Few days ago I heard a waez in Jk in which missionary said a very stupid thing.
As we know that Jesus used to make miracle by bringing back life to dead people but She said that Hazrat Issa can not make dead people alive. He used to make alive in batuni sense not physically.
Thats totally wrong because if this was case it cant be call a miracle and it is mention every where that He physically used to make alive dead ones and I believe he can do that.
Jesus Miracle
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star_munir
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Jesus Miracle
Last edited by star_munir on Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Putalaa
According to the Ginan "Putalaa" which can be referenced in the Ginans section by alphabetical order, Pir Satgur Nur made the idols (made of stone) dance! So it is believable that Jesus being our Pir would bring back dead to life in a physical sense.
As I have mentioned in other forums, these miracles should not be the basis of faith, rather they point to the ability of elevated souls to influence creation. Such miracles are rarely performed because they can be more of a nuisance on the Path.
As I have mentioned in other forums, these miracles should not be the basis of faith, rather they point to the ability of elevated souls to influence creation. Such miracles are rarely performed because they can be more of a nuisance on the Path.
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star_munir
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In past people asked Prophets to perfom miracle inorder to give proof of t their Prophethood and they used to do so. So the miracles used to play an important role for instance Once people asked Propet Muhammad [PBUH] that they will believe only if He will show a miracle.Prophet {PBUH] said what you want Me to do?Some Kafirs said that He is magician He can perform magic in earth so we will ask Him to divide moon into two halves and than reunite it so if he is magician and would try to do so He wouldn't do that.And Prophet Muhaamad {PBUH} did so. I believe that momins can also perform miracles as per Farman but momins cant perform big miracles like dividing moon into two halves as Prophet {PBUH} did,bringing sun down as Pir Shams did,bringing back life to dead as Jesus did.To ignore them and deny them that they were not real or were esoteric is a very bad thing to misguide people. I remember a missionary saying in jk do not believe that Imam is God as he has never claimed so.So some times people misguide others having lack of knowledge.
Miracles and Esotericism
In my opinion belief in miracles is fundamental to the understanding of esotericism or mysticism. Without acknowledgement of the fact that there are other modes of perception outside the cause and effect paradigm (which is only a ‘window’ through which reality is perceived) one cannot elevate himself to higher realms nor appreciate creation in its multifarious dimensions. By not accepting miracles one is depriving himself of richer experiences of life and undermining his/her full potential. In other words it is like confining or condemning oneself to the shariati life with no batini insight.
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star_munir
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I never said that miracles should be basis of religion.But at the same time I do not say that miracles are not Important at all. Miracles means some thing unusual and If Imam or Prophet or Pir perform it there are reasons behind it. I also believe that Without acknowledgement of the fact that there are other modes of perception outside the cause and effect paradigm (which is only a ‘window’ through which reality is perceived) one cannot elevate himself to higher realms nor appreciate creation in its multifarious dimensions but I also think that its wrong to deny or disbelive in miracle and its really stupid to say miracles which are part of history or every thing which happen in Zahir to call it Batin.
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star_munir
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There are some thing which are Zahir and Some thing which are batin. One must not call batin to Zahiri events. There are many historical events that occur in Zahir. If every thing is batin than people can wear black clothes in Jamat Khana by saying If Imam has said not to wear black than it has batuni meaning which is certainly not.
In past Christian Scholars used to say that event of Noah's Ark was not real event as there are many things from which it seems to be impossible so may be the story in Bible about Noah's Ark is estoric story or symbolical story but Later in modern times there were discoveries and it is proved that it was real event which occur in Zahir and was not at all symbolical story or bauni event.
In past Christian Scholars used to say that event of Noah's Ark was not real event as there are many things from which it seems to be impossible so may be the story in Bible about Noah's Ark is estoric story or symbolical story but Later in modern times there were discoveries and it is proved that it was real event which occur in Zahir and was not at all symbolical story or bauni event.
Zahir-Batin
Munir,
YAM.
How about we elevate ourselves above Zahir AND Batin?
Shams
YAM.
How about we elevate ourselves above Zahir AND Batin?
