Is Quran compilation complete?

[tret]

Nobody is saying quran is wrong....what we are saying is that the quran that we have is what is left over...Its not in its originality !!!

That raises another concern. If you become aware that Qura'an is been tampered with and some thing in it may not be correct. Then how could you still believe in it? The moment you believe that Qura'an is not the same as it was supposed to be, then you lose trust. So, which part is correct and which part is not? which part should we accept and which part should we discard? who should decide which part is not correct and which part is not?

[agakhani]

who should decide which part is not correct and which part is not?

Not me, not ZZnorr, Not Shiraz, not Shamb, not any Ulemas, and not Admin that is for sure

You raise another question bro, I think MHI can help in this regard and lot more centuries old issues about Quran.

[tret]

who should decide which part is not correct and which part is not?

Not me, not ZZnorr, Not Shiraz, not Shamb, not any Ulemas, and not Admin that is for sure

You raise another question bro, I think MHI can help in this regard and lot more centuries old issues about Quran.

From your other replies, it appeared that you already declared that Qura'an is outdated. Didn't you? Then why would you even care about who should decide?

Do you eat outdated food? I know you are in US. When you go to store and buy a can of food, and if you notice that the it's outdated, would you buy it? or you would take the one which is not outdated?

I already know where you stand, agakhani! You don't believe in Qura'an. My question was towards Shiraz and other members who don't think Qura'an is outdated.

[shiraz.virani]

Second, if Qura'an is outdated and useless, then why we, everyday recite our holly Du'a which all of them are taken from the same Qura'an.

If you go back a few pages on this topic you would see that I have raised all the questions that you're raising now...Espically the one @ above.

I personally don't feel that quran is outdated....because if thats the case then I wont be putting any quranic aayats on this forum period !!!

What I'm saying is the quran that we have is what is left of quran and much has been lost [intentionally or unintentionally]....Yes it is not in chronological order which i think even you agree I guess

So if you ask me then for me there's more to quran rather than 100 some surahs

[tret]

Second, if Qura'an is outdated and useless, then why we, everyday recite our holly Du'a which all of them are taken from the same Qura'an.

If you go back a few pages on this topic you would see that I have raised all the questions that you're raising now...Espically the one @ above.

I personally don't feel that quran is outdated....because if thats the case then I wont be putting any quranic aayats on this forum period !!!

What I'm saying is the quran that we have is what is left of quran and much has been lost [intentionally or unintentionally]....Yes it is not in chronological order which i think even you agree I guess

So if you ask me then for me there's more to quran rather than 100 some surahs

Thank you! This is what I was expecting.

[ShamsB]

Second, if Qura'an is outdated and useless, then why we, everyday recite our holly Du'a which all of them are taken from the same Qura'an.

If you go back a few pages on this topic you would see that I have raised all the questions that you're raising now...Espically the one @ above.

I personally don't feel that quran is outdated....because if thats the case then I wont be putting any quranic aayats on this forum period !!!

What I'm saying is the quran that we have is what is left of quran and much has been lost [intentionally or unintentionally]....Yes it is not in chronological order which i think even you agree I guess

So if you ask me then for me there's more to quran rather than 100 some surahs

Shiraz;

I think that's what all of us or most of us have been saying - that what is left - has been unchanged since it's compilation; however much was lost during the compilation either intentionally or unintentionally.

Shams

[shiraz.virani]

Tret said :

That raises another concern. If you become aware that Qura'an is been tampered with and some thing in it may not be correct. Then how could you still believe in it? The moment you believe that Qura'an is not the same as it was supposed to be, then you lose trust. So, which part is correct and which part is not? which part should we accept and which part should we discard? who should decide which part is not correct and which part is not?

Your concern is a valid one and I think you're doing a wonderful job by getting involved in this topic.

It is upto ahlebait to decide which part is correct and which part is not...It is upto ahlebait to decide which part should we recite in our holy dua and which part we should not.


As I said earlier brother I'm not doubting the book nor Im saying its imperfect...In fact its the hadith collectors in the past who said so

Quran is an eternal book with eternal message....There was no book at the time of our rasool[saw]...Did you ever wonder why our rasool[saw] never insisted on compilation of holy quran ???

