SHIA IN QURAN AND HADITH

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Jun 20, 2003 1:57 pm

Ya Ali Madad Everyone,
Found this on the net and wanted to share it......shams

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The Term "Shia" in Quran and Hadith

The word "Shia" means "followers; members of party". As such, the term "Shia" alone has no negative or positive meaning unless we specify the leader of the party. If one is a Shia (follower) of the most righteous servants, then there is nothing wrong with being Shia, specially if the leader of such party has been assigned by Allah. On the other hand, if one becomes the Shia a tyrant or a wrong-doer, he shall meet with the fate of his leader. In fact, Quran indicates that on the day of Judgment people will come in groups, and each group has its leader in front of it. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

One day We shall call every group of people by their respective Imams. (Quran 17:71)
In the day of judgment, the destiny of the "followers" of each group highly depends on the destiny of his Imam (provided that they really followed that Imam). Allah mentioned in Quran that there are two types of Imams. Some Imams are those who invite people to Hell fire. They are tyrannical leaders of each era (like Pharaoh, etc.):

And We made them (but) Imams inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find. In this world We continued to curse them; and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the hateful. (Quran 28:41-42).
Certainly, being the members of the parties of such Satanic Imams has been severely denounced in Quran, and the followers of such parties will meet the fate of their leaders. However, Quran also reminds that there are Imams who are appointed by Allah as Guides for the mankind:

"And We ASSIGNED from among them some Imams who GUIDE by Our authority since they were patient and believed firmly in Our Signs." (Quran 32:24)
Certainly, the true followers (Shia) of these Imams will be the real prosperous on the day of resurrection. Thus being a Shia does not mean anything, unless we know the Shia of whom. Allah mentioned in Quran that Some of His righteous servants were Shia of His other righteous servants. An example was Prophet Abraham who was mentioned in Quran specifically as the Shia of Noah:

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)" (Quran 37:83)
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(Notice that the word "Shia" is explicitly used, letter by letter, in the above verse as well as the following verse.) In another verse, Quran talks about the Shia of Moses versus the enemies of Moses:

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy" (Quran 28:15)
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In the above verse of Quran, one is named the Shia of Moses (AS) and the other one is named the enemy of Moses, and the people at that time were either the Shia or the enemy of Moses (AS). Thus Shia is an official word used by Allah in His Quran for His high rank prophets as well as their followers. Do you want to say Prophet Abraham was sectarian? How about Prophet Noah and Prophet Moses?

If somebody calls himself a Shia, it is not due to any sectarianism, nor any innovation. It is because Quran has used the phrase for some of His best servants. The above verses that I mentioned in support of Shia, has used this term singular form (i.e., one group of followers). This means that it has special meaning, such as: THE Shia of Noah (AS), THE Shia of Moses (AS). Also in the History of Islam, Shia has been specially used for the "followers of Ali". The first individual who used this term was the Messenger of Allah himself:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Glad tiding O Ali! Verily you and your companions and your Shia (followers) will be in Paradise."
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Sunni references:

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p655
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p329
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v12, p289
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani
Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v10, pp 21-22
al-Darqunti, who said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p247
Thus the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) used to say the phrase of "Shia of Ali". This phrase is not something invented later! Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) said that the TRUE followers of imam Ali will go to Paradise, and this is a great felicity. Also Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "The Shia of Ali are the real victorious in the day of resurrection/rising"
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Sunni references:

al-Manaqib Ahmad, as mentioned in:
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p62
Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, who quotes the tradition as follows: "We were with the Holy Prophet when Ali came towards us. The Holy Prophet said: He and his Shia will aquire salvation on the day of judgment."
The "day of rising" may also refer to the day of rising of al-Mahdi (AS). But in more general term, it means the day of judgment. Also it is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said: "O Ali! On the Day of Judgment I shall resort to Allah and you will resort to me and your children will resort to you and the Shia will resort to them. Then you will see where they carry us. (i.e. to Paradise)"
Sunni reference: Rabi al-Abrar, by al-Zamakhshari

Furthermore, it is narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said: "O Ali! (On the day of Judgment) you and your Shia will come toward Allah well-pleased and well-pleasing, and there will come to Him your enemies angry and stiff-necked (i.e., their head forced up).
Sunni references:

al-Tabarani, on the authority of Imam Ali
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p236
A more complete version of the tradition which has also been reported by the Sunnis, is as follows:

Ibn Abbas (RA) narrated: When the verse "Those who believe and do righteous deeds are the best of the creation (Quran 98:7)" was revealed, the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said to Ali: "They are you and your Shia." He continued: "O Ali! (On the day of Judgment) you and your Shia will come toward Allah well-pleased and well-pleasing, and your enemies will come angry with their head forced up. Ali said: "Who are my enemies?" The Prophet (PBUH&HF) replied: "He who disassociates himself from you and curses you. And glad tiding to those who reach first under the shadow of al-'Arsh on the day of resurrection." Ali asked: "Who are they, O the Messenger of Allah?" He replied: "Your Shia, O Ali, and those who love you."
Sunni references:

al-Hafidh Jamaluddin al-Dharandi, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 246-247
Then Ibn Hajar provides a bizarre commentary for the first tradition, saying:

The Shia of Ali are the Ahlussunnah since they are those who love Ahlul-Bayt as Allah and His Prophet ordered. But others (i.e., other than Sunnis) are the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt in reality for the love outside the boundary of law is the great enmity, and that was the reason for their fate. Also, the enemies of Ahlul-Bayt were al-Khawarij and their alike from Syria, not Muawiyah and other companions because they were Muteawweloon, and for them is a good reward, and for Ali and his Shia is a good reward!
Sunni reference:

al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 11, section 1, p236
And this is how Sunni scholars cope with the prophetic traditions in favor of "Shia of Ali"! They say that they are the real Shia!

Let us look at one more tradition in this regard:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "The first four individuals who will enter the Paradise are me, you, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and our progeny will be behind us, and our wives will be behind our progeny, and our Shia will be on our right side and in our company."
Sunni references:

al-Manaqib, by Ahmad
al-Tabarani, as quoted in:
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p246
From the above pieces of evidence, the word "Shia" is used by Allah in Quran for His prophets as well as their followers. Further, His blessed Prophet, Muhammad (PBUH&HF) has repeatedly used this word for the followers of Imam Ali (AS). The word Shia is used here in its special meaning, and moreover, it is not in plural form (Parties), rather the above verses and traditions are referring to a special party, i.e., one single party. If Shia meant sectarian, neither Allah would use it for His high rank prophets nor Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) would have praised them.

However there are some verses in Quran which uses the plural form of Shia that is "Shi-ya'a" which means "Parties/groups". This is a general meaning of this term, and not the special meaning in singular form which has been given in previous examples. Of course, only one single party is accepted by Allah and the rest are severely denounced because they have separated from that unique party. So it is clear why Allah denounced "Groups/Parties/sects" (plural form) who separated from that unique group in some verses of Quran. There can't be two righteous groups (with conflicting ideas) at the same time, because between the two leaders one is surely better and more qualified, and thus the claims and the motives of the other leader goes under question.

However I did not locate the exact term of "Ahlussunnah wal-Jama'ah", nor did I find "al-Wahhabiyyah", "al-Salafiyyah" anywhere in the Holy Quran or the traditions of the Prophet. I agree that we should follow the Sunnah of Prophet, but I would like to discover the origin of the exact term here. We Shia are proud to follow the Sunnah of Prophet. However, the question is that which Sunnah is genuine and which one is not. The word "Sunnah" by itself does not serve the purpose of knowledge. All Muslims irrespective to their persuasions claim that they follow the Sunnah of Prophet (PBUH&HF). Please refer to the article titled "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" for a detailed discussion in this regard.

It should be emphasized that the Messenger of Allah never wished to divide Muslims into groups. Prophet ORDERED all people to follow Imam Ali (AS) as his agent during his life time, and as his Caliph after him. Prophet wished everybody does that. But unfortunately those who heeded him were few and were known as "Shia of Ali" who were subject to all sort of discrimination and prosecution, and suffered from day one of the demise of the Mercy to Mankind, Muhammad (PBUH&HF). If every one (or say the majority Muslims) had obeyed what prophet wished, then there wouldn't exist any group or school within Islam. Allah said in Quran:

"Hold fast to the Rope of Allah, all of you together and do not separate" (Quran 3:103)"
The Rope of Allah which we should not separate from, are the Ahlul-Bayt. In fact, some Sunni scholars narrated from Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (AS) saying:

"We are the Rope of Allah about whom Allah has said: 'Hold fast to the Rope of Allah, all of you together and do not diverge (3:103)'"
Sunni references:

al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami , Ch. 11, section 1, p233
Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Tha'labi, under commentary of verse 3:103
Thus, if Allah denounces the sectarianism, He denounces those who separated from His Rope, and not those who hold fast to it! Also some said the Rope of Allah is Quran. This is also true. But by looking at the following tradition narrated by Umm Salama who said:

The Messenger of Allah said: "Ali is with Quran, and Quran is with Ali. They shall not separate from each other till they both return to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."
Sunni references:

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p124 on the authority of Umm Salama
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 2, pp 191,194
al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani; also in al-Saghir
Tarikh al-Khulafa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p173
Then we can conclude that Imam Ali is * the Quran verbatim *. That is, Imam Ali is the Strong Rope of Allah also, because they (Quran and Ali) are non-separable. In fact, there are a huge number of traditions in authentic Sunni sources where Prophet said Quran and Ahlul-Bayt are inseparable and if Muslims want to remain in the right path, they should stick to BOTH of them. (Please refer to the article titled: Quran and Ahlul-Bayt). Therefore, one can conclude that those who separated from Ahlul-Bayt are the sectarian who divided into sects and were denounced by Allah and His prophet due to their divergence.

In fact, the opinion of majority is not a good criteria to distinguish the false from the truth. If you look at the Quran, you will see that Quran severely denounces the majority of by frequently saying that "the majority do not understand", "the majority do not use their logic", "the majority follow their whims"...

In another verse, Allah said:

"You are the best nation (Ummah) that has been raised up for the (benefit of) people. You enjoin the good and forbid the evil..." (Quran 3:110).
The best nation is also the Ahlul-Bayt. Let us remember that according to Quran, "nation" does not mean the whole people. This is even clear from the above verse that such Ummah (nation) are raised FOR benefiting the people. Thus Ummah can be only a subset of people and not the whole people. In fact one person can be a nation. Sometimes the act of a single person is worthier than the deeds of the whole nation. This was the case for Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali, as well as the case for Prophet Abraham, peace be upon them all. Quran states that Abraham (AS) was a nation (Ummah), meaning that his deeds was more valuable than all other people. Allah stated:

"Lo! Abraham was a nation (Ummah) who was obedient to Allah, by nature upright, and he was not of the idolaters" (Quran 16:120)
Thus, one single individual can be a nation in the language of Quran. As for the Verse 3:100, it is interesting to note that some Sunni scholars have narrated from Abu Ja'far (Imam Baqir (AS)) that:

Abu Ja'far (AS) said about the verse 'You are the best nation raised up for the (benefit of) people...(3:110)': "The Members of the House of the Prophet."
Sunni references:

Ibn Abi Hatam, as mentioned in:
al-Durr al-Manthoor, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti under commentary of verse 3:110 of holy Quran.
Also Allah mentioned in Quran:

"O' you who believe! Fear Allah and be with the truthful"
(Quran 9:119)
According to some Sunni Commentaries, "the truthful" means Imam Ali (AS):

Sunni reference:

Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, two reports: one from Ibn Mardawayh by Ibn Abbas and the second from Ibn Asakir by Abi Ja'far (AS).
This means that people should have feared Allah and should not have separated from Imam Ali (AS) after the demise of Prophet (PBUH&HF). This unfortunately did not happen at large, and therefore, unfortunate divisions followed it.

