Ethics and Morality

DilawarMomin · Post by **DilawarMomin** » Tue May 31, 2011 8:31 am

The traditonal religious ethics and morality presumes that whatever God orders must necessarily be correct.

Is morality derived from divine mandate or human experience and need?

Is something good or right because God orders so or is God orders because it is good or right?

Can any one give honest answer to The following question.

If God told me to kill somebody, would I do it?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue May 31, 2011 10:43 am

Code: Select all

 If God told me to kill somebody, would I do it?

Yes, you have to kill somebody, but wait if real God!!!?? really come face to face and tell you to kill someone in presence of me! ( not in dream), but..... it is not possible brother, not at all, why? NEITHER GOD COME IN TOUCH WITH ANY HUMAN BEING NOR HE TELL ANYONE TO KILL SOMEONE BECAUSE HE IS "KHALIQ" OF ALL MAKHLUQAT HE IS 'BAARI" OF ALL SOULS, WHO GIVE LIFE TO NEW SOUL EVERY MOMENTS, SO GOD CAN NOT TELL TO KILL SOMEONE OF HIS OWN CREATURE, SO, PLEASE DON'T KILL ANY INNOCENCE PEOPLE, JUST KIDDING

By the way, human eyes can not see God because God has no shape, God is only noor (light) which human eyes can not tolerate to see him.

Till today nobody has claim that he/she show the God, if he/she say so then they are lying, of course there are many peoples who are lucky enough to feel God's presence with them all the time , there are many peoples in our jamats also they see God's "NOOR" regularly in BANDGAI, but nobody has seen God face to face till today.

Where did you meet God? I want to meet him too ( not in dream but face to face) and want to make sure that whether he give me same command to kill someone or not!, just kidding bro

Post by **Admin** » Tue May 31, 2011 11:09 am

What was the reply of Prophet Abraham to this question?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue May 31, 2011 12:46 pm

If God told me to kill somebody, would I do it?

Bro Dilawar, your name itself is so powerful bhai !

Ok coming to your question and if i could add my 2 cents in this topic :

God = the creator can never go against the rules established by him , do you agree with this ?? If YES, then in the holy quran the same god said

" killing one human is like killing the whole MANKIND and saving one life is like saving the whole MANKIND " [this is my interpretation]

In the same quran god even warned those who kill their kids !

"Do not kill your kids as it is a sin for it is us[god] who will provide for you and them[kids]" [this is my interpretation]

So having said all this do you think god would tell you to do something that goes against his commands ?

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:46 am

Viru....Islam is a Religion ! Islamization is an ideology ! The ones who belong to the Ummat of Muhamad (saw) are NOT the same as those who may still be "muslims" but outside the Ummat itself due to their disobedience and kufr towards Muhamad (saw) and his ITRAT !!!!

Now explain to Dilawar and us, what is your take on the following ayats...and there are many....I have just picked a handful....also if you want I will be happy to show the history after Prophet's passing away vis a vis the wars of expansion which were brutal and thousands were killed and conversions done forcefully which is Unislamic and where the Prophet's family did not participate....that is why today there are accusations against us all that Islam was spread with the sword !!!

047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Holy Qur'an expressly says

"Allah does not forbid you to show kindness or to deal justly with those who did not fight against you on account of your religion and did not drive you out from your homes. Surely Allah does not love the unjust people" (Mumtahina, 60:

There was a clear breach of the above command ! Prophet fought wars of defense...not of aggression !

Those whose Pillar of faith is not ADL & Qist are Unjust ! why did they NOT keep this as a Pillar of their faith?

And Allah's Covenant also does NOT reach them for Allah is categorical in this regard and has called them ZALIMUN !!!

Islam does not say that good fellowship should be exclusively confined to the Muslims or that a Muslim should not be philanthropic to others who are non-muslims. ..but then Islam is not Islamization, if you will !

How could a religion, which, in the words of the Qur'an, has described its Prophet as a blessing to all the worlds, be full of violence ?

Actually the idea is that the Muslims must never be unmindful of the designs of the enemy despite his claim of friendship. ...be they from within or without !...and those from within who fund mosques with petro dollars are the most dangerous..

Muslimeen should always be vigilant and should not take the pretensions of these enemy on their face value.

A Muslim must regard himself as a member of the Muslim body politic and a part of the whole.

To be a member of a particular society automatically imposes certain conditions and limits.

They should in no way jeopardize their own independence and integrity. Hence the relations of a Muslim with the non-Muslims cannot be similar to those which he has with the fellow Muslims....but I would be very careful of the enemies from within...and this a very dangerous group !!!!..they will pretend and say "our Imam"....blah blah blah....to con and mislead the people...

The Holy Qur'an in case some of you understand has strictly warned the Muslims against accepting the friendship or tutelage of the Munafiqun and the enemies and especially those who come to you in the clothes of a sheep...

And particularly ones who are from within the fold of Islam are the MOST dangerous of them all !!!!....HE - the Exalted has devoted an entire Sura for them and their posterity to read and enjoy and it is known as Sura Munafiqun....and for you all to be cautious and wary of them !

This does not mean that Islam is in any way against the Muslims having good relations with their fellow human beings or it exhorts them to be always hostile to them or to the non-Muslims and not to do any good to them....but these Munafiqun will try and confuse your minds....because that is their deviant agenda for which they do get paid !

With the Quran also came MANIFEST PROOFS !

"We have indeed sent down Manifest Proofs" !

For those who claim unmediated and direct relationship....Allah says...

" Say: "Those without knowledge, why speaketh not Allah unto us or why cometh not unto us a sign?".....

"Their hearts are alike, WE have made clear Signs unto people who hold firmly to faith ."

Thus those who truly have faith will recognize the Manifest Proofs !

but these hypocrites will ask you how are you able to "recognize"? the intent is to sow seeds of doubt in your minds...isn't it obvious...how did they recognize their own father? ask them ! who gave them this recognition ? wasn't it their mother? and so were they too not able to recognize their fathers or did they question their mother too? OR maybe they did a DNA test ?

49:[29] Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers

The Hypocrites are NOT the followers of Muhamad (saw) ! rather they are the enemies of Islam within Islam ! They have been retained as peddlars to defame Islam and confuse the people !

When the Prophet (saw) has branded them as MINNIONS OF SATAN, and has disowned them and they betrayed him soon after his passing away how can they convince anyone that they even belong to his Ummat?

They should stop dreaming and fooling people !

Zinat Khan

[/b]

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:15 am

...also if you want I will be happy to show the history after Prophet's passing away vis a vis the wars of expansion which were brutal and thousands were killed and conversions done forcefully which is Unislamic and where the Prophet's family did not participate....that is why today there are accusations against us all that Islam was spread with the sword !!!

Zinat,
Thanks for the straight forward talk and your willingness to write the truth; what was happened after the death of Prophet Mohammaed (S.A) killing thousand and thousand innocent peoples by Khalifa Umar, that wars were not necessary but it were fought aimlessly, I KNOW THE HISTORY SO I DO NOT ASK YOU TO WRITE IT HERE AGAIN .
Sister, Not long ago, I wrote little bit true facts about Hazarat Umar during Jang Ohad but, even though it was 100% true and it was taken from reliable Shia sources it was deleted, why? Admin wrote that this may read Sunnis from Google and Yahoo search engine, my question, why we should hide when truth is truth?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:50 am

Zinat,
Thanks for the straight forward talk and your willingness to write the truth; what was happened after the death of Prophet Mohammaed (S.A) killing thousand and thousand innocent peoples by Khalifa Umar, that wars were not necessary but it were fought aimlessly, I KNOW THE HISTORY SO I DO NOT ASK YOU TO WRITE IT HERE AGAIN .
Sister, Not long ago, I wrote little bit true facts about Hazarat Umar during Jang Ohad but, even though it was 100% true and it was taken from reliable Shia sources it was deleted, why? Admin wrote that this may read Sunnis from Google and Yahoo search engine, my question, why we should hide when truth is truth?

Bro agakhani....your posts usually are deleted by admin only if they are against others faith....Just like me and zina.khan were talking about DRINKING and since she couldnt respond to my logical question ,she dumped garbage after garbage and she did the same thing @ above.....This way we create hatred among fellow muslims [whichever sect they belong to] .....now zina.khan is sitting here in USA but her posts might be read by some retarded mullah who is a hardcore fundamentalist and this might backfire on those innocent ismailis that reside in certain parts of pakistan.....this is the only reason why your posts are deleted.....I remember once when admin said that this forum is all about sharing information and learning...well thats what we should aim at doing and not dumping unnecessary garbage which is usually time consuming and most of the time copy/pasted without even reading what in their

Hope I answered your question on admins behalf

Post by **Admin** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:50 am

Admin is not afraid of Sunni or Shias. This Forum is regulated though we leave a lot of freedom to people however creating controversies, using foull language etc... is enough for the posts to be deleted. Unfortunately we can not clog this Forum by always explaining why such and such post has been deleted.

Rules of posting are on this Forum and people are requested to read them frequently as we update each time there is a new type of situation is occurring.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:02 am

Viru....I have already given a response on drinking and you are on purpose making misleading statements and frankly there is no need for you to try and speak on behalf of admin either as your designs are and dubiety is clear...but then this isn't a Bohra Reform Group where you curry favours with the admin and derail your opponents...so go back and read my posts properly and don't waste my time....

Yes! after the prophet's death wars of aggression were fought using the sword and thousands were brutally butchered....and frankly the Mullahs need to accept this as a reality and a historical fact and your own Muawiyan tactics don't bother anyone one bit Viru ....truth is truth !

The real man is one who is hospitable. This does not mean that he will be like a lion at another's table, or like a fox. His face is always friendly. He has a true love for and perfect faith in the Imam of his time. He tries to attain that lasting wealth, the recognition of the Imam of the time. He is benevolent and well-behaved, as one should be, being kind and
friendly to the friends and devotees ('ÀshiqÀn) of that (MawlÀ).

The qualities of the real man are such that he has the time to do all his work. Calamities will go far from him, and his enemies will be blind. His daily bread will be plentiful, he will have success and blessing in his work which will always be successful. His children will be healthy and pious, and his house prosperous.

He will always be in time to do his work, and God the All-Forgiving will help him. The help of God will mean that the mirror of his heart
will not be rusty, his faith will grow stronger, and his activities will be honest, his earnings will be lawful, and it will be from lawful sources that he will spend in the way of God.

His good will reach the pure spirits of the believers and faithful and pious men.

Lawful earnings are not the lot of hypocrites, they will not reach the unclean spirits of such people....Viru, you cannot fool anyone, however hard you try...and I am least bothered about Mullahs and Muftis....

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:12 am

Viru....Islam is a Religion ! Islamization is an ideology ! The ones who belong to the Ummat of Muhamad (saw) are NOT the same as those who may still be "muslims" but outside the Ummat itself due to their disobedience and kufr towards Muhamad (saw) and his ITRAT !!!!

Now explain to Dilawar and us, what is your take on the following ayats...and there are many....I have just picked a handful....also if you want I will be happy to show the history after Prophet's passing away vis a vis the wars of expansion which were brutal and thousands were killed and conversions done forcefully which is Unislamic and where the Prophet's family did not participate....that is why today there are accusations against us all that Islam was spread with the sword !!!

047.004
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

The Holy Qur'an expressly says

"Allah does not forbid you to show kindness or to deal justly with those who did not fight against you on account of your religion and did not drive you out from your homes. Surely Allah does not love the unjust people" (Mumtahina, 60:

There was a clear breach of the above command ! Prophet fought wars of defense...not of aggression !

Those whose Pillar of faith is not ADL & Qist are Unjust ! why did they NOT keep this as a Pillar of their faith?

And Allah's Covenant also does NOT reach them for Allah is categorical in this regard and has called them ZALIMUN !!!

Islam does not say that good fellowship should be exclusively confined to the Muslims or that a Muslim should not be philanthropic to others who are non-muslims. ..but then Islam is not Islamization, if you will !

How could a religion, which, in the words of the Qur'an, has described its Prophet as a blessing to all the worlds, be full of violence ?

Actually the idea is that the Muslims must never be unmindful of the designs of the enemy despite his claim of friendship. ...be they from within or without !...and those from within who fund mosques with petro dollars are the most dangerous..

Muslimeen should always be vigilant and should not take the pretensions of these enemy on their face value.

A Muslim must regard himself as a member of the Muslim body politic and a part of the whole.

To be a member of a particular society automatically imposes certain conditions and limits.

They should in no way jeopardize their own independence and integrity. Hence the relations of a Muslim with the non-Muslims cannot be similar to those which he has with the fellow Muslims....but I would be very careful of the enemies from within...and this a very dangerous group !!!!..they will pretend and say "our Imam"....blah blah blah....to con and mislead the people...

The Holy Qur'an in case some of you understand has strictly warned the Muslims against accepting the friendship or tutelage of the Munafiqun and the enemies and especially those who come to you in the clothes of a sheep...

And particularly ones who are from within the fold of Islam are the MOST dangerous of them all !!!!....HE - the Exalted has devoted an entire Sura for them and their posterity to read and enjoy and it is known as Sura Munafiqun....and for you all to be cautious and wary of them !

This does not mean that Islam is in any way against the Muslims having good relations with their fellow human beings or it exhorts them to be always hostile to them or to the non-Muslims and not to do any good to them....but these Munafiqun will try and confuse your minds....because that is their deviant agenda for which they do get paid !

With the Quran also came MANIFEST PROOFS !

"We have indeed sent down Manifest Proofs" !

For those who claim unmediated and direct relationship....Allah says...

" Say: "Those without knowledge, why speaketh not Allah unto us or why cometh not unto us a sign?".....

"Their hearts are alike, WE have made clear Signs unto people who hold firmly to faith ."

Thus those who truly have faith will recognize the Manifest Proofs !

but these hypocrites will ask you how are you able to "recognize"? the intent is to sow seeds of doubt in your minds...isn't it obvious...how did they recognize their own father? ask them ! who gave them this recognition ? wasn't it their mother? and so were they too not able to recognize their fathers or did they question their mother too? OR maybe they did a DNA test ?

49:[29] Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers

The Hypocrites are NOT the followers of Muhamad (saw) ! rather they are the enemies of Islam within Islam ! They have been retained as peddlars to defame Islam and confuse the people !

When the Prophet (saw) has branded them as MINNIONS OF SATAN, and has disowned them and they betrayed him soon after his passing away how can they convince anyone that they even belong to his Ummat?

They should stop dreaming and fooling people !

Zinat Khan

This is the 2nd time sister zina.khan actually made sense and I congratulate her for this !!

It is a common complaint among some muslims and non-Muslims that Islam would not have millions of adherents all over the world, if it had not been spread by the use of force. The following points will make it clear, that far from being spread by the sword, it was Islam’s inherent force of truth, reason and logic that was responsible for its rapid spread.

Today the world in which we live in is full of zina.khan who do only what they feel is correct and sometimes even impose their views on others.....But I have to appreciate her effort to write these lengthy and time consuming articles which she is good at.......But the bottom line for sister zina.khan is that only ismailis are tolerant and the rest of the ummah is violent....For sister zina.khan the conditions in which the innocent palestines live arised due to religious issue.....The conditions in which kashmiris live in India arised due to religious issues.....The conditions in which Pakistanis live in pakistan arised due to religious issues.....The conditions in which Iraqis live in Iraq today was caused due to religious issues.....The condition in which the afghanis live in afghanistan was caused due to religious issues.....The conditions in which libyans live in libya today was caused due to religious issues.....the conditions in which the egyptians live today was caused due to religious issues and I can go on and on..... But are these problems really caused by religious issues ???

Lets see what agakhan has to say

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Gn_hueFt8

I dedicate this video to all those who are as confused as sister zina.khan who quoted certain aayats from the holy quran that talks about non muslims who used to fight with muslims and wanted them to follow that which they follow

The noted historian De Lacy O’Leary in the book “Islam at the cross roads” writes (Page

:

“History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.”

As usual zina.khan would only show that part that supports her arguement like those hypocrite arab sheikhs who are the paid agents of the west

Does sister zina.khan know that muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the ‘adhaan’, that is the Muslims’ call for prayers.

Does sister zina.khan know that for a few years the British rulers, and for a few years the French rulers ruled arabia, but overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million[as many as ismaili jamat worldwide] Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword, there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

Does sister zina.khan know that the muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. These Muslim rulers did not use any force in order to convert people to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India consists of non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are testimony today that Islam was not spread by the sword, nor was any force used for conversion to Islam.

Does sister zina.khan know that Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

I can go on and on but onething that sister zina.khan said and I do agree is that those who rule innocent muslims are super duper corrupt....These saudi king is the same person who pays protection money to the west.....But just because small amount of people have sold their soul that doesnt mean the whole ummah is corrupt.....Just because mr.zardari is called mr.10 % that doesnt mean that pakistan as and whole is corrupt !!!

And once again I dunno where you got this DNA stuff.....I never said agakhan is a false imam or anything....Kindly stay on one topic rather than jumping from one topic to another.

Today many people fear that the nukes can get into the hands of muslims...lol....Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson rightly says, “People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMAD[saw] was born”.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:46 pm

Viru....isn't it becoming abundantly clear that you are not an Ismaili ?
Are you talking from the left side or the right end of your mouth?

Please show me where and when did I even say that Ismailis are the only ones who are peaceful? No ! I haven't ! Ofcourse you like to obfuscate and offer twisted versions of the truth...

Really? am I imposing? how? is it because I am not letting you have your way?

Try and read the articles below by going to the website of "Answering Ansar"...and read about the brutality which occurred soon after the passing away of the Prophet (saw)...there are many such historical facts which you are cunningly trying to sweep under the carpet....

You will learn how Caliph Aboo Bakr's "Muslim" commander butchered a companion of the Prophet and his tribe only because he questioned about their right to caliphate... and read how this sahaba's wife was raped like a donkey...it is all there in black and white...when Umar and Ali complained to Aboo Bakr he did not take any action...when Umar took over the caliphate Khaleed was fired !....I am not saying this...I am showing you parts of history which you, as a muslim, should know and not hide from others...let me know when you are done....we can then look at how Hindus were massacred and forcefully converted in INDIA...

Google Answering.Ansar ..it is all there !

1.CHAPTER ONE - INTRODUCTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
2.CHAPTER TWO - THE INCIDENT OF KHALID KILLING SAHABI MALIK BIN
N UWAYRAH AND COMMITTING ZINA WITH HIS WIDOW . .

3.CHAPTER THREE - FURTHER INCIDENTS EXPOSING THE NASIBISM AND
H OOLIGAN MENTALITY OF KHALID . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Allowing the OIC States to oversee individual human rights is like putting the fox to guard on the chickens.

Life in the OIC countries is the reason why millions of Muslims have
escaped and taken refuge in Europe and North America.

We muslim who live in the West are testament of your failures.

The despots rule their populations with a sense of entitlement that they believe is their God-given right, and millions suffer under their tutelage.

The Supreme Leaders and Kings of the Islamic Republics claim they
are answerable only to Allah...they either oppress in "God's name" or
in the name of American sponsored moderation...

The result for the ordinary Muslim is the same: the complete absence of human dignity ...and this then is Unislamic !

The use of Islam to slaughter fellow Muslims is not a new phenomenon.

In 1965 Islamist vigilantes massacred a million of their fellow countrymen in Indonesia; in 1971 Pakistani armed forces conducted a genocide that killed one million Muslim Bangladeshis in the name of Islam.

In 1979 an Islamist Military man, General Zia ul Haq who presented himself as the ultimate saviour of Islam, hanged the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan.

Five years later, the Sudanese Islamists and the Muslim Brotherhood hanged the great Islamic scholar Muhammad Mahmood Taha after accusing him of apostasy.

Muslims are able to practise their faith as they deem fit in a country where the community is less than 3% of the population, yet is treated as equals.

Why should Muslims only enjoy human rights and freedom of expression
to discuss their own religion where they live as minorities, yet never
be able to do so where they form a majority?

I would contend that my religion Islam demands that I stand up to bullies like you Viru and take away from from you the right to put padlocks on poetry and chastity belts on independent thinking.

If your cult continue to pour millions into western countries and to promote Islamism, then don’t complain if we Muslims join our fellow citizens and put your political ideology to scrutiny.

Islamism is nothing more than the use of Islam to secure power over an already marginalized community of Muslims.

Those who behead people in public and stone women to death, practise apartheid in their Kingdom and wave the sword of apostasy over the heads of their fellow Muslim critics, should be the last people to
speak on behalf of Islam of Muhamad (saw) !

How many prisoners are locked up in Muslim prisons for their opinions,
ideas, and cultural identity?

Is it in the spirit of Islam that Muslims are fleeing their homeland for 'heretical' countries in order to attain security and live in dignity?... Is it in the spirit of Islam to be silent in the face of the tyranny of Muslim rulers?

Is it in the spirit of Islam that one family should rule over an entire people?

Is it in the spirit of Islam that some Muslim countries' leaders abound in magnificent palaces while 60% of their population is illiterate and poor ?

Is it in the spirit of Islam to turn a blind eye to several profligate
actions and deeds of your leaders, whose programs make a mockery of religion and morality?...

The history which I will show is not of the time when your Aboos were 'agents" of the West.....

BENI HASHEM and BENI FATEMA were persecuted bitterly and thousands were killed by the rulers of BENI Omayya and BENI Abbass !

Even the FADAK of the Prophet's beloved daughter was confiscated...Beni Hashem was stopped from collecting KHUMS !

BENI Hashem were replaced with people like Sufiyan and Muaviya in key positions and they later on became "Kings" in Islam !!!! Lol !

Numerous original ahadiths were burnt ! Lots of interference in religion or the DEEN itself...changes to the Shariat ...Read the reports of Ahmad bin Jarir al-Baladhuri in his FUTUH al-Baldan that even Zakat was being accepted at the double rate from Christian tribes of Banu Taghleb living in al-Jazira....Islam forbids accepting zakat from non-muslims !

Read the works of a SUNNI erudite Shibli Nomani (Siratun Nabi) - Vol 1 - page 13)...you will read about the Bidats which had occured...the rulers used to force the scholars like Imam Zohri and Obaid to write what they liked...

Marwan ordered Saeed bin Jubair to write "tafseer" of the quran which then was placed in the Royal Library !

Imam Zohri and Imam Bukhari (who was Zohri's student) were often invited to the courts of the rulers and gained favours just the way you try to do on forums using your gift of the gab..

Read nahjul balagha - part 1 - page 37 by Ibn Abil Hadeed - Imam Zohri was against Ali (as) and that is why he was honoured by the Ummayyads...

This is history....not me saying all this...then Read the works of maulvi Abdus salam Nadvi (Tarikhul Fiqahil Islam - page 239)...only those ahadith which the rulers wanted was being accepted and they took all thatwas popular with the Shaikeen i.e. enemies of Muhamad (saw) and his family !

There was a reign of terror and torture...followers of Beni Hashem were being eradicated systematically...no jobs were being given to them...they were simply being put to death....many lovers of Ahl al bayt were murdered...

In the mosques muslims used to curse Imam Ali and abuse him...and anyone who praised Ali was killed instantly...

Read the report of Abdul H Ali bin Muhamad Abil saif al-madiani....Beni hashem and those who loved them were weeded out in Kufa and killed or sometimes brutally tortured...their hands used to be cut off...their limbs amputated....sometimes their eye balls were pulled out or they were hanged on trees....and almost no Sh'ia remained alive in Iraq...

Viru master the list is long....for too long hypocrites have suppressed the truth...

What about the almost 1000 years rule of the Fatimid? how come you are afraid to mention this glorious period of islam? How do you know that there are only 15 million Ismailis? Regardless did the prophet not say that only a small jamat of mine will stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:59 pm

What about the almost 1000 years rule of the Fatimid? how come you are afraid to mention this glorious period of islam? How do you know that there are only 15 million Ismailis? Regardless did the prophet not say that only a small jamat of mine will stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem?

Are but why would I say or talk about fatimids when you asked me about other muslims ??

Iam not afraid of anything sister....If you ask me something about A I wont give you an answer that is related to B !!!.....Fatimids are the bestest example of pluralism and the interview of MHI is nothing but his pluralistic view of islam as and whole and that is what I was trying to show you !!!

Not all muslims are bad muslims.....and yes I do agree with you that the holy prophet[saw] did told us during his last sermon to hold on to the rope of allah[imamat] and I have nothing against the imamat......However I do have some doubts regarding certain things which I have already mentioned in new topic called PROBLEM in CURRENT TOPICS

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:50 pm

and sister whatever you copy/pasted from answering ansar is true but how is it related to religion ??

If one family is ruling for ages how could you blame islam for that ??
If one family migrates for $$$ how could you blame islam for that ??
If some prime minister of pakistan killed a fellow muslims how could you blame islam for that ??
If the pakistani army marched into bangldesh and killed innocent civilians, how could you blame islam for that ??

All your questions are legit but what I dont agree sister is that you're framing islam = violence where as all the incidents that you are relating @ above posts were all politically motivated and not religiously !!.... and just because certain elements in islam are corrupt how can you blame islam for that ?? And this is what the imam said in that interview !!

If H.abu bakr[RA] was unjust to H.Bibi Fatima[as] in giving her fathers share after his demise then that means he wanted to be in power !!!.....If H.Ali[as] was not treated as the rightful khalifa then again this means that there was politics involved which we all agree !!!.....But how could you blame islam for all this ??

Answering ansar is a very informative ishna shari website but not everything what they say is the truth sister

you might visit lies of answering ansar

And you know what is funny....you sound more like pro bush govt supporter who killed over quarter million iraqis on the pack of lies !!!.......One should stop and ask how many muslims has taken refuge or are refugees from the country which the USA has bombed ???

You dont even know the histroy of how the muslims actually landed here in USA

It is almost impossible to generalize about American Muslims: converts, immigrants, factory workers, doctors; all are making their own contribution to America's future. This complex community is unified by a common faith, underpinned by a countrywide network of a thousand mosques.

Muslims were early arrivals in North America... by the eighteenth century there were many thousands of them, working as slaves on plantations. These early communities, cut off from their heritage and families, inevitably lost their Islamic identity as time went by. Today many Afro-American Muslims play an important role in the Islamic community.

In 1947 the Washington Islamic Center was founded during the term of President Truman, and several nationwide organizations were set up in the fifties. The same period saw the establishment of other communities whose lives were in many ways modeled after Islam. More recently, numerous members of these groups have entered the fold of Muslim orthodoxy. Today there are about five million Muslims in America and growing !!!!

Islam is growing in the west not because of any force or sword....its growing because the USA presence in their country is felt by those living here.....this makes the citizens of this country to learn about islam and its fundamentals and this is how more and more people are choosing islam as their faith....blacks,whites,mexicans and so on !!!

And those who stone woman/butcher man in the name ofi slam are neither my people nor yours !!!......These people have lost their soul and the holy quran is veryyy clear sister for it says If you kill any innocent human being its like killing the whole mankind.

Is it in the spirit of Islam that Muslims are fleeing their homeland for 'heretical' countries in order to attain security and live in dignity?... Is it in the spirit of Islam to be silent in the face of the tyranny of Muslim rulers?

Its a shame !!.....But the people are not leaving their land because they think its islam thats forcing them.....its those vested in power [political leaders] who torture them.....but as i said last time....you cannot treat all muslims the same way !!!

Soooo ???.......Just because imam zohri was anti imam ali[as] , we all should hate him ???.........You're anti sunni should I should sunni's hate ismailis ?? Is this how you promote pluralism ??

I dont have to glorify fatimids just to prove their tolerant nature, their work speaks for itself !!!

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:26 pm

You were raving and ranting about how sweet and tolerant muslims were or have been towards others in society and you began to throw some examples also....trying to make it sound like I was on a witch hunt....now you concede and you are asking a silly question as to how all this relates to Islam? Ofcourse it does as people were looted, killed, raped, and forced to embrace Islam and Prophet (saw) never ever said that this should be done ! Now suddenly you are trying to call all this politics....Islam is a way of life....our behaviour and day to day actions must conform to the shariat and tenets of Islam....issues about Kshmir and Palestine are primarily political issues which now have become overlapped with faith issues....and yet you raved and ranted that they were "religious" issues....c'mon Viru....stop being dishonest !

Frankly I am not framing Islam....I am complaining about the Shaikeen who hijacked Islam...forcefully grabbed the Caliphate....and did actionable wrongs in the name of Islam and the prophet and have dragged the Prophet's name thro' mud....and their agents still do so....Islam is a peaceful religion and that is why the majority are peaceloving people...so who gave you this bright and fanciful idea that I am talking about Islam of Muhamad ? Notat all !

Islam of the Shaikeen is NOT Islam of the Prophet (saw).....

"SAY: ye submit but faith has as yet NOT entered your hearts..."

Allah has sent an entire sura for you and your posterity to read and enjoy....Sura Munafiqun ! enjoy ![/b]

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:12 am

You were raving and ranting about how sweet and tolerant muslims were or have been towards others in society and you began to throw some examples also....trying to make it sound like I was on a witch hunt....now you concede and you are asking a silly question as to how all this relates to Islam? Ofcourse it does as people were looted, killed, raped, and forced to embrace Islam and Prophet (saw) never ever said that this should be done ! Now suddenly you are trying to call all this politics....Islam is a way of life....our behaviour and day to day actions must conform to the shariat and tenets of Islam....issues about Kshmir and Palestine are primarily political issues which now have become overlapped with faith issues....and yet you raved and ranted that they were "religious" issues....c'mon Viru....stop being dishonest !

All I said was that there are certain elements within the islam [small minority] who are paid agents of the west and whose main intention is to rule !!!.....Now as always you'll try to put words in my mouth but once again its not gonna work sister.....You're not a witch hunt sister premarital....you're tryin to be like those fundamentalist mullahs who when are approached in peace try to accuse you, your religion and so on....its ok as i said last time, its your fitrat and that cannot be changed unless and until allah[swt] wants it to happen

The issue of palestine has nothing ..............nothing to do with islam.....these people are the very same people who when Hitler was on a spree of butchering jews[even agakhan III was in favor of supporting hitler] welcomed jews with open hands.....these are the very same palestinians who not only allowed jews to stay but were also tolerant against their religion !!!!.......and after few years this very same palestinians were kicked out from their homeland !!!!!

Jus imagine you lemme stay in your house and after a while I kick you out of your house....how would you feel ???.......Was this kicking you out of your house has anything to do with my faith ??? NO !!!!! .....Similarly the position that the palestinians are in today is politically motivated and has nothing to do with religions.....But ignorant people like you who always copy/paste from other sects will never understand this as theres no such thing called LOGIC in your dictionary

Frankly I am not framing Islam....I am complaining about the Shaikeen who hijacked Islam...forcefully grabbed the Caliphate....and did actionable wrongs in the name of Islam and the prophet and have dragged the Prophet's name thro' mud....and their agents still do so....Islam is a peaceful religion and that is why the majority are peaceloving people...so who gave you this bright and fanciful idea that I am talking about Islam of Muhamad ? Notat all !

Your words you fool.....the garbage that you throw out in the air sometimes gets back at you and hit you in the face !!!.............Islam is always peaceful and this is what i have been saying you dumb*** !!!........Its certain amount of people who are power hungry....who dont wanna give up their posts are the one who ignite this fire of hatred, war,jihad and what not !!!

But I do agree that If I let somebody stay in my house and that person kicks me out of my own house....then theres no mercy from my side !!!!

Islam of the Shaikeen is NOT Islam of the Prophet (saw).....

Out of over 1 billion population and still growing....how many according to you are shaikeen sister and how many are the followers of the teachings of rasool[saw] ??

"SAY: ye submit but faith has as yet NOT entered your hearts...

Allah has sent an entire sura for you and your posterity to read and enjoy....Sura Munafiqun ! enjoy !

You do shirkh and you're tagging me as a munafiq......what a hypocrite !!!

Post by **Admin** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:09 am

I do not see much ethics in the way discussions are going here. When any Forum turns to dispute between 2 people were all other users are left out, we request bot to have their discussion by email. if this can not be done, this subject will be closed within a couple of days.

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:49 am

Viru...You are talking about a minority within a minority whereas I am talking of both !...you are trying to merely talk about those handful of elements today....but corruption and nepotism originates and is inherited from where and when?

"..But I do agree that If I let somebody stay in my house and that person kicks me out of my own house....then theres no mercy from my side !!!!..."

Bingo ! This is what exactly happened to the prophet (saw) and his family and followers...by the Umayyads and the Abbassids ! and today by their remnants who are ruling over you and control your actions...Thanks..

and bye bye...

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:28 am

This Forum is regulated though we leave a lot of freedom to people however creating controversies, using foull language etc

Admin,
For your info, I read Rules for this Forum many times and therefore I bet you brother Admin you or anybody else will not find any bad language in my any post any where not only this forum but other many forum I visit (on and off)as well but..
let me ask you and brother Shiraz one question here, why should we Ismailis tolerate the bad and foul languages from other forum readers using towards our Imam, our faith, our tariqa? they always criticise us and tell us that 'WE ARE KAFIR"are you visiting any Sunny/Shia forum? if not go over their some time brothers and read their post.
Are not those forum create controversies? why we Ismailis are quite? doesn't our Imam say that we have to come forward and tell other Muslims that we are on right path? and our religion is Islam same like yours? Why should we have to hide the historical truth?
If you answer my above questions then it will be fine if not it is OK because I don't want to create big issue of this.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:36 am

Admin,
For your info, I read Rules for this Forum many times and therefore I bet you brother Admin you or anybody else will not find any bad language in my any post any where not only this forum but other many forum I visit (on and off)as well but..
let me ask you and brother Shiraz one question here, why should we Ismailis tolerate the bad and foul languages from other forum readers using towards our Imam, our faith, our tariqa? they always criticise us and tell us that 'WE ARE KAFIR"are you visiting any Sunny/Shia forum? if not go over their some time brothers and read their post.
Are not those forum create controversies? why we Ismailis are quite? doesn't our Imam say that we have to come forward and tell other Muslims that we are on right path? and our religion is Islam same like yours? Why should we have to hide the historical truth?
If you answer my above questions then it will be fine if not it is OK because I don't want to create big issue of this.

I cannot speak on admins behalf....but as far as i know admin bhai was referring me and zina.khan .....and regarding other non ismaili forums.....brother agakhani these so called forums have degraded themselves to such extent that I once came across a photo which is suppose to be Hugh Hefner with her playmates....some fool copy pasted the photo[face] of our imam[agakhan] and tried to show the world ...look how agakhan fancies woman and other bull shit !!

Brother agakhani when a person can fall to such standards that he/she would use any means to downgrade our sect ...would you like to talk to them or teach them ???......and even if you do so, will they listen or understand ??

If at all we wanna educate people....we should educate our people 1st and then others....lemme give you my example....I dint knew that there were different kinds of dua in the past....Why ??? ....Because I never asked or should I say never cared to understand our history !!....what happened ?? I started thinking that dua that we say is different from namaz and today after 30 years I realised that no....the batini dua or the dua that we say has been there since the time of alamut or may be even before that !!!

So in order to reach out to people we should reach out for our own people

Hope I answered your question brother

zina.khan · Post by **zina.khan** » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:10 am

1. SHRAVAN BHAKTI The listening of HOLY GINANS and HOLY FIRMANS.

2. KIRTAN BHAKTI The reciting of HOLY GINANS and reading of HOLY
FIRMANS.

3. SMARAN The Remembrance of the HOLY NAME of "NOOR-EN-ALLAH-NOOR".

4. CHARAN SEVAN The Offering and Submission of oneself as the humble
servant of our Beloved HAZAR IMAM.

5. ARCHAN The worshipping of THE "NOOR-EN-ALLAH NOOR" .

6. VANDAN The prostration before THE "NOOR-EN-ALLAH NOOR" .

7. DASATVA The rendering of sincere services to the HOLY HOUSE of HAZAR IMAM.

8. SAKHYA The attainment of closeness to the DIVINE
"NOOR".

9. ATMA AMAR The Absolute Surrender, with DEEP LOVE, to HAZAR IMAM and the Imam of the time !

People are prone to committing the "assimilation of the dissimulation to what it dissimulates"....

If the prostration of the angels to Adam and that of the sons of Jacob did not take the taint of idolatrous worship, then our slavehood and servitude is only to Allah through the RIGHTFUL Imams !

MAN KUNTUM MAWLAHU FA ALIUN MAWLAHU !
He of whom I am the Mowla, Ali is his Mowla

Umar disobeyed the Holy Prophet when the prophet asked for a parchment and pen on his deathbed to dictate instructions which would have saved the Umma from going astray..as a man arose to give this parchment and pen to the Prophet, Umar made him sit down saying.."this man (the prophet) is delirious...the Book of Allah is sufficient for us...this behaviour has now left the Umma fragmented with variant versions !

Prophet Noah invokes Allah with Blessed Names

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In July 1951, while a group of Soviet archaeologists were digging in an area in the valley of "KIEV", they discovered a scattered pieces of ancient wood, touched by the woodworm.

This great discovery made them to dig deeper and deeper, till they discovered another group of stony ancient wood that were further deep in the earth.

A block of wood in the shape of a square 14 knots long and 10 knots wide. What made those archaeologists puzzled most, was the unchangeable shape, the ineffectual of woodworm and it did not scatter like the other pieces of wood.

In later 1952, the investigation regarding the archeological group of ancient wood, had completed.

They had concluded that the above-mentioned block of wood was part of Prophet's Noah ark.

They'd observed some letters engraved which goes back to the most ancient language that ever evolved on the surface of the earth.

In 1953 the digging operations had finished and the Russian government had formed a committee of seven scientists (archeologist, linguistic), some of which are:

1. Sawlot Naoev, professor at Moscow University.
2. Tanmova Kourov, professor of Linguistics at Kevenzo College.
3. De Racon, professor of Archeology at Lenin institute.
4. Mr. Taumol Goru, Teacher, Cafezud College
5. Major Cottor, Stalin College.
6. Mr. M. Ahmed Colad,Zitcomen Research Association
7. Prof. Ifa Han Kheeno, Lu Lu Han College China
and others

After eight months of research and study of that block of wood and the letters engraved upon it, they agreed that this block of wood was made of the same material which prophet Noah's ark was made of and that Prophet Noah had placed this block of wood in his ark for blessings and protection during his journey with his companions and family during the Flood.

The letters engraved upon the block of wood were in the Semitic Language which was translated into English by the British scientist; Aief Max , professor of ancient tongue at Manchester University, England. The letters states the following:

"Oh my God, my Helper, in Your mercy and generosity help me, and for the sake of these holy souls: Muhammed, Elia, Shoppar, Shappair, Fatimah who are all great and blessed.

The Universe is there for them, help me for their names. Only you can guide us to the straight path".

It's obvious dear reader that Elia, Shoppar, Shappair are names in the Semitic language and their Arabic rendering is: Ali, Hassan, Husayn.

The mysterious and ambiguous thing which the committee couldn't explain or understand were, that it did not scatter or turn out stoney like others, despite the fact that thousands of years had passed upon it.

Dear Reader: at the "Museum of Archeology", in Moscow, Russia this can be seen and observed.

So many people have witnessed the piece of wood. If you happen to visit or travel to Russia, pay a visit to that place to see by your own eyes the greatness of these names.

And to know that the Prophet of Islam was mentioned in the Torah and the Bible thousands of years ago.

The translation was documented in the following newspapers:

1. Weekly-Mirror: UK, 28/12/53
2. Star of Britain: London, 1/54
3. Manchester Sunlight: Manchester, 23/1/54
4. London Weekly Mirror: 1/2/54
5. Bathrah Najaf: Iraq, 2/2/54
6. Al-Huda: Cairo, 31/3/54

Source: Al-Zahra Magaazine

We also have ahadith from Imams telling us the Prophets invoked Panjtan Pak, so that is enough proof. Any other proof is additional, see the pictures.

Until Allah opens your hearts to the real love of Ahlul Bayt and not the "fake" love, TRUTH will evade you.

"(Remember) the day when We will summon every people with their Imam; then whosoever is given his book in his right hand, then these shall read their book (joyfully) and they shall not be dealt with unjustly".(17:71)...

"And We made them Imams guiding people by Our command and We revealed to them the doing of good and keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve" (21:73).

"And We made Imams among them to guide by Our command when they were patient and they were certain of Our signs" (32:24).

"And We desired to bestow a favour upon those who were deemed weak in the land, and to make them the Imams and to make them heirs" (28:5).

[/b]

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 19, 2011 3:37 pm

December 18, 2011, 6:00 pm
Good Minus God
By LOUISE M. ANTONY

I was heartened to learn recently that atheists are no longer the most reviled group in the United States: according to the political scientists Robert Putnam and David Campbell, we’ve been overtaken by the Tea Party. But even as I was high-fiving my fellow apostates (“We’re number two! We’re number two!”), I was wondering anew: why do so many people dislike atheists?

Atheism does not entail that anything goes. Quite the opposite.

I gather that many people believe that atheism implies nihilism — that rejecting God means rejecting morality. A person who denies God, they reason, must be, if not actively evil, at least indifferent to considerations of right and wrong. After all, doesn’t the dictionary list “wicked” as a synonym for “godless?” And isn’t it true, as Dostoevsky said, that “if God is dead, everything is permitted”?

Well, actually — no, it’s not. (And for the record, Dostoevsky never said it was.) Atheism does not entail that anything goes.

Admittedly, some atheists are nihilists. (Unfortunately, they’re the ones who get the most press.) But such atheists’ repudiation of morality stems more from an antecedent cynicism about ethics than from any philosophical view about the divine. According to these nihilistic atheists, “morality” is just part of a fairy tale we tell each other in order to keep our innate, bestial selfishness (mostly) under control. Belief in objective “oughts” and “ought nots,” they say, must fall away once we realize that there is no universal enforcer to dish out rewards and punishments in the afterlife. We’re left with pure self-interest, more or less enlightened.

More....

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... n&emc=tya1