (or saying) something wrong, and yet you keep quiet, is a sin. Now, tell me what's so wrong that I am saying and diverting the topic, Mr. Marifati?
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star_munir
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Mowla Ali Madad,
Its quite long description. I am just writing in short what Imam has mentioned. Imam stated that our religion is our religion. Either you believe in it or not. But you do not have right to remain within it and try to bring change in it (beliefs/practices). You can not remain in faith and call your self reformer. Then Imam also gave example of certain group of people who called themselves Ismailis in Karachi and India but left the fold of Ismailism. It was because, they 'pretended' to be Ismailis and wanted to be 'reformers'
From what Imam has mentioned in his memoirs, it appears that those murids, who tried to modify faith and did not accept what Imam has said left Ismailism. Imam has final authority in all matters of faith.
Its quite long description. I am just writing in short what Imam has mentioned. Imam stated that our religion is our religion. Either you believe in it or not. But you do not have right to remain within it and try to bring change in it (beliefs/practices). You can not remain in faith and call your self reformer. Then Imam also gave example of certain group of people who called themselves Ismailis in Karachi and India but left the fold of Ismailism. It was because, they 'pretended' to be Ismailis and wanted to be 'reformers'
From what Imam has mentioned in his memoirs, it appears that those murids, who tried to modify faith and did not accept what Imam has said left Ismailism. Imam has final authority in all matters of faith.