With respect to the world al-Siddeeq -- "The Truthful", there are many Sunni narrations in which the Messenger of Allah said:

The Truthful are three: Hazqeel (who was) the believer of the family of Pharaoh (see Quran 40:28), and Habeeb al-Najjar (who was) the believer of the family of Yaasin (see Quran 36:20), and Ali Ibn Abi Talib who is the most virtuous one among them (see Quran 9:119)."
Sunni references:

Abu Nu'aym and Ibn Asakir, on the authority of Abu Layla
Ibn al-Najjar, on the authority of Ibn Abbas
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 2, pp 192-193
In conclusion, we have shown in this article that the term Shia has been used in Quran for the followers of the great servants of Allah, and in the traditions of the Prophet for the followers of Imam Ali (AS). One who follows such divinely appointed Guide is safe from the disputes in the religion and has grasped the Strong Rope of Allah, and has been given the glad tiding of Paradise.

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Side Comments

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A Sunni brother wrote: Sunni means the one who follows the traditions (Sunnah) of the Prophet, and this is supported by the following verse of Quran:

Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar (beautiful pattern of conduct) for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (Quran 33:21)
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My comment was as follows:

1)
In the above verse neither the word "Sunnah" nor any of its derivative has been used. As I mentioned earlier, Allah has used the terminology of "Muslim" in its exact form, letter by letter, in the verse 22:78. Also Allah used the word "Shia" again in exact form in verse 37:83 for the Prophet Abraham. However, Allah never used the words such as "Sunni" or as "Ahlussunnah" for the followers of the Prophet (PBUH&HF).

2)
If you say we do not find such exact terminology, but we understand that the Prophet is our pattern, then one may say that Quran testifies that Prophet Abraham (AS) was a pattern for us as well:
"Indeed, there is for you an excellent exemplar (beautiful pattern of conduct) in Abraham..." (Quran 60:4)
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Notice that in the above verse, the phrase which has been used for Prophet Abraham (AS) is exactly the same as that of the previous quoted verse used for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF). That is true for the following verse as well:

Certainly there is for you in them (Abraham and his followers) an excellent exemplar (beautiful pattern of conduct) for him who fears Allah and the last day; and whoever turns back, then surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, the Praised. (Quran 60:6)
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Now please tell us if we can be called a Sunni because we follow Abraham's traditions? Certainly Prophet Muhammad followed the tradition of Prophet Abraham, yet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) was never called Sunni, as that result. Similarly, Prophet Abraham followed the traditions of Prophet Noah, but he was never called a Sunni. Quran mentioned that he was a Shia of Noah.

3)
The word "Sunnah" has used in Quran to refer to the custom of God and the way Allah conducts the affairs and the rules governing the universe (Sunnatullah). But here we are discussing the word Sunnah referred to the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and not the rules governing the universe. As such we are looking for the term such as "Sunnatu Rasoolillah".

4)
A word XXXX can be used in two ways:
XXXXX by definition
or

XXXXX by label

All Muslims are Sunni by definition, but only a group of people, which are famous to this name, are Sunni by label. How they got such label needs to be investigated though.

Also, all Muslims are "obedient" by definition, but there is no special group among Muslims who are called "obedient". This shows that having a certain characteristic by definition does not force us to specify such characteristic in our label. In fact, in most cases (not all cases) the label is just a stereotype and does not reflect the real attributes of the holder of such label. Sometime the label is used to allure people to specific version of something which is found in various versions, each of which is claimed to be genuine one, by different groups. As such, it wouldn't be an intelligent practice, in general, to identify the genuineness of something with its label.

Surely, the followers of the Prophet are supposed to follow his Sunnah by definition. But were they called Sunni when Prophet Muhammad was alive? or even few years after his demise? In other words, the question to be answered is: When did the title "Ahlussunnah wal Jama'ah" come into existence in the history of Islam for a specific group of Muslims?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:21 am

I read a book in which author gives some sura's name and ayats references from Quran-E-Sharif, in which he emphasizes that Shia sect is not born after the death Prophet Mohammad(S.A..) or Hazarat Ali(S.A.) but Shia sect was already there before them.
According the author Shia sect was there during the time of Hazarat Noah and Prophet Moses he gives some references from Hadish and from Quran, follows are some examples:-

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)" (Quran 37:83)

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy" (Quran 28:15)

Read the above references which has been taken from Quran and its clearly state the word Shia!!!! Now, my question does Shia sect was that time? I mean during Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses time? We beleive that Shia sect arised after the death of Prophet Mohammad when the quarral arised to whom to choose as a successor( calip) of Mohammad.

Our current Imam also quoted many times in his Farmans that Shia tradition is almost 1900 years old and my murid always receiving hidayats from their Imam since 19 hundred years (Note:- This is not the exact words and sentences as per farman) my another question, are Shia sect existed since 1900 or 1400 years ago? if we accept the above Quranic ayats than 1900 years is the time of Prophet Moses. Astagafirullah I do not say that our Imam quoted wrong figure but I need more clarification from scholar.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:32 am

agakhani wrote:I read a book in which author gives some sura's name and ayats references from Quran-E-Sharif, in which he emphasizes that Shia sect is not born after the death Prophet Mohammad(S.A..) or Hazarat Ali(S.A.) but Shia sect was already there before them.
According the author Shia sect was there during the time of Hazarat Noah and Prophet Moses he gives some references from Hadish and from Quran, follows are some examples:-

"And most surely Abraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)" (Quran 37:83)

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy" (Quran 28:15)

Read the above references which has been taken from Quran and its clearly state the word Shia!!!! Now, my question does Shia sect was that time? I mean during Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses time? We beleive that Shia sect arised after the death of Prophet Mohammad when the quarral arised to whom to choose as a successor( calip) of Mohammad.

Our current Imam also quoted many times in his Farmans that Shia tradition is almost 1900 years old and my murid always receiving hidayats from their Imam since 19 hundred years (Note:- This is not the exact words and sentences as per farman) my another question, are Shia sect existed since 1900 or 1400 years ago? if we accept the above Quranic ayats than 1900 years is the time of Prophet Moses. Astagafirullah I do not say that our Imam quoted wrong figure but I need more clarification from scholar.

1900 years ago would be around the time of Nabi Issa - Jesus Christ.
You should read up on the Essenenes of Lebanon.

Shams

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:07 pm

The term shia is used in quran for H.nuh[as] family ....family of H.Imran[as], H.Musa[as]....H.Ibrahim[as] and finally H.Muhammad[SAW]

Brother agakhani .......arent we all SHIA = party of allah [swt] ???????

If we promote that then i guess every other muslim is a SHIA

...whose party can be bigger than the party of allah [swt] ???

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:34 am

1900 years ago would be around the time of Nabi Issa - Jesus Christ.
You should read up on the Essenenes of Lebanon.
and Shiraz wrote:-
The term shia is used in quran for H.nuh[as] family ....family of H.Imran[as], H.Musa[as]....H.Ibrahim[as] and finally H.Muhammad[SAW]

Thanks for the correction Shams . but you and Shiraz both just eat my questions, I repeat my question here again was Shia sect existed at that time of Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses or not? the second question was our beloved Hazar Imam quoted in his many farman that my murid are receiving hidayat from their imam since 1900 ( hundred ) years. ( Should not be 1400 hundred years in farman) if we accept and many people also believe that Shia sect begun after the death of Prophet Mohammad but one book I just read "TARIKHUSSHIA" available in Urdu, Gujarati and English in this books author wrote that Shia sect was present at the time of Prophet Noah and Prophet Abraham.
Shiraz Bro, I do not agree with your explanation that the word Shia used in Quran is for family, can you elaborate little bit more? I read Quran many time and still reading but I never read that any interpreter has taken Shia word as a family, as per my little knowledge, may be I am wrong so please give me some more detail why youtook Shia word as a family?.
One honest suggestion please read any post carefully before answering any question.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:26 pm

Thanks for the correction Shams . but you and Shiraz both just eat my questions, I repeat my question here again was Shia sect existed at that time of Prophet Abraham and Prophet Moses or not? the second question was our beloved Hazar Imam quoted in his many farman that my murid are receiving hidayat from their imam since 1900 ( hundred ) years. ( Should not be 1400 hundred years in farman) if we accept and many people also believe that Shia sect begun after the death of Prophet Mohammad but one book I just read "TARIKHUSSHIA" available in Urdu, Gujarati and English in this books author wrote that Shia sect was present at the time of Prophet Noah and Prophet Abraham.
Shiraz Bro, I do not agree with your explanation that the word Shia used in Quran is for family, can you elaborate little bit more? I read Quran many time and still reading but I never read that any interpreter has taken Shia word as a family, as per my little knowledge, may be I am wrong so please give me some more detail why youtook Shia word as a family?.
One honest suggestion please read any post carefully before answering any question.

Sorry brother agakhani for some reason i couldnt log in....guess i was blocked by the admin ....but anyways coming back to the point.....its all about logic !!

1] who or what names are the believers of H.Ali[as] called ? The answer is those who believe in Ali or Party of Ali [shia]...correct ?

2] are the descendants of Ali Shia ? The answer again is YES

Having said this , you can take any prophet[as] and his descendants...they were all SHIA's and those who believed in them were called party of so and so prophet[as].....you dont need quran for that , you need to apply logic !

I would even go one step ahead and say that shia islam is not just 1900 years old.....It is there since the creation of 1st man...bcoz h.adam[as] himself was a prophet and those who followed him and his descendants were the party[shia] of h.adam[as]

Now some parties invite you towards siratal mustakim and some to hell fire[pharoah/ idol worshippers etc etc]

Every prophet comes with a package deal i.e Imam

and its not me who's saying this ....browse through this site and you'll come accross various people who'll support this....so my dearest friend if there is an imam with all 124000 prophets then how can Aga Khan stand and say that his family saga is just 1900 years old ??