Did you ever wonder why people refused to accept the quran that was compiled by imam ali [as] ???

Did you wonder why H.Aisha would wage a war against the 4th caliph of islam ??

It is the IMAM OF THE TIME that completes the quran ....not the other way around !!!

AGAKHANI BHAI :

Quran as a book may or may not be time bound but its interpretation/message is not time bound.

[a_27826]

Quran as a book may or may not be time bound but its interpretation/message is not time bound.

i like like this part of the post

[zznoor]

Why do you think the whole ummah was united during the 1st four caliphs ??? Was it due to quran or because people felt them to be close companions of rasool[saw] and hence chose them to lead the ummah ???

There was no Shia Sunni division until imam Jafar's time.
Why Zaidis separated?
Why imami Shia and Ismailis separated?
Why Ismailis separated into Nizaris and mustalis?

Is it possible that it is politics not religion!

[tret]

Is it possible that it is politics not religion!

Then what's your argument?
For that matter listen to MHI's interview on NDTV, and see how a muslim is defined. If you look around, it's Sunnies and Shia (twelevers) who are very busy trying to prove who's right and who's wrong. Not us.

[shiraz.virani]

Sister zznoor said :

There was no Shia Sunni division until imam Jafar's time.
Why Zaidis separated?
Why imami Shia and Ismailis separated?
Why Ismailis separated into Nizaris and mustalis?

Is it possible that it is politics not religion!

What a preposterous way to start the debate !!!

Did you ever care to learn about ismaili history ???.....There is plenty of material available on this forum for you to learn but I guess you're just busy with your arrogance...On the left hand side of your screen you have an icon called LIBRARY please click it and read as to which imam after jafer as sadiq[as] is on track and which vanished.

Talking about politics....well, as soon as the news of the demise of our prophet[saw] reached some...they claimed themselves to be rightly guided caliphs.

Talking about politics...why is it that the 4 sunni imams who were the students of our imam Jafer as Sadiq [as] invented their own school of thought ???

Talking about politics...why did Abu Hanifa who is known as the creator of hanifi school delivered a fatwa in favor of zaid in his rebellion against the umayyad ruler ??? Why did he urged people in secret to join zaid and delivered funds to him ??

I can go on and on....but what's the use ???

Sister zznoor, either you fail to see guidance or you don't wanna be guided

[ismaili103]

Why do you think the whole ummah was united during the 1st four caliphs ??? Was it due to quran or because people felt them to be close companions of rasool[saw] and hence chose them to lead the ummah ???

There was no Shia Sunni division until imam Jafar's time.
Why Zaidis separated?
Why imami Shia and Ismailis separated?
Why Ismailis separated into Nizaris and mustalis?

Is it possible that it is politics not religion!

zznoor the great politician

you are converted frm ismaili to sunni you do good u are better than those who follow ismailism and attemping crime in ismailism (munafik) but now what u do is politics u r try your best to prove that ismailism is the big mistake and ismailis are enemy of islam.

just read ismaili history and then comment please a request..to you

[zznoor]

Eid Mubarak to all Ismail brothers and sisters

[zznoor]

To perform Annual Hujj if you can afford it is in Quran. There is no dispute about it.

Eid Mubarak again

[zznoor]

Ismaili103

zznoor the great politician

you are converted frm ismaili to sunni you do good u are better than those who follow ismailism and attemping crime in ismailism (munafik) but now what u do is politics u r try your best to prove that ismailism is the big mistake and ismailis are enemy of islam.

just read ismaili history and then comment please a request..to you

If I left being this and that Muslim, I am still Muslim not Munafik.
I refuse to debate if Ismailism right or wrong.
I have read Ismaili History and understand it.

I cease to be this Muslim and that Muslim.
Now I am plain Muslim.
I believe strongly in Quran and very few Muslims doubt it's authenticity.
As a Muslim I am required to pray Salat 5 times a day. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to fast during Ramadan. Due to medical condition I cannot fast.
As a Muslim I am required to give zakat. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to perform Hujj once in life time. I have done that.
Eid Mubarak and Salaam

[agakhani]

From your other replies, it appeared that you already declared that Qura'an is outdated. Didn't you?

In my opinion yes Quran is out dated, I can give you many proof for that but lets start with one here.

1, We all know and believe that this earth is round, Astronauts also had taken photos of this earth from space and in those photos also shows that earth is round
BUT QURAN SAY IT IS FLAT!!! ,IF THIS IS NOT OUT DATED QURAN THEN WHAT IS THIS!!

1, Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation. Sura Taha (20:53)

2, "And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind." Sura Al-Kahf (18:47)

3,"Have We not made the earth as a bed?, Sura An-Naba (78:6)
This is it just for now but I have many other proof on pipe line.

[agakhani]

If I left being this and that Muslim, I am still Muslim not Munafik.
I refuse to debate if Ismailism right or wrong.
I have read Ismaili History and understand it.

Good to know, but can you tell us at least why you left Ismailism ? A TRUE PATH/SHIRATAN MUSTKIM and when many peoples are converting in Ismailism more and more now a days!!!

[a_27826]

1, Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation. Sura Taha (20:53)

The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, a protective, gentle resting place.... try to find out difference (or similarities) between mahdi and mahdan.........God is pointing out to us that he is compassionate and merciful ......i don't think He is saying that the earth is flat

[a_27826]

1, Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation. Sura Taha (20:53)

The bed here in 020:053, in context could mean some thing like a cradle to a child, a protective, gentle resting place.... try to find out difference/similarities between mahdi and mahdan.........God is pointing out to us that he is compassionate and merciful ......i don't think He is saying that the earth is flat

[agakhani]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

[a_27826]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

no.no.no......i think i did not explain it clearly.......God in this verse did not say any thing about any child or children...........i was just trying to explain the meaning of bed in this verse...........

[a_27826]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

no.no.no......i think i did not explain it clearly.......God in this verse did not say any thing about any child or children...........i was just trying to explain the meaning of bed in this verse...........

furthermore if you read carefully020:053, He says in "He made earth a bed for us".......what could that mean?.....could mean many things but definitely NOT "He made earth flat for us"

[shiraz.virani]

In my opinion yes Quran is out dated, I can give you many proof for that but lets start with one here.

1, We all know and believe that this earth is round, Astronauts also had taken photos of this earth from space and in those photos also shows that earth is round
BUT QURAN SAY IT IS FLAT!!! ,IF THIS IS NOT OUT DATED QURAN THEN WHAT IS THIS!!

1, Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation. Sura Taha (20:53)

2, "And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind." Sura Al-Kahf (18:47)

3,"Have We not made the earth as a bed?, Sura An-Naba (78:6)
This is it just for now but I have many other proof on pipe line.

Agakhani, why is it that whenever someone gives you any counter productive answers you either simply leave the debate or come up with different questions ???

I totally agree with what a_27826 said @ above


If you read quran agakhani bhai which I'm very sure you do...Allah[swt] also says in the book that the universe is ever expanding and on the given term [set by allah[swt]] it would shrink back again.

In the same quran allah[swt] talks about layers of waves and darkness inside the vast oceans

But anyways, lets just answer few of your present and future questions :

1] Is earth egg shaped ??

The Quran mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:

“And we have made the earth egg shaped”. [79:30]

The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse.

Dahaha [mentioned in quran] is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is Geo spherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.

So yes when all the continents were merged together [some billion years ago in ICE AGE] yes earth did not looked round but instead looked disproportionate it was only when the ice starting melting and continents started emerging and expanding and water went down earth looked like a perfect round blue ball...This happened only when the continents started drifting away.

Not just this if you look at earths orbit around the sun even till this day is not round but elliptical


2] Is earth flat ??

18:47

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

This is what allah[swt] says that in future all the expansion of universe [which includes earth] will come to a full stop and reverse engineering will take place where allah[swt] will shrink everything back to like it was in the beginning !!!

Have you seen the tsunami in sri lanka ??? Just imagine when the earth plates start moving crazy and one continent joins another...what would happen agakhani bhai ???

You can take an example of a balloon...if you blow air in it...it expands and no matter how hard you tie a knot at one of time it will deflate and go back to its normal shape..samething goes with the law of allah[swt] when he says that !!!


[79:30]

And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse)


[27:88]

And you will see the mountains and think them solid, but they shall pass away as the passing away of the clouds. The Work of Allah, Who perfected all things, verily! He is Well-Acquainted with what you do.

In one aayat allah[swt] uses the term cradle for earth...too bad I don't recollect the surah and aayat number here...but look how beautifully allah[swt] is trying to explain people how earth revolves around its own axis !!!....Youtube it a see by yourself ....when earth orbits around the sun while rotating around its own axis it surely resembles like the crable [that swings back and forth]

[shiraz.virani]

I believe strongly in Quran and very few Muslims doubt it's authenticity.
As a Muslim I am required to pray Salat 5 times a day. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to fast during Ramadan. Due to medical condition I cannot fast.
As a Muslim I am required to give zakat. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to perform Hujj once in life time. I have done that.
Eid Mubarak and Salaam

Eid mubarak to you too sister and congratulations for following the commands of god....but what do you want from ismailis ..... a COOKIE ????

Like seriously zznoor, as far as I know a true muslim is the one who doesn't make a show of his/her belief.

A true muslim is the one who always prays for the ummah 1st and ask anything for himself/herself 2nd

A true muslim is the one who whose kind words acts as a medicine to those in spiritual/material pain.

On this day, I hope and pray that may you have sunshine in your heart

[ShamsB]

Ismaili103

zznoor the great politician

you are converted frm ismaili to sunni you do good u are better than those who follow ismailism and attemping crime in ismailism (munafik) but now what u do is politics u r try your best to prove that ismailism is the big mistake and ismailis are enemy of islam.

just read ismaili history and then comment please a request..to you

If I left being this and that Muslim, I am still Muslim not Munafik.
I refuse to debate if Ismailism right or wrong.
I have read Ismaili History and understand it.

I cease to be this Muslim and that Muslim.
Now I am plain Muslim.
I believe strongly in Quran and very few Muslims doubt it's authenticity.
As a Muslim I am required to pray Salat 5 times a day. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to fast during Ramadan. Due to medical condition I cannot fast.
As a Muslim I am required to give zakat. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to perform Hujj once in life time. I have done that.
Eid Mubarak and Salaam

Ah - here we go again.

Here is what the Quran says on Salat - prayer.

Please show me 5x prayer.
Where are does it say 5x prayer?

وَاَقِمِ الصَّلٰوةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهَارِ وَزُلَـفًا مِّنَ الَّيۡلِ​ ؕ اِنَّ الۡحَسَنٰتِ يُذۡهِبۡنَ السَّيِّاٰتِ ​ؕ ذٰ لِكَ ذِكۡرٰى لِلذّٰكِرِيۡنَ ​ۚ‏ ﴿11:114﴾

(11:114) And establish the Prayer at the two ends of the day and in the first hours of the night.113 Indeed the good deeds drive away the evil deeds. This is a Reminder to those who are mindful of Allah.


Also in your 5x prayer how many surahs of the Quran do you end up reciting? 20? 4 surahs per salat?
We do 21 in our Dua's.

Like I said..

To you yours, to me mine.

Shams

[ShamsB]

I believe strongly in Quran and very few Muslims doubt it's authenticity.
As a Muslim I am required to pray Salat 5 times a day. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to fast during Ramadan. Due to medical condition I cannot fast.
As a Muslim I am required to give zakat. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to perform Hujj once in life time. I have done that.
Eid Mubarak and Salaam

Eid mubarak to you too sister and congratulations for following the commands of god....but what do you want from ismailis ..... a COOKIE ????

Like seriously zznoor, as far as I know a true muslim is the one who doesn't make a show of his/her belief.

A true muslim is the one who always prays for the ummah 1st and ask anything for himself/herself 2nd

A true muslim is the one who whose kind words acts as a medicine to those in spiritual/material pain.

On this day, I hope and pray that may you have sunshine in your heart

Btw - zznoor - I haven't done any of those things and nor do I intend to...does that make me nonmuslim in your eyes?
and a Kafiroon?
If so, can you then apply the ayat to me?

To you yours and to me mine?

Shams

[ShamsB]

Ismaili103

zznoor the great politician

you are converted frm ismaili to sunni you do good u are better than those who follow ismailism and attemping crime in ismailism (munafik) but now what u do is politics u r try your best to prove that ismailism is the big mistake and ismailis are enemy of islam.

just read ismaili history and then comment please a request..to you

If I left being this and that Muslim, I am still Muslim not Munafik.
I refuse to debate if Ismailism right or wrong.
I have read Ismaili History and understand it.

I cease to be this Muslim and that Muslim.
Now I am plain Muslim.
I believe strongly in Quran and very few Muslims doubt it's authenticity.
As a Muslim I am required to pray Salat 5 times a day. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to fast during Ramadan. Due to medical condition I cannot fast.
As a Muslim I am required to give zakat. I do.
As a Muslim I am required to perform Hujj once in life time. I have done that.
Eid Mubarak and Salaam

Oh and one more thing.

Surah Al Baqarah 2:256
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

Doesn't say anything about Hajj or Salat or Zakat or fasting etc.

All it says is ...Believes in Allah....

No compulsion...no force..all unconditionality.

Shams

[tret]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

agakhani - So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't know what he's talking about, right?

Let me ask you this: If you don't believe in the words of Allah and his Book, then why do you consider yourself to be a muslim? do you?

[a_27826]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

agakhani - So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't know what he's talking about, right?

Let me ask you this: If you don't believe in the words of Allah and his Book, then why do you consider yourself to be a muslim? do you?

When God says in 020:053 “He has made earth a bed for you”, It means He has made earth habitable for you because the verse continues saying “wherein He sends down water and brings forth various plants”

Similarly When God says in 007:041 “He has made Hell a bed for evildoers”, It means He has made Hell an abode for evildoers.

Translation is nothing but interpretation of a sentence from one language to another by the translator.

I am not very confortable with Yusuf Ali translations.

You can also refer 078:006 for further elaboration of 020:053

[tret]

Thanks a_27826 for your comments on Flat earth but if you have read those ayas carefully then I think you would not have wrote that The bed here (in context means) means some thing like a cradle to a child, Are Aallah talk about child? I do not think so. Sleeping bed always flat,it is still flat and it was flat during the prophet' ( PBUH) time, Do you sleep in round bed? bro, nobody can sleep on round flat and here Allah compare earth with bed which is remain always flat means Quran is not telling right thing!!.

agakhani - So basically what you are saying is that God doesn't know what he's talking about, right?

Let me ask you this: If you don't believe in the words of Allah and his Book, then why do you consider yourself to be a muslim? do you?

When God says in 020:053 “He has made earth a bed for you”, It means He has made earth habitable for you because the verse continues saying “wherein He sends down water and brings forth various plants”

Similarly When God says in 007:041 “He has made Hell a bed for evildoers”, It means He has made Hell an abode for evildoers.

Translation is nothing but interpretation of a sentence from one language to another by the translator.

I am not very confortable with Yusuf Ali translations.

You can also refer 078:006 for further elaboration of 020:053

I get it brother. I really do. I do understand that there's a batini meaning and moreal behind the literal translation of Qura'an.

That's the problem, everyone tries to analyze it their own way. i.e. agakhani makes one thing out of it where as it's totally something else, without realizing that Qura'an is full of symbolism and figurative languages and it's not analyzed and properly the entire context can be changed and different. for example, most orthodox muslims takes the literal translation of Qura'an. If we look at word 'Jehad', what/how would you analyze it? You give your version and I give mine. I bet you, we will come up with different versions, most probably. Same is true on each subject. That's the reason, why Imam-e Zaman (Imam-e Hazir) is always present at all times so the true interpretation is done to ummah.