Shams
Biblical Literature
Biblical literature is a work of art. This means that although the stories that are mentioned in it are based on historical fact, it is itself not historical per se. Therefore you will rarely if ever find exact dates, times or places in it. It is composed with the intent to appeal to individuals with varied backgrounds. If one accepts miracles (in Zaheri sense), then there is something for him in there, and if one does not accept miracles then there is an opportunity for an allegorical interpretation (Batini sense).
Having said the above, I think we being the Batinis should have the capacity to interpret them in a literal (Zaheri) sense. After all our own tradition and history is replete with miracles.
Having said the above, I think we being the Batinis should have the capacity to interpret them in a literal (Zaheri) sense. After all our own tradition and history is replete with miracles.
Last edited by kmaherali on Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Zahir-Batin
Sorry to intrude. When that happens we ourselves become miracles!shamsu wrote:Munir,
YAM.
How about we elevate ourselves above Zahir AND Batin?
Shams
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star_munir
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Mowla Ali Madad Shamsu I don't have answer of your question but I think kmaherali has given it.
I agree that Bible is not in its original condition.But what I want to say that If there is a miracle in Zahir we must not deny it or call it esoteric .Although there are esoteric meanings of exoteric events but we can't say that physically that event has not happened at all or zahiri miracles are of less important because whenever Imam do some thing there is reason behind it, we must not deny it and try to understand its purpose and its meaning for example a miracle occured in Karachi. See this miracle was in a muslim country like Pakistan As now there is no recitation of das avtar ginan and many people do not believe it to be true.
When Hazar Imam left Garden Jamat Khana on On November 6th 1991at 7:00 pm, a
large crowd had gathered near the road. Amongst the throng of Muslims
stood
two Hindu ladies who were waiting for the Imam. Because of the heavy
rush,
the Aga Khan Volunteers were forced to cordon off the crowd with a rope.
As
the car approached the women, Imam moved from one side of the seat to the
other, opened the window and revealed His Holy Face. Just then, the rope
broke exactly where these women were standing. They stepped forward
towards
the car and received the Imam's Holy Didar. Imam then closed the window.
The
Ismaili Volunteers were astonished at this incident. When the Imam
departed,
they approached the women and asked about it. The women said, "We are not
Muslims, but Hindus. Our lord Krishna told us in a dream last night thst
He
would make His appearance on a road neat the Jamat Khana of the Khoja
Ismailis in the midst of a large crowd. Indeed, today we have seen our
Lord!"
I agree that Bible is not in its original condition.But what I want to say that If there is a miracle in Zahir we must not deny it or call it esoteric .Although there are esoteric meanings of exoteric events but we can't say that physically that event has not happened at all or zahiri miracles are of less important because whenever Imam do some thing there is reason behind it, we must not deny it and try to understand its purpose and its meaning for example a miracle occured in Karachi. See this miracle was in a muslim country like Pakistan As now there is no recitation of das avtar ginan and many people do not believe it to be true.
When Hazar Imam left Garden Jamat Khana on On November 6th 1991at 7:00 pm, a
large crowd had gathered near the road. Amongst the throng of Muslims
stood
two Hindu ladies who were waiting for the Imam. Because of the heavy
rush,
the Aga Khan Volunteers were forced to cordon off the crowd with a rope.
As
the car approached the women, Imam moved from one side of the seat to the
other, opened the window and revealed His Holy Face. Just then, the rope
broke exactly where these women were standing. They stepped forward
towards
the car and received the Imam's Holy Didar. Imam then closed the window.
The
Ismaili Volunteers were astonished at this incident. When the Imam
departed,
they approached the women and asked about it. The women said, "We are not
Muslims, but Hindus. Our lord Krishna told us in a dream last night thst
He
would make His appearance on a road neat the Jamat Khana of the Khoja
Ismailis in the midst of a large crowd. Indeed, today we have seen our
Lord!"
Jesus Miracle - Paramahansa Yogananda
In one of the articles that appeared in the latest issue of the magazine “Self-Realization” Paramahansa Yogananda explains the purpose of the miracles performed by Jesus as:
“Through his public miracles, Jesus demonstrated that even ‘incurable’ diseases and ‘insoluble’ problems can be surmounted, sometimes instantly, by attunement with Divine Will. The purpose of these miraculous healings was not to glorify the perishable body, but to rouse faith in the omnipresence of God and in man’s innate ability to contact and personally know his Heavenly Father.”
In the same article, he goes on to explain how they can happen as:
“The universe, being a product of Divine Mind, can be changed by Divine Mind at any time. God’s will created all things through condensation of His invisible ideations into the light of life energy and thence into atomic matter. God-realized souls who are in tune with the Divine Will can instantaneously produce any desired changes in matter, including the human body, by concentrated thought, which acts on and restructures the subtle energy matrix underlying each material form. As the energy in man’s body can be directed by his will to initiate or influence the movement of any bodily part or function, so also, by omnipresent Divine Will, any vibratory movement effecting atomic changes can be initiated in any body, in any thing, and at any place, no matter how far distant.”
“Through his public miracles, Jesus demonstrated that even ‘incurable’ diseases and ‘insoluble’ problems can be surmounted, sometimes instantly, by attunement with Divine Will. The purpose of these miraculous healings was not to glorify the perishable body, but to rouse faith in the omnipresence of God and in man’s innate ability to contact and personally know his Heavenly Father.”
In the same article, he goes on to explain how they can happen as:
“The universe, being a product of Divine Mind, can be changed by Divine Mind at any time. God’s will created all things through condensation of His invisible ideations into the light of life energy and thence into atomic matter. God-realized souls who are in tune with the Divine Will can instantaneously produce any desired changes in matter, including the human body, by concentrated thought, which acts on and restructures the subtle energy matrix underlying each material form. As the energy in man’s body can be directed by his will to initiate or influence the movement of any bodily part or function, so also, by omnipresent Divine Will, any vibratory movement effecting atomic changes can be initiated in any body, in any thing, and at any place, no matter how far distant.”
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star_munir
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star_munir
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Once Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah was unable to meet Khwaja Hassan Nizami as Imam was busy whole day.At dinner when Imam met him Imam said I wanted to to meet you for important purpose but due to lot of work I was unable to met you in day. He replied Your Grand Father Hazrat Ali Had once stopped sun from setting down. You can also do like that.......
Khwaja Hasan Nizami was Nonismaili but yet see his believe. He believed that Like Imam Ali Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah can do whatever He please. He can even stop sun set and sun rise.
Now there are ismailis who not even believe in Power of Imam and Pir. They used to term miracle of Pir Shams Scientifically incorrect.
Now see the difference
Khwaja Hasan Nizami was Nonismaili but yet see his believe. He believed that Like Imam Ali Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah can do whatever He please. He can even stop sun set and sun rise.
Now there are ismailis who not even believe in Power of Imam and Pir. They used to term miracle of Pir Shams Scientifically incorrect.
Now see the difference
Effectiveness of a Miracle.
The effectiveness of a miracle depends upon the level of faith of an individual and his receptivity towards the creative powers and wonders of God. In the same article that I quoted in my earlier post, Paramahansa Yogananda says:
"In even a cursory review of the science of various forms of healing, it is evident that the basis of every formula is the vibratory power of the life force supported by the receptivity of the person to be healed. Positive-minded confidence in the effectiveness of the remedy stimulates the healing life force. Therefore, methods of mental or physical healing should be administered to people according to their mental inclinations and mental habits. Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Ceasar's" - that is, an adaptation, those who believe in medical healing, let them go to the medical doctors; those who believe in healing by the methods of osteopaths or homeopaths or other "natural" remedies, let them use such methods; those who believe in mental healers, let them go to the mental healers. But above all, no matter what one's health practices, the most important belief be in the unlimited power of God and the intercession of masters who are one with God."
"In even a cursory review of the science of various forms of healing, it is evident that the basis of every formula is the vibratory power of the life force supported by the receptivity of the person to be healed. Positive-minded confidence in the effectiveness of the remedy stimulates the healing life force. Therefore, methods of mental or physical healing should be administered to people according to their mental inclinations and mental habits. Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Ceasar's" - that is, an adaptation, those who believe in medical healing, let them go to the medical doctors; those who believe in healing by the methods of osteopaths or homeopaths or other "natural" remedies, let them use such methods; those who believe in mental healers, let them go to the mental healers. But above all, no matter what one's health practices, the most important belief be in the unlimited power of God and the intercession of masters who are one with God."