Now thats my question !!!!

somebody is lying....it might be me or shamsB/meherali and others who have repeated it number of times that every prophet comes with a package deal i.e Imam E Zaman or is it that the firman itself has mistakes [inprint] ?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:30 am

Thanks for your reply, by the way I agree that all Prophets were came with their companions/Imams, for example Prophet Mohammad had Hazart Ali (s.a.) as his companion
(or we can say Imam) Prophet Moses had Haroun and Prophet Isa had John the Baptist I totally agree with this no dispute here but according your post
you are saying that the Shia sect was there during Hazarat Adam,(a.s.)? am I right? ok, now if you agree this that you just wrote in your above post then please give me
the name of the companion of Hazart Adam? another question you say Shia Sect was there
during the time of Hazarat Adam, what about before Hazarat Adam? Shia sect was not there before Hazart Adam (S.A.)? answer me please.
While reading the other religions theory and listening their believes they all claiming and believing that their religion is the oldest one and only their rellligion was there
since the birth of human being, Hindus even go further and saying that their "Satpanth" religion is there before the creation
of whole universe, now can you tell whom do we should believe and whom should we do not ? I mean Shia, Christian, Muslims or other religion
who say that their religions was there all the time, whose logic is true and whose doesn't?

Nobody has correct answer brother Shiraz, SO, IN MY OPINION LOGIC DOES NOT WORK IN RELIGIOUS THEORY AND THAT IS WHY
THERE ARE TOO MANY RELIGIONS IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW AND STILL POPPING UP NEW RELIGION EVERY OTHER WEEK,
WE NEED SOME KIND SOLID PROOF FOR THAT ( NOT THE LOGIC AND BELIEVES) AND THIS PROOF IS AS BELOW:-

એજી, આદ ઉનાદ થી હી પંથ સાચો,
હી પંથે ચાલી નહિ કોઈ વળીયો પાછો.

EJI AAD UNAAD THI HI PANTH SACHO,
HI PANTHE CHALI NAHI KOI VALIO PACHHO.
TRANSLATION

O brother, this religion (Satpanth/Ismaili) is true before the creation of universe,
no body had returned/disappointed (if the followers stayed on this shiratan mustakim) religion.

Let wait and see what other scholars (as you mentioned name of them) are saying but my research say that
Shia sect was there during Prophet Isa (S.A.)( so 1900 years mentioned by Hazar Imam in his farman is true) even before that as per the above gininic verses I rather believe our Imam's farman and ginans than logic
or some one's just imagination and belives, if some one not
agree this come forward and prove me wrong.
Admin do not block anybody's account as long as he/she obey the rules and regulation of Ismaili.net web site as per my thinking.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:11 pm

Let wait and see what other scholars (as you mentioned name of them) are saying but my research say that Shia sect was there during Prophet Isa (S.A.)( so 1900 years mentioned by Hazar Imam in his farman is true) even before that as per the above gininic verses I rather believe our Imam's farman and ginans than logic or some one's just imagination and belives, if some one not agree this come forward and prove me wrong.

Nobody is choking you to believe what they think, there is a freedom of speech and thought in islam.......there are several reasons why imam e zaman can be wrong

1] Logically speaking H.Ibrahim[as] was made imam[as] mentioned in quran so again logically speaking H.Ibrahim[as] came thousands of years before H.Issa[as] and H.Muhammad[saw] came into existance

2] H.Ismail[as] i.e son of H.Ibrahim[as] carried his progeny and was blessed by allah[swt] with several children who again carried the legacy of friend of allah[swt] = H.Ibrahim[as]

3] When allah[swt] can make a prophet into an Imam[as] then what makes you think that H.Adam[as] was only a prophet and so were his sons[as] ???

4] Bible gives us a clear picture that aaron[as] and his sons were the priest of high god ...read it and ull know....so again imamat was there during the time of prophet moses[as]

The problem is you dont wanna use logic where as quran is very clear when it says "never accept anything blindly" .....but again there is complete freedom in islam so you can believe whatever you want to !!

The family tree of H.Adam consists of 1,24,000 prophets ....each consisting of imam of the time to guide murids ......if so then some may be a prophet can act as a prophet and imam at the same time.

Admin do not block anybody's account as long as he/she obey the rules and regulation of Ismaili.net web site as per my thinking.

I have nothing against admin.....let him do his job

and just for your general knowledge ....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11550636/Fami ... f-Prophets[/quote]

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:46 am

Shiraz,
Thanks for your clarification at least one point we both are agree that Shia sect was there during the time of Prophet Moses and
that was my question brother.

As a true Ismaili sect follower I can not accept that Imam-e-Zaman can be wrong.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:16 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
Let wait and see what other scholars (as you mentioned name of them) are saying but my research say that Shia sect was there during Prophet Isa (S.A.)( so 1900 years mentioned by Hazar Imam in his farman is true) even before that as per the above gininic verses I rather believe our Imam's farman and ginans than logic or some one's just imagination and belives, if some one not agree this come forward and prove me wrong.
Nobody is choking you to believe what they think, there is a freedom of speech and thought in islam.......there are several reasons why imam e zaman can be wrong

1] Logically speaking H.Ibrahim[as] was made imam[as] mentioned in quran so again logically speaking H.Ibrahim[as] came thousands of years before H.Issa[as] and H.Muhammad[saw] came into existance

2] H.Ismail[as] i.e son of H.Ibrahim[as] carried his progeny and was blessed by allah[swt] with several children who again carried the legacy of friend of allah[swt] = H.Ibrahim[as]

3] When allah[swt] can make a prophet into an Imam[as] then what makes you think that H.Adam[as] was only a prophet and so were his sons[as] ???

4] Bible gives us a clear picture that aaron[as] and his sons were the priest of high god ...read it and ull know....so again imamat was there during the time of prophet moses[as]

The problem is you dont wanna use logic where as quran is very clear when it says "never accept anything blindly" .....but again there is complete freedom in islam so you can believe whatever you want to !!

The family tree of H.Adam consists of 1,24,000 prophets ....each consisting of imam of the time to guide murids ......if so then some may be a prophet can act as a prophet and imam at the same time.

Admin do not block anybody's account as long as he/she obey the rules and regulation of Ismaili.net web site as per my thinking.
I have nothing against admin.....let him do his job

and just for your general knowledge ....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11550636/Fami ... f-Prophets

[/quote]

@Veru - Who's your mentor? Akbarali Maherali? I don't doubt it.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:29 am

@ TRET ......I knew this was coming ! but iam afraid to say that when people like you stop using logic you start the blame game....and as always the scape goat is meherali , sorry to say but my mentor is not meherali as meherali does not believe in IMAMAT period !

Nice try, better luck next time

@ AGAKHANI.... Brother as i said there is complete freedom in our religion , But atleast we agree on onething that yes shia islam was there even before the existance of ISLAM/CHRISTIANITY/JUDAISM and beyond

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:18 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:@ TRET ......I knew this was coming ! but iam afraid to say that when people like you stop using logic you start the blame game....and as always the scape goat is meherali , sorry to say but my mentor is not meherali as meherali does not believe in IMAMAT period !

Nice try, better luck next time

@ AGAKHANI.... Brother as i said there is complete freedom in our religion , But atleast we agree on onething that yes shia islam was there even before the existance of ISLAM/CHRISTIANITY/JUDAISM and beyond

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:29 pm

shiraz.virani wrote:@ TRET ......I knew this was coming !

How come?! Do you guys something in common?! Or should I say do you guys have something in common to believe?! That tells a lot.

shiraz.virani wrote:...when people like you stop using logic...

You don't even know me. Do you think it's wise to judge someone from one statement?

shiraz.virani wrote:meherali does not believe in IMAMAT period !

The moment you doubt Imam of the time--Which you clearly stated, you did--, you stop believing in Imamat, or rather your believe in Imamat is filthy which is equal to not believing in it.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:47 pm

[quote[How come?! Do you guys something in common?! Or should I say do you guys have something in common to believe?! That tells a lot.[/quote]

whom are you trying to compare me with this time ??

After being a part of this website for tooo long I can easily assume that when somebody comes up with a question that is logical and when people could not answer that, they come up with names i.e associating them with meherali or some other guy , and i still remember you once told me to wake up in ur previous post so that gave me a clear idea of what was coming......it ok, you can stick to your no question asked system....if that works for you fine !! ...but just dont try to accuse someone who is here to learn and ask........thats what aga khan said in san antonio deedar........If you have any doubts ASK

You don't even know me. Do you think it's wise to judge someone from one statement?

A persons identity or mentality is revealed when he/she opens his/her mouth [ i think this was said once by imam ali[as] ] khair , do i have to say more ?

The moment you doubt Imam of the time--Which you clearly stated, you did--, you stop believing in Imamat, or rather your believe in Imamat is filthy which is equal to not believing in it.

There is no question of doubting Imam, what is said was and im still repeating myself here that Imam can make mistakes !! and i even proved it when it comes to the firman where is said ismailism is 1900 years old

Now I can be wrong, because 1900 years ago CATHOLICISM was widely spread and catholics have pretty much the same beliefs that ismailis do !!......not all of em but some of em !

But again I personally believe that shia islam traces its roots wayyyyyy back till H.Ibrahim[as] and beyond that which i just proved in my previous posts !!!

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:24 am

shiraz.virani wrote:...Imam can make mistakes !! ...

Nuff said!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:34 am

Do you guys something in common?! Or should I say do you guys have something in common to believe?! That tells a lot.

Tret,
Which guys are you talking about? I send' LAANAT" towards A.M. and others who comes in this website and say something wrong about Ismailism, Ismaili Tariqa, Ismaili prayer and Imamat.

Read my above post dated 22nd, October, 2010, here I past it again

"As a true Ismaili sect follower I can not accept that Imam-e-Zaman can be wrong".

Above sentence is the solid proof that I am true Ismaili follower, by the way I am proud to be a Ismaili and do you know that I pray 'PIRSHAH' tasbih 40 times almost every night as per the Farman of Sultan Mohammad Shah? why? because Allah gave me a birth In Ismaili sect.
Last, read my any post you will never find any thing wrong or not appropriate and against Ismailism, Imamat, and Ismaili tradition.
Imams are MAAS'UM they have Noorani power they can not be wrong or can not be lie, this is not only Ismaili belief but most Shia sect also believe same.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:19 am

Above sentence is the solid proof that I am true Ismaili follower, by the way I am proud to be a Ismaili and do you know that I pray 'PIRSHAH' tasbih 40 times almost every night as per the Farman of Sultan Mohammad Shah? why? because Allah gave me a birth In Ismaili sect.
Last, read my any post you will never find any thing wrong or not appropriate and against Ismailism, Imamat, and Ismaili tradition.
Imams are MAAS'UM they have Noorani power they can not be wrong or can not be lie, this is not only Ismaili belief but most Shia sect also believe same.

I dont think he was talking to you aga khani.....he was comparing me with meherali and said we both have some similarities, so chillax !!

Saying PIRSHAH , TAUBA, ALLAH HU AKBAR is again a personal choice which has nothing to do with current topic...........and just by saying pirshah one does not become ismaili....Ismailism is based on logic......Dont forget that the fatimid empire once ruled Egypt = A land full of mysteries [pyramids, ancient scriptures etc etc] ......Ismailis at that time was more advanced than any other arabic sect.....people used to come to the darbar of our imams to learn from them......Our imams are not crazy to just find a place and rule....nope I disagree, there was a reason why that land was chosen and that is because its the fountain head of knowledge and mysteries !!.......in short full of scientific discovery !!

I forget the name of this guy but do you know that the first person who tried to fly [glider] was a muslim ??? But unfortunately he failed...but that dint make him stop !!

Ibn Sina again is one of the examples

But imams can and still make mistakes, when imam said 1900 years of history then you have to ask 1900 years ago what time was it ?? Was it the time of the great grand father of rasool[saw] ?? or the father of rasool[saw] ??

Was imam talking about his arab lineage passing from H.Ibrahim[as] to H.Ismail[as]....to H.Adnan[as] .....till quraish tribe [ which dates back to 1900 years if iam not mistaken] ..........does this make sense ???

See as i said i can be wrong or right......it just depends on what context aga khan was talking ???

Or was he talking about shia islam in general where H.Ali[as] father was a close cousin of the grandfather of rasool[saw] ???

Islam talks about science in detail..........and science has been there since the day of creation...but how do we know ?? Only when we use Logic

AnIsmaili786 · Post by **AnIsmaili786** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:32 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
Above sentence is the solid proof that I am true Ismaili follower, by the way I am proud to be a Ismaili and do you know that I pray 'PIRSHAH' tasbih 40 times almost every night as per the Farman of Sultan Mohammad Shah? why? because Allah gave me a birth In Ismaili sect.
Last, read my any post you will never find any thing wrong or not appropriate and against Ismailism, Imamat, and Ismaili tradition.
Imams are MAAS'UM they have Noorani power they can not be wrong or can not be lie, this is not only Ismaili belief but most Shia sect also believe same.
I dont think he was talking to you aga khani.....he was comparing me with meherali and said we both have some similarities, so chillax !!

Saying PIRSHAH , TAUBA, ALLAH HU AKBAR is again a personal choice which has nothing to do with current topic...........and just by saying pirshah one does not become ismaili....Ismailism is based on logic......Dont forget that the fatimid empire once ruled Egypt = A land full of mysteries [pyramids, ancient scriptures etc etc] ......Ismailis at that time was more advanced than any other arabic sect.....people used to come to the darbar of our imams to learn from them......Our imams are not crazy to just find a place and rule....nope I disagree, there was a reason why that land was chosen and that is because its the fountain head of knowledge and mysteries !!.......in short full of scientific discovery !!

I forget the name of this guy but do you know that the first person who tried to fly [glider] was a muslim ??? But unfortunately he failed...but that dint make him stop !!

Ibn Sina again is one of the examples

But imams can and still make mistakes, when imam said 1900 years of history then you have to ask 1900 years ago what time was it ?? Was it the time of the great grand father of rasool[saw] ?? or the father of rasool[saw] ??

Was imam talking about his arab lineage passing from H.Ibrahim[as] to H.Ismail[as]....to H.Adnan[as] .....till quraish tribe [ which dates back to 1900 years if iam not mistaken] ..........does this make sense ???

See as i said i can be wrong or right......it just depends on what context aga khan was talking ???

Or was he talking about shia islam in general where H.Ali[as] father was a close cousin of the grandfather of rasool[saw] ???

Islam talks about science in detail..........and science has been there since the day of creation...but how do we know ?? Only when we use Logic

You claim to be an Ismaili, yet you contradict the essence of the religion, by saying "Imam can/still make mistakes".

The history which dates back 1900 years that HIS HIGHNESS The Aga Khan was talking about dates back to the time of Hazrat Issa. A little research on your part could have helped you from making this assumption of saying the Imam makes mistake.

Ya Ali Madad
Nadeem

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:59 pm

Imam has not mentioned that Imamat has started from 1900 years ago, nor He said Ismailism as religion emerged 1900 years ago.....
When some fails to understand Ginan/Quran or Farman then he/she thinks it as wrong however it is not. In one of the waez, Abualy missionary has explained the significance of this 1900 years.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:25 am

Munir,
If I am not forgetting then yes Imam has mentioned about 1900 years of imamat not one time but two or three times in differents way.
I will search in farman books and I will post the date, place of these farmans ASAP

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:42 pm

You are right, Imam has mentioned about 1900 in Farman. I know there is farman in Kalam-e-Imam-e-Zaman book in which it is mentioned. I am not denying that. Whatever Imam has said is absolutely true. What I am trying to say is that the farman farman does not say that first Ismaili Imam was 1900 year back (as it was misunderstood by some members). There is significance to what was there 1900 years back and as I said in my previous post, there is a waez of Abualy missionary, in which he had explained about this "1900 years". May be you would had listened it.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:06 am

Yes I did listned it couple of times, there were Imams at that time but during that time imams roll was hidden but after the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) death Imamat roll become more important in comparision of Nabuwat.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:23 am

agakhani wrote:Munir,
If I am not forgetting then yes Imam has mentioned about 1900 years of imamat not one time but two or three times in differents way.
I will search in farman books and I will post the date, place of these farmans ASAP

'

Agakhani bhai - The Imam mentioned 1900 years of history of the Jamat. Not of Imamat.

Shams

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:48 am

Thanks for the correction Shams, I will read that farmans again.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:06 pm

Mazhar,

After our arguments about Shia sect! whether it was before prophet Mohd or not?, I looked in my library and find out one interesting book name "TARIKHSHHIA" available in Urdu, English, Gujarati and Persian in this book author writes that Shia sect was present at the time of of Prophet Noah, prophet Moses and even the time of prophet Ibrahim!!!! but forget about this book and author just for now I am giving you proof of our present imam's farmans! Our current beloved MHI told us 4-5 times in his farmans that our Jamats are receiving hidayats ( dorvani) from their imams since 1900 years!!! ( nineteen hundred years)!! does imam make mistake putting 1900 instead of 1400 ? ( astagafirullah) or he does not know the real history of our Jamat? if not then why he quoted 1900 hundred not 1400 hundred years?
Brother Mazar,
I know imam never make mistake and this mistake is almost 500 years! so I personally belive that some thing is not right! in those years!
I am asking you brother, what does the above farmans means? is should not 1400 years? because that was the real time of prophet Mohammad!! and H. Ali (s.a.) respectively! Why MHI told us 1900 years? and not the 1400 years?? brother does not this also prove that Shia jamats were there during prophet Jesus's time!!

It is my personal policy not to quote any farmans but if you really wants to make sure what our current H. Imam really told in jamats in different places then I will give you the name of the place, country name and date of the farmans so that you can make sure. but remember this please do not find any mistakes from those farmans. O.K.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:43 pm

Mazhat,
I am also waiting for your answer whether Shias were before prophet Mohd or not?

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:10 pm

agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1998
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

Posted: 23 Feb 2015 11:06 am Post subject: THE BOOK NAME 'Tarikhshhia.

Mazhar,

After our arguments about Shia sect! whether it was before prophet Mohd or not?, I looked in my library and find out one interesting book name "TARIKHSHHIA" available in Urdu, English, Gujarati and Persian in this book author writes that Shia sect was present at the time of of Prophet Noah, prophet Moses and even the time of prophet Ibrahim!!!! but forget about this book and author just for now I am giving you proof of our present imam's farmans! Our current beloved MHI told us 4-5 times in his farmans that our Jamats are receiving hidayats ( dorvani) from their imams since 1900 years!!! ( nineteen hundred years)!! does imam make mistake putting 1900 instead of 1400 ? ( astagafirullah) or he does not know the real history of our Jamat? if not then why he quoted 1900 hundred not 1400 hundred years?
Brother Mazar,
I know imam never make mistake and this mistake is almost 500 years! so I personally belive that some thing is not right! in those years!
I am asking you brother, what does the above farmans means? is should not 1400 years? because that was the real time of prophet Mohammad!! and H. Ali (s.a.) respectively! Why MHI told us 1900 years? and not the 1400 years?? brother does not this also prove that Shia jamats were there during prophet Jesus's time!!

It is my personal policy not to quote any farmans but if you really wants to make sure what our current H. Imam really told in jamats in different places then I will give you the name of the place, country name and date of the farmans so that you can make sure. but remember this please do not find any mistakes from those farmans. O.K.
Back to top

FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=" agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1998
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

Posted: 21 Mar 2015 10:43 am Post subject:

Mazhat,
I am also waiting for your answer whether Shias were before prophet Mohd or not?

REPLY TO AGHAKHANI,
Sorry to reply you late, because I read your this particular post yesterday in different thread.
The word SHIA in Quran is used 9 times with it derivatives. It is used in meaning of group or firqa. According to dictionary the word Shia means group,jamait, firqa, it is also used as brothery or community and follower. Historically the word Shia poped up in wars between Mowla Ali and Amir Mu'awiyyah. At that time to distinguish between armies; they called Shian e Ali and Shian e Mu'awiyyah. Later on shian e Mu'awiyyah evaporated but shian e Ali are present till today.Shian e Ali also means followers of Ali and we Ismailis are amongst Shian e Ali.The phrase Shian e Ali is not used in Quran. In surah Qasas # 15, the word Shia is used 2 times in same ayah regarding the event related to Moses and Qubti. Moses killed the Qubti during a brawl to save his fellow Israili. In other sense Moses was a killer who took life of a human being for a petty issue. Later God forgave him and installed as a prophet. Is it an irony or favours!?
Regarding the Farman 1900 yrs you mentioned, please quote that FARMAN completely with date, place, and country, we have to find reason and back groundand in which context Imam used 1900 yrs.
Aghakhani, I never argue or comment on the genuine Farmans.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:17 pm

There is no way i will let anyone post a farman completely here. Do not even try!

If you were an Ismaili, you would have heard in jamatkhana those Farmans with 1,900 years of history, you would not need to have the complete text to believe in those.

I again remind all of you that it is not permitted to post entire Farmans here because on the Internet those who pretend to be young may be old and those who pretent to be woman maybe men and those who pretend to be waezins may be anything but. Donot assume everyone here is an Ismaili. Especially if someone provokes you into releasing entire farmans.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:59 am

mazhar wrote:Regarding the Farman 1900 yrs you mentioned, please quote that FARMAN completely with date, place, and country, we have to find reason and back groundand in which context Imam used 1900 yrs.
Aghakhani, I never argue or comment on the genuine Farmans.

"While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered."(Sep 25, 1964)
It is not just 1900 years but thousands of years!

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Mar 26, 2015 1:55 pm

( Kmaherali wrote ) "While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered."(Sep 25, 1964)
It is not just 1900 years but thousands of years"

Reply to Kmaherali,
Km, Is above paragraph Farman or a message? When HI is talking about
thousands of years,obviously He is refering to from time of prophet Adam.
Means from one Ismael to other Ismael to Adam. Islam is from very begining, it is from time of prophet Adam and is natural and universal religion.

www.ismaili.net

SHIA IN QURAN AND HADITH

SHIA IN QURAN AND HADITH

how old the shia sect? 1900 or 1400 years?

Re: how old the shia sect? 1900 or 1400 years?

not agree.

That mean Shia sect was there.

THE BOOK NAME 'Tarikhshhia.