Thanks to the Admin we are getting a better understanding of this case. As for the conversation, it is important to get a clear understanding why this person has hatred for the defendants involved.
If this person is exposed, it will open up a lot for the betterment of the Jamat. The reason for this is because many years have gone by where certain individuals in power have made significant changes in our religious practice. It was the leaders who made the push for the change in the dua in 1956. It was the leaders who banded together to change the ginans. It was the leaders who ensured that Hazer Imam's pictures were removed from the front of the Jamat Khane. Our ginans today have many words that were changed and authorized by the councils. What right does anybody have to change the words of the Pir? Who has the right to change the words of a person who bears the light of Muhammad? If that is the case, then change the Quran, change the Bible, change the Torah. Why go after the ginans?
The leaders are responsible for the removal of Pir Sadardin's dua and the changes in the ginans. In Anant Akharo, many individuals recite the words:
Ali anant anant
Ali anantejo Swami Shah
Anate jo ant tuhi jane ji
The real words are supposed to be:
Hari anant anant
Hari annatejo Swami Shah
Anante jo ant tuhi jane ji
Who has the right to remove the words Hari and place Ali? Some person with limited intelligence with propose that Hari and Ali is the same thing. My question is, even if it is the same, who are we to change somebody's words? If I were to go further, show me one proof in writing that Hazer Imam has authorized the changes in the ginans. There is no single document in existence that explicitly is by the Imam. I challenge anybody to come up with it. And that challenge doesn't include meetings, I'm speaking of a word for word statement by the Imam saying that these words in the ginans have to be changed.
Why don't you go into the Quran and change the word Allah to God. Simple isn't it? Means the same doesn't it? After all, the name Allah is a pagen name for the father of Allat, Al-Uzza, and Manat. It is also 1400 years old. Go publicly and declare to the whole Muslim community that we should abandon the word Allah for God. See if you make it alive.
The Muslim Ummah doesn't even want to remove the Arabic from a 1400 year old book, then what makes you think they will accept changing one single word from it? Yet Ismailis have taken it upon themselves to change the words of the Pir.
The Pir is the manifestation of God. That means his words are divine. So those who propose to change the Ginans are changing the words of God. That is not our right. Part of this case in court will bring this issue to the forefront, because no leadership can get away from damaging intellectual properties.
Nagib Tajdin has done a wonderful job distributing the farmans. At least he did it when no Tariqah Board had the guts to do so. It is now a fight between the Leaders and the defendants, not the Imam against the defendants. I don't see how a person like Nagib, who believes Ali is Allah, could ever go against the Imam. I think it is up to Nagib to show us who is behind the conversations and who tried to forge the Imam's signature so that we may hold these people accountable not only for this case, but for the continuous crimes against intellectual property in the ginans, farmans, and dua by the leadership.
Sincerely,
Samir Noorali
kalam-e-imam-e-zaman
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star_munir
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If some one behaves in a particular manner, there is some reason behind it. Why Nagib had doubted the letter? There may be several reasons for it. One may be his past experiences.
Following was posted by Nagib once, in ismaili.net
The false information that Hazar Imam may have approved changes in the ginans has been discussed several times at various world Ismailia Assiