yar according to my knowledge please correct me if i m rong
Gujrati dua was not given by Imam of that Time
infect it was given by PIR
and was just approved by imam
and same with current dua
there was a committee of few ismaili scholars majorly from Syria and Indo-Pak and then dua was presented to MHI and then he approved the dua with few minor changes and then current dua was sent to all world Jammat and it is also said k current dua is a Public Document and Non Ismailies can also read this.
what ever i written above was took from a lecture of Alwaiz Abu Ali
but if i m mistaked plz do correct me (request please correct me with proff)
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
Who was the Imam that succeeded Krishna?
This reminds me of an incidence where MHI was told by Alwaez Amlani (who was granted an audience with the Imam for the purpose of Ginans) that we are being accused of being Hindus because of the Ginanic references to Hindu ideas. To which MHI reacted with emotion and banged his hand on the table and said "Moses is mentioned in the Quran, Jesus is mentioned in the Quran, we do not become Jews or Christians as a result!"nagib wrote:Also ponder this, how would you feel if you were told that the passages and acceptance of Adam in the Quran and the other biblical prophets was only to convert Jews and Christians to Islam..
Re: anotehr opinion
My understanding is that Mowlana Sultan Muammad Shah was personally involved in the composition of the present Dua. He compiled it with the help of the scholar Mustapha Kamil( if I am not mistaken) in a hotel in Cairo.Nurali_Barkatali wrote:there was a committee of few ismaili scholars majorly from Syria and Indo-Pak and then dua was presented to MHI and then he approved the dua with few minor changes and then current dua was sent to all world Jammat and it is also said k current dua is a Public Document and Non Ismailies can also read this.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
please research on it
well dear brother
first thing current arabic dua was given by Hazir Imam
some where in 1960s
and
gujrati dua was given by one of our PIRS and approved by Imam of that Time.
and i would request you to please research on it and make u r self correct.
and about ginans i have already made my self/ opnion clear that we need to do a lot of research on ginan within current senerio and its good to have information about hindu mythology as to understand the time when ginans were written by our PIRs.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
first thing current arabic dua was given by Hazir Imam
some where in 1960s
and
gujrati dua was given by one of our PIRS and approved by Imam of that Time.
and i would request you to please research on it and make u r self correct.
and about ginans i have already made my self/ opnion clear that we need to do a lot of research on ginan within current senerio and its good to have information about hindu mythology as to understand the time when ginans were written by our PIRs.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
Re: please research on it
YAM brother,Nurali_Barkatali wrote:well dear brother
first thing current arabic dua was given by Hazir Imam
some where in 1960s
and
gujrati dua was given by one of our PIRS and approved by Imam of that Time.
and i would request you to please research on it and make u r self correct.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
Who told you that our Arabic Dua was given in 1960? I know for sure that Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was involved in its composition according to Alwaez Abually. It was then REVISED in 1960s.
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
hmmm ok let me reconfirm it :)
Ya Ali Madad
well as u have commented so now let me re confrim it
cuz what ever i told you was told to me(/us as a student of HRE Special 1) just a few months back by Alwaiz Kamaluddin.
but still let me reconfirm it and i will come up with the updated info soon.
and a theology about acepting Rasools/ Nabis before Rasool Muhammad (PBUH) is stated as.
The Chistian , Jew groups in the arabia treats them as sacred in comparision with other tribal peoples as their religion/Rasool were from the children Hazart Ibrahim (Aal-Israil / Bani - Israil).
so for muslims not to feel down Allah States in quran. That Rasool Muhammad (PBUH) is also from Bani - Israil and muslims also belive in previous Rasools and as according to their books the next Rasools is to come is Muhammad (PBUH).
to belive in the previous Rasool presurized the Jews n other to come on event of MUBAHILA.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
well as u have commented so now let me re confrim it
cuz what ever i told you was told to me(/us as a student of HRE Special 1) just a few months back by Alwaiz Kamaluddin.
but still let me reconfirm it and i will come up with the updated info soon.
and a theology about acepting Rasools/ Nabis before Rasool Muhammad (PBUH) is stated as.
The Chistian , Jew groups in the arabia treats them as sacred in comparision with other tribal peoples as their religion/Rasool were from the children Hazart Ibrahim (Aal-Israil / Bani - Israil).
so for muslims not to feel down Allah States in quran. That Rasool Muhammad (PBUH) is also from Bani - Israil and muslims also belive in previous Rasools and as according to their books the next Rasools is to come is Muhammad (PBUH).
to belive in the previous Rasool presurized the Jews n other to come on event of MUBAHILA.
Nurali Barkatali
[email protected]
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star_munir
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- Contact:
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Nurali_Barkatali
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- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
have contacted Alwaiz Kamaludin
i have emailed Alwaiz Kamludin and waiting for his response<BR>and also disscussed this with my mom <BR>and according to her in her early days they use to recite gujrati dua <BR>and when they were given a chance to lead jamat in regular dua , Mukhi of the jamat use to chk their gurati dua from a book in which the dua was written<BR>and then by Mowla Hazir Imam Talika came with the guidance of change of dua<BR><BR>well i m still working o­n it will let u know<BR><BR>and myth or reality <BR>well what i belived i told u <BR>what i didnt i used that as a myth so used the word myth<BR>and according to a recent work @ ISMC i have been told that not o­nly Hindu religion have a lot of myths (more then 75%).<BR>and even in islam there are a lot of myths <BR>but to recognize a myth and a truth o­ne have to study the history , the historian and every possible source which can lead the researcher to his own judgement about a myth and real.<BR><BR>and events are facts<BR>or what is fact<BR>or wut is truth<BR>and what is real<BR><BR>to find answer for such questions o­ne need to study philosophy so o­ne can better understand and may this will be easy and will help that what the truth can be.<BR><BR>
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star_munir
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Ya Ali Madad
You are right that many hindu and Islamic stories are myth but how ISS know that Hindu religion have a lot of myths (more then 75%).
Don't believe whatever you read in books. Like there are millions of stories of Hinduism. Many veds,purans etc. Its strange that people at IIS have read all of them and even calculated thathow many are truth and how many are myths although not any historian or Scientist have able to find out that.Its really very strange.
There are many differences in history. Like Jesus was one person. According to muslims he was human according to christians he was son of God. According to christians Jesus died but muslims believe he was not died as per Quran He was taken to Sky by God alive.
Now you are talking about IIS finding out which events of Hindusim are historical and which are mythological. Do they know even about Ismailism completly??? You can read book publihed by IIS short history of Ismailis written by Farhad Daftary which is totally anti Ginan and according to this books Ginans, the words of Our Pir are even inccorect.
Do the books of IIS are books of God? Do they know more than Our Imam and Pir? Who are they to judge which is history which is not correct historical event. We believe in Our Imam and Our Pir and whatever they say is always right and therefore if there is story of Hinduism in Ginan it is our Imaan that its not a myth but History.
In Past christian scholars denied the event of Noah's Ark by calling it Symbolical story in same manner that todays ismaili scholars denies miracles of Jesus,Pir Shams etc but now there are scientifical proofs and todays Christian Scholars believe in that as historical event.
In book "Tarikh ka Safar" Tarikh means itehaas or history it is written that in past people used to think that story of war of Maha Bharat was not true story but symbolical story but now there are some proofs that it was a real event.
Its good that you have asked Alwaez Kamluddin by mailing him but I think he will surely say you not to discuss ismailism on net.
You are right that many hindu and Islamic stories are myth but how ISS know that Hindu religion have a lot of myths (more then 75%).
Don't believe whatever you read in books. Like there are millions of stories of Hinduism. Many veds,purans etc. Its strange that people at IIS have read all of them and even calculated thathow many are truth and how many are myths although not any historian or Scientist have able to find out that.Its really very strange.
There are many differences in history. Like Jesus was one person. According to muslims he was human according to christians he was son of God. According to christians Jesus died but muslims believe he was not died as per Quran He was taken to Sky by God alive.
Now you are talking about IIS finding out which events of Hindusim are historical and which are mythological. Do they know even about Ismailism completly??? You can read book publihed by IIS short history of Ismailis written by Farhad Daftary which is totally anti Ginan and according to this books Ginans, the words of Our Pir are even inccorect.
Do the books of IIS are books of God? Do they know more than Our Imam and Pir? Who are they to judge which is history which is not correct historical event. We believe in Our Imam and Our Pir and whatever they say is always right and therefore if there is story of Hinduism in Ginan it is our Imaan that its not a myth but History.
In Past christian scholars denied the event of Noah's Ark by calling it Symbolical story in same manner that todays ismaili scholars denies miracles of Jesus,Pir Shams etc but now there are scientifical proofs and todays Christian Scholars believe in that as historical event.
In book "Tarikh ka Safar" Tarikh means itehaas or history it is written that in past people used to think that story of war of Maha Bharat was not true story but symbolical story but now there are some proofs that it was a real event.
Its good that you have asked Alwaez Kamluddin by mailing him but I think he will surely say you not to discuss ismailism on net.
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
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reply and clearification
Ya Ali Madad
Thanx For accepting my views
well bhiya mentioning IIS name doesnot mean to rely on them
and Farhad Dafry is not even an ismaili.
my point is to view thing critically
and try to find real meaning out of it
and every one around will have his / her own meaning
cuz no body's mind is same
ALLAH has given us same mind but with different intellect level which are developed in our life time since child hood
and even if u eleminate IIS other institutions researching or working on philisphy and religion also says what i said. but exceptions are there
and i no way negate anything in Ginans neither saying Ginans are worth less
infect Ginan is our Tradition and not only ours but its a Tradition of peoples of INDO PAK.
pplz in SINDH claim LAL SHAH BAAZ QALANDER WAS THE FIRST POET OF SIND, But History Proves That Pir Shams Was Even Better And Said His Poetry At Lest 200 Years Before LAL Qalander.
Even one of the State Univesity of Japan and Jam Shoro University in Pakistan is researching on Ginans.
Well I only meant k we should study and understand ginans not in its literla meanings but with its essoteric meanings tooo.
I hope i ve made my self clear
yeah as far as DUA TOPIC is
well yeah its true that dua given by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah consists of Arabic verses. which was given to Jamat in February 1950.
in Karachi Darbar. and was For ALL JAMAT.
the dua was Published and made available for Public on 21 March 1950.
but we Ismailies were bless with the complete Arabic Dua some where in late 1960s by Hazir Imam.
and i m 100% about sure this above information as i myself have researched on it and also have read the old DUA.
which was a Mixture of Majorly SINDHI then ARABIC and a little Gujrati.
take care
Nurali Barkatali
Thanx For accepting my views
well bhiya mentioning IIS name doesnot mean to rely on them
and Farhad Dafry is not even an ismaili.
my point is to view thing critically
and try to find real meaning out of it
and every one around will have his / her own meaning
cuz no body's mind is same
ALLAH has given us same mind but with different intellect level which are developed in our life time since child hood
and even if u eleminate IIS other institutions researching or working on philisphy and religion also says what i said. but exceptions are there
and i no way negate anything in Ginans neither saying Ginans are worth less
infect Ginan is our Tradition and not only ours but its a Tradition of peoples of INDO PAK.
pplz in SINDH claim LAL SHAH BAAZ QALANDER WAS THE FIRST POET OF SIND, But History Proves That Pir Shams Was Even Better And Said His Poetry At Lest 200 Years Before LAL Qalander.
Even one of the State Univesity of Japan and Jam Shoro University in Pakistan is researching on Ginans.
Well I only meant k we should study and understand ginans not in its literla meanings but with its essoteric meanings tooo.
I hope i ve made my self clear
yeah as far as DUA TOPIC is
well yeah its true that dua given by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah consists of Arabic verses. which was given to Jamat in February 1950.
in Karachi Darbar. and was For ALL JAMAT.
the dua was Published and made available for Public on 21 March 1950.
but we Ismailies were bless with the complete Arabic Dua some where in late 1960s by Hazir Imam.
and i m 100% about sure this above information as i myself have researched on it and also have read the old DUA.
which was a Mixture of Majorly SINDHI then ARABIC and a little Gujrati.
take care
Nurali Barkatali
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star_munir
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Mowla Ali Madad
In your previous post these were your words "according to a recent work @ ISMC i have been told that not o­nly Hindu religion have a lot of myths (more then 75%).<BR>and even in islam there are a lot of myths <BR>but to recognize a myth and a truth o­ne have to study the history , the historian and every possible source which can lead the researcher to his own judgement about a myth and real"
In response to this I replied that IIS can not found which events of hinduism were history and which were myth,false stories asscoiated with reality. And there are different point of views of different historians but in real manner the Farmans of Imam and Pirs are alaways correct and I think we must not call myth to historical mention in our Farmans and Ginans.
And I dont agree that old dua was in Sindhi majorly than arabic than Gujrati. The old Dua was majorly in Gujrati.Yeah there were arabic verses like salwat and Tasbihs but it was majorly in Gujrati.
By the way do you got reply from Kamaluddin Missionary?
In your previous post these were your words "according to a recent work @ ISMC i have been told that not o­nly Hindu religion have a lot of myths (more then 75%).<BR>and even in islam there are a lot of myths <BR>but to recognize a myth and a truth o­ne have to study the history , the historian and every possible source which can lead the researcher to his own judgement about a myth and real"
In response to this I replied that IIS can not found which events of hinduism were history and which were myth,false stories asscoiated with reality. And there are different point of views of different historians but in real manner the Farmans of Imam and Pirs are alaways correct and I think we must not call myth to historical mention in our Farmans and Ginans.
And I dont agree that old dua was in Sindhi majorly than arabic than Gujrati. The old Dua was majorly in Gujrati.Yeah there were arabic verses like salwat and Tasbihs but it was majorly in Gujrati.
By the way do you got reply from Kamaluddin Missionary?
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
hmmm
well no response from Missnairy as his email is not working
as far as Ginan and Faramin is i think may be we are saying the same thing but with different words. my one line for ginan and farman is.
they are all the way authentic as are by imam and pirs. but instead of getting into its literla meaning lets try to work out with the meaning most suit to us in our daily life and our spritual personality.
and about dua in Sindhi or Gujrati.
yar the menu script of dua is completely in gujrati.
but again mostly in Sindhi then Arabic then a few Gurati words.
i m saying this bcuz i have my self seen the menu script , and have asked my MOM to read that for me.
one more thing why i claim and sure tht it is in Sindhi cuz I my self live in Karachi , SIND so i m familier with sindhi language.
rest if u want to continue with u r opinion, i think there is no harm in it is cuz that dua no more in practice and instead of talking about its language lets focus on to the essence of dua
and inshallah we all will
Ya Ali Madad
Nurali Barkatali
as far as Ginan and Faramin is i think may be we are saying the same thing but with different words. my one line for ginan and farman is.
they are all the way authentic as are by imam and pirs. but instead of getting into its literla meaning lets try to work out with the meaning most suit to us in our daily life and our spritual personality.
and about dua in Sindhi or Gujrati.
yar the menu script of dua is completely in gujrati.
but again mostly in Sindhi then Arabic then a few Gurati words.
i m saying this bcuz i have my self seen the menu script , and have asked my MOM to read that for me.
one more thing why i claim and sure tht it is in Sindhi cuz I my self live in Karachi , SIND so i m familier with sindhi language.
rest if u want to continue with u r opinion, i think there is no harm in it is cuz that dua no more in practice and instead of talking about its language lets focus on to the essence of dua
and inshallah we all will
Ya Ali Madad
Nurali Barkatali
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star_munir
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Meaning
YAM Munir,
You may have heard the saying "Its raining cats and dogs"
would the literal meaning make any sense?
not to someone who doesn't know how the saying began.
so, the literal meaning is of no consequence. It is what is being said that is important
You may have heard the saying "Its raining cats and dogs"
would the literal meaning make any sense?
not to someone who doesn't know how the saying began.
so, the literal meaning is of no consequence. It is what is being said that is important
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star_munir
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Mowla Ali Madad Shamsu,
I think you have misunderstood me. For example there is Farman of Hazir Imam not to wear black clothes. Now do I say I will wear black clothes in Jk I must not follow literal meaning it may have batuni or esoteric meaning. If it is said that you must be neat and clean than it means only cleaness of heart otherwise physical neatness is of no value etc.
Our religion is though a batuni or esoteric but that not means in any way to avoid zahir. You yourself have commented in dicussion of black clothes that exoteric and esoteric both meanings of Farman are important.
Example of history: Birth of Jesus.. angel came and said to shepherds "Fear not for I bring you tidings of great joy for unto you is born in this day in Bethlehem a saviour..."
Example of Legend or Myth:
Santa Claus comes on every christmas riding on reigndeers with elves He still lives in north pole where there is snow all around the year.....
So thats the difference between myth and history. You can not call historical event a myth. Thats what I meant to say. Todays ismaili scholar due to lack of their iman disbelieve in physical miracles of Imam and Pir and deny it by calling it legend, myth or it s esoteric.I hope you have read my last post in discussion on Jesus miracle.
I think you have misunderstood me. For example there is Farman of Hazir Imam not to wear black clothes. Now do I say I will wear black clothes in Jk I must not follow literal meaning it may have batuni or esoteric meaning. If it is said that you must be neat and clean than it means only cleaness of heart otherwise physical neatness is of no value etc.
Our religion is though a batuni or esoteric but that not means in any way to avoid zahir. You yourself have commented in dicussion of black clothes that exoteric and esoteric both meanings of Farman are important.
Example of history: Birth of Jesus.. angel came and said to shepherds "Fear not for I bring you tidings of great joy for unto you is born in this day in Bethlehem a saviour..."
Example of Legend or Myth:
Santa Claus comes on every christmas riding on reigndeers with elves He still lives in north pole where there is snow all around the year.....
So thats the difference between myth and history. You can not call historical event a myth. Thats what I meant to say. Todays ismaili scholar due to lack of their iman disbelieve in physical miracles of Imam and Pir and deny it by calling it legend, myth or it s esoteric.I hope you have read my last post in discussion on Jesus miracle.
Re: Meaning
I do not think you can generalise this for all situations. In this particular example it is true. However in works of art in general and scriptures and Ginans in particular, there is value to literal meanings as well. The miracles of Pir Shamsh and Peer Satgur Nur have had a profound impact upon the faith of our Jamats for centuries. They say a great deal about the ability of elevated souls to influence creation.shamsu wrote:
so, the literal meaning is of no consequence. It is what is being said that is important
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
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chk it out
yar all of u r right
and i m right tooo
yar every one has rights to understand and have his her own perception about any event.
but yar in my sense of study of ismailisum, and mowla's faramins
there are diverse practices of ismailisum tooo
our fatih is differently practiced in pakistan and differnet in india
and different in tajikistan and some different practices in africa and afghanistan.
this is mentioned in Farman that Mowla has the authority to change the practices.
as cuz of SARS in canada nyaz was served in plastic disposeable bottles
just taking above things as an analygy.
we need to find and observe and learn and practice our faith (individual)
in accordance with Mowla's Faramin, Ginan, and Quran as if we are from PAKISTAN or INDIA.
and if someone is from Afghanistan or other areas their practices are different so they are not liable to follow ginans, they have theri own practices authorized by IMAM.
specifically dealing with Ginan, i wud say k if u feel like do take the literal meanings of ginan but try to compare them with real teachings of ISLAM and ISMAILISUM as with diversity of its teachings.
in a meeting with wazeen Imam said if one treat me as father i m father
if one treat me as friend i m his friend and so on.
so yar if one want to take him as AWTAR AFTER KRISHNA in accordance with the teaching of GINAN no problemo.
and if one want to explore him as more very much welcomed
and if one is satisfied as a friend also welcomed
as in ginans PIR treated them selves as females BRIDES and IMAM as SOULMATES
tou yar i think there is no point for it till the personal belive and trust is rest yar leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.
i m much into finding things through rationals and working on things / practices of ismailies around the world. but belive me my personall belif and relation with IMAM is totally different then what i m gaining from diversity of ismaili practices.
so chill pill and enjoy u r personal connection with IMAM.
take care
Nurali Barkatali
and i m right tooo
yar every one has rights to understand and have his her own perception about any event.
but yar in my sense of study of ismailisum, and mowla's faramins
there are diverse practices of ismailisum tooo
our fatih is differently practiced in pakistan and differnet in india
and different in tajikistan and some different practices in africa and afghanistan.
this is mentioned in Farman that Mowla has the authority to change the practices.
as cuz of SARS in canada nyaz was served in plastic disposeable bottles
just taking above things as an analygy.
we need to find and observe and learn and practice our faith (individual)
in accordance with Mowla's Faramin, Ginan, and Quran as if we are from PAKISTAN or INDIA.
and if someone is from Afghanistan or other areas their practices are different so they are not liable to follow ginans, they have theri own practices authorized by IMAM.
specifically dealing with Ginan, i wud say k if u feel like do take the literal meanings of ginan but try to compare them with real teachings of ISLAM and ISMAILISUM as with diversity of its teachings.
in a meeting with wazeen Imam said if one treat me as father i m father
if one treat me as friend i m his friend and so on.
so yar if one want to take him as AWTAR AFTER KRISHNA in accordance with the teaching of GINAN no problemo.
and if one want to explore him as more very much welcomed
and if one is satisfied as a friend also welcomed
as in ginans PIR treated them selves as females BRIDES and IMAM as SOULMATES
tou yar i think there is no point for it till the personal belive and trust is rest yar leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.
i m much into finding things through rationals and working on things / practices of ismailies around the world. but belive me my personall belif and relation with IMAM is totally different then what i m gaining from diversity of ismaili practices.
so chill pill and enjoy u r personal connection with IMAM.
take care
Nurali Barkatali
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star_munir
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Ya Ali Madad,
There may be difference in practices among Ismailis living in different parts of the world but the belief must be same like this will not make sense if a Imam is God for ismailis of a particular country and He is only a religious leader for the ismailis of a particular country.
Ginans are for every ismaili. Like Every ismaili must believe in Quran and Ginan than according to Famans teachings of 10 parts of Quran is in Ginans of Pir Sadardin. Like Farman of Hazir Imam are important for not only those who lives in France in same manner Farmans of Pir Sadardin,Hassan Kabirdin etc inform of Ginan are also important to follow for those who dont live in India too.There was much discussion on this topic in Is Hazir Imam God? topic I thik it was discussed under section of doctrines.
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
There may be difference in practices among Ismailis living in different parts of the world but the belief must be same like this will not make sense if a Imam is God for ismailis of a particular country and He is only a religious leader for the ismailis of a particular country.
Ginans are for every ismaili. Like Every ismaili must believe in Quran and Ginan than according to Famans teachings of 10 parts of Quran is in Ginans of Pir Sadardin. Like Farman of Hazir Imam are important for not only those who lives in France in same manner Farmans of Pir Sadardin,Hassan Kabirdin etc inform of Ginan are also important to follow for those who dont live in India too.There was much discussion on this topic in Is Hazir Imam God? topic I thik it was discussed under section of doctrines.
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
my apology
well i apologise and take back all my words
if that have hurt any one or anyones belief
but what ever i have said was totally upon my knowledge and understanding.
in accordance with mowla's faramin
i have seen many pplz quoting mowla's faramins for many things
but then their comments some how negate a few other faramins
wut ever i m sorry for what ever i have said
and inshallah will not post anything any more
cuz i think my posts is creating problems for ismailies here
myonly reply for monoply of institution
i never meant monoply of institution
cuz in a faraman mowla says follow what ever my institution and leader say
and other side in an ohter faraman mowla also says k use u r brain and try to understand diversified knowleddge based on quran, faramin, qaseedas, ginans, history, philosophy,
so for me i think the use of word MONOPLY is not appropriate.
in a faramn made in october 2000 on pakistan visit mowla said there are a few types of knowledge out of which one is good knowledge and one is bad knowledge
and todays Info Tech revolution has made thing difficult to understand as what is good an what is bad
what is relevent and wut is not.
so just a request please try to understand Mowla's Faramin in the every asspect for which mowla may what had said that farman..
and yeah Mowla is GOD or not
Mowla him self said in a speech to Wazeen
On Shariat if some one say i m GOD he is an IDOL worshiper, on TAREQAT this is just not the question.
and let me tell u there is a diversity of belive that IMAM is GOD or not
i have posted the whole speech by IMAM on that vary forum u menstion
so go throught that as much as u can.
u siad
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
then who u think will decide. will u??
it is our practice that we follow what is being guided to us by IMAM and institutions designated by IMAM
thank you
ya ali madad
if that have hurt any one or anyones belief
but what ever i have said was totally upon my knowledge and understanding.
in accordance with mowla's faramin
i have seen many pplz quoting mowla's faramins for many things
but then their comments some how negate a few other faramins
wut ever i m sorry for what ever i have said
and inshallah will not post anything any more
cuz i think my posts is creating problems for ismailies here
myonly reply for monoply of institution
i never meant monoply of institution
cuz in a faraman mowla says follow what ever my institution and leader say
and other side in an ohter faraman mowla also says k use u r brain and try to understand diversified knowleddge based on quran, faramin, qaseedas, ginans, history, philosophy,
so for me i think the use of word MONOPLY is not appropriate.
in a faramn made in october 2000 on pakistan visit mowla said there are a few types of knowledge out of which one is good knowledge and one is bad knowledge
and todays Info Tech revolution has made thing difficult to understand as what is good an what is bad
what is relevent and wut is not.
so just a request please try to understand Mowla's Faramin in the every asspect for which mowla may what had said that farman..
and yeah Mowla is GOD or not
Mowla him self said in a speech to Wazeen
On Shariat if some one say i m GOD he is an IDOL worshiper, on TAREQAT this is just not the question.
and let me tell u there is a diversity of belive that IMAM is GOD or not
i have posted the whole speech by IMAM on that vary forum u menstion
so go throught that as much as u can.
u siad
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
then who u think will decide. will u??
it is our practice that we follow what is being guided to us by IMAM and institutions designated by IMAM
thank you
ya ali madad
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
my apology
well i apologise and take back all my words
if that have hurt any one or anyones belief
but what ever i have said was totally upon my knowledge and understanding.
in accordance with mowla's faramin
i have seen many pplz quoting mowla's faramins for many things
but then their comments some how negate a few other faramins
wut ever i m sorry for what ever i have said
and inshallah will not post anything any more
cuz i think my posts is creating problems for ismailies here
myonly reply for monoply of institution
i never meant monoply of institution
cuz in a faraman mowla says follow what ever my institution and leader say
and other side in an ohter faraman mowla also says k use u r brain and try to understand diversified knowleddge based on quran, faramin, qaseedas, ginans, history, philosophy,
so for me i think the use of word MONOPLY is not appropriate.
in a faramn made in october 2000 on pakistan visit mowla said there are a few types of knowledge out of which one is good knowledge and one is bad knowledge
and todays Info Tech revolution has made thing difficult to understand as what is good an what is bad
what is relevent and wut is not.
so just a request please try to understand Mowla's Faramin in the every asspect for which mowla may what had said that farman..
and yeah Mowla is GOD or not
Mowla him self said in a speech to Wazeen
On Shariat if some one say i m GOD he is an IDOL worshiper, on TAREQAT this is just not the question.
and let me tell u there is a diversity of belive that IMAM is GOD or not
i have posted the whole speech by IMAM on that vary forum u menstion
so go throught that as much as u can.
u siad
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
then who u think will decide. will u??
it is our practice that we follow what is being guided to us by IMAM and institutions designated by IMAM
thank you
ya ali madad
if that have hurt any one or anyones belief
but what ever i have said was totally upon my knowledge and understanding.
in accordance with mowla's faramin
i have seen many pplz quoting mowla's faramins for many things
but then their comments some how negate a few other faramins
wut ever i m sorry for what ever i have said
and inshallah will not post anything any more
cuz i think my posts is creating problems for ismailies here
myonly reply for monoply of institution
i never meant monoply of institution
cuz in a faraman mowla says follow what ever my institution and leader say
and other side in an ohter faraman mowla also says k use u r brain and try to understand diversified knowleddge based on quran, faramin, qaseedas, ginans, history, philosophy,
so for me i think the use of word MONOPLY is not appropriate.
in a faramn made in october 2000 on pakistan visit mowla said there are a few types of knowledge out of which one is good knowledge and one is bad knowledge
and todays Info Tech revolution has made thing difficult to understand as what is good an what is bad
what is relevent and wut is not.
so just a request please try to understand Mowla's Faramin in the every asspect for which mowla may what had said that farman..
and yeah Mowla is GOD or not
Mowla him self said in a speech to Wazeen
On Shariat if some one say i m GOD he is an IDOL worshiper, on TAREQAT this is just not the question.
and let me tell u there is a diversity of belive that IMAM is GOD or not
i have posted the whole speech by IMAM on that vary forum u menstion
so go throught that as much as u can.
u siad
I also not agree that leave it to Tariqa Board , Wazeen , and Imam to decide wut an institutional comment can be.Why should be Tariqa board........ I dont believe in monopoly of Tariqa board.
then who u think will decide. will u??
it is our practice that we follow what is being guided to us by IMAM and institutions designated by IMAM
thank you
ya ali madad
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad Nur Ali,
I think you got hurted from my reply.......Please dont apologize. We all are here to discuss and share our views and opinions.Dont say sorry. Keep sharing your views.
What I said about monopoly of Tariqa board is that we must not follow Tariqa board or council if its against Farmans,Ginans etc.
Its responsibility of Tariqa board to Preserve Ginan but it not means in any way that if I get Ginans without changing and censor [as from this site]
Those in Tariqa board are people like you and me.There are some times differences in opinion among various missionaries. I have listened many waez of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali missionary which are opposite of what Kamaluddin missionary said.
You can read the Ginans published by Tariqa board and compare it with that in this website and see the difference in words etc.You can here discusss about many topics and can check out so many topics Is there any book published by Tariqa board which deals with such topics?The answer is no.
Thats why I believe leave other only to Imam
I think you got hurted from my reply.......Please dont apologize. We all are here to discuss and share our views and opinions.Dont say sorry. Keep sharing your views.
What I said about monopoly of Tariqa board is that we must not follow Tariqa board or council if its against Farmans,Ginans etc.
Its responsibility of Tariqa board to Preserve Ginan but it not means in any way that if I get Ginans without changing and censor [as from this site]
Those in Tariqa board are people like you and me.There are some times differences in opinion among various missionaries. I have listened many waez of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali missionary which are opposite of what Kamaluddin missionary said.
You can read the Ginans published by Tariqa board and compare it with that in this website and see the difference in words etc.You can here discusss about many topics and can check out so many topics Is there any book published by Tariqa board which deals with such topics?The answer is no.
Thats why I believe leave other only to Imam
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
they are working in accordance with Mowla Faramin
hello brother
i m not hurt from u r msg
but i will not post more on this as now i have doubt that my opnion may cuz hurt to some one.
and as far as Tariqa Board is
recent changes made in Ginans are being made cuz of direct orderd from Mowla
as in a few ginans PIRS have used Indian God Names
so in accordance with Mowla Bapa Direction
they have changed it to NAR Karim Shah
and so
and Tariqa Board peoples are in contineous touch with MHI
so i think they better know
and difference of Waz of Babul n Abu Ali in comparision of Kamaluddin.
yar teachings of Ismailisum has also change with due time.
and Mowla has never said k any one of the mishionary is rong
and if uu know (i dont know about others) Kamalluddin was asked to teach Childrens of Noorani Family.
tou i think k he is of that Caliber that mowla appoited him.
and just a simple request
for a second leave ginan
leave tariqa board
and just focus on Faramin of MHI
then u will find ur way to Ginans and institution as well
Ya Ali Madad
and
Take Care
i m not hurt from u r msg
but i will not post more on this as now i have doubt that my opnion may cuz hurt to some one.
and as far as Tariqa Board is
recent changes made in Ginans are being made cuz of direct orderd from Mowla
as in a few ginans PIRS have used Indian God Names
so in accordance with Mowla Bapa Direction
they have changed it to NAR Karim Shah
and so
and Tariqa Board peoples are in contineous touch with MHI
so i think they better know
and difference of Waz of Babul n Abu Ali in comparision of Kamaluddin.
yar teachings of Ismailisum has also change with due time.
and Mowla has never said k any one of the mishionary is rong
and if uu know (i dont know about others) Kamalluddin was asked to teach Childrens of Noorani Family.
tou i think k he is of that Caliber that mowla appoited him.
and just a simple request
for a second leave ginan
leave tariqa board
and just focus on Faramin of MHI
then u will find ur way to Ginans and institution as well
Ya Ali Madad
and
Take Care
Re: they are working in accordance with Mowla Faramin
This information is inaccurate. There is no such hidayat of Hazar Imam. But it is true that some missionaries have mislead the jamat about this and everyone is innocently repeating the same thinking that it is correct information.Nurali_Barkatali wrote: recent changes made in Ginans are being made cuz of direct orderd from Mowla as in a few ginans PIRS have used Indian God Names
so in accordance with Mowla Bapa Direction
they have changed it to NAR Karim Shah
As said the chinese proverb, "one lie told, thousand times repeated".
Nagib
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Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
my reply
well if u say so k that is rong
let me tell u one thing
we are disscussing at this site
this is also prohibited by our institutions under direct guidnace from AGLIMONT. (plz do comment on this cuz this was in special order from aglimont and was told to jamat in JKs by MHUKHI SAHBAN).
and yes if u say so k mowla has not allowed any change in Ginan
u r request to contact Aglimont for the purpose
cuz looking into the situations and environment
changes were proposed by our leaders
and Mowla accepted those changes
in 1970s our recitation of ginans were changed on tunes of songs,
and now Molwa as asked to recall all traditional tunes.
recently when SARS effected Canada
imam didnt said k go n use plastic bottles for AB-E-Shafa
that was proposed by jamati Leaders
and Mowla Accepted that and Approved that.
my only point is which i made clear in my last post as well
that forget ITREB
FORGET WAZEN
Forget Ginan for a second
and just go for Mowla's Faramin
and inshallah those Faramin will guide us how to deal with Ginan, TARIQA board , Wazeen and allother matters in life.
cuz according to my faith and understanding what ever Mowla says gives the best way and key to solve all these issues.
Take care
Ya Ali Madad
let me tell u one thing
we are disscussing at this site
this is also prohibited by our institutions under direct guidnace from AGLIMONT. (plz do comment on this cuz this was in special order from aglimont and was told to jamat in JKs by MHUKHI SAHBAN).
and yes if u say so k mowla has not allowed any change in Ginan
u r request to contact Aglimont for the purpose
cuz looking into the situations and environment
changes were proposed by our leaders
and Mowla accepted those changes
in 1970s our recitation of ginans were changed on tunes of songs,
and now Molwa as asked to recall all traditional tunes.
recently when SARS effected Canada
imam didnt said k go n use plastic bottles for AB-E-Shafa
that was proposed by jamati Leaders
and Mowla Accepted that and Approved that.
my only point is which i made clear in my last post as well
that forget ITREB
FORGET WAZEN
Forget Ginan for a second
and just go for Mowla's Faramin
and inshallah those Faramin will guide us how to deal with Ginan, TARIQA board , Wazeen and allother matters in life.
cuz according to my faith and understanding what ever Mowla says gives the best way and key to solve all these issues.
Take care
Ya Ali Madad
-
Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
just to make one thing clear
just to make one thing clear
what ever i m stating
is completely from my research and understanding.
I m currently in HRE 2 Special classes
organized by ITREB Pakistan (Teachers are well known wazeen of our jamat and scholers from IED, AKU )
and also working on different matters in ismailisum at my own.
what ever i m stating
is completely from my research and understanding.
I m currently in HRE 2 Special classes
organized by ITREB Pakistan (Teachers are well known wazeen of our jamat and scholers from IED, AKU )
and also working on different matters in ismailisum at my own.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad
There was a lot of discussion in past in Ginan section of this forum under topic changings in Ginans in this regard. Mostly it was the view of every one that there must not be changings in thw wordings of Ginans.
I have heard in one waez of Kamaluddin that Quran is book of God but unlike it there can be changings in Ginan and there is not any rigidity in it and there was alos disussion on it in doctrines section of this forum.
Unlike Paksitani missionaries I have heard in waezes of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali missionary to recite Ginans in their orignal wordings and thats what Hazir Imam wants. So thats a confusing issue. Personally I think we must try to preserve Ginans in their orignal form. I dont know who is right? What do you Nagib,Kmaherali,Shamsu,Galib and every one else here thinks.
There was a lot of discussion in past in Ginan section of this forum under topic changings in Ginans in this regard. Mostly it was the view of every one that there must not be changings in thw wordings of Ginans.
I have heard in one waez of Kamaluddin that Quran is book of God but unlike it there can be changings in Ginan and there is not any rigidity in it and there was alos disussion on it in doctrines section of this forum.
Unlike Paksitani missionaries I have heard in waezes of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali missionary to recite Ginans in their orignal wordings and thats what Hazir Imam wants. So thats a confusing issue. Personally I think we must try to preserve Ginans in their orignal form. I dont know who is right? What do you Nagib,Kmaherali,Shamsu,Galib and every one else here thinks.
PLEASE, discuss this issue under Changes in Ginans but not here! Please respect the subject of discussion. I understand that one subject brings another one but think of the peole that will browse this Forum in 100 years and looking for one subject, they will see discussion on another subject and they will think that their ancestors did not even have the capacity to read the title of their own discussions 
Admin
Admin
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
-
Nurali_Barkatali
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:08 pm
well i think this conversation is not o­n Ginan o­nly<BR>this is about belive, authorityof Imam, and rituals<BR>as its a debate of a mix of blended thoughts and religious stuff<BR>it should be allowed to be posted here.<BR><BR>and children after 100 years hehe i think they wont be needing this stuff<BR>they will be debating o­n something completely different whcih wud be in their senerio and environment.<BR><BR>thank u
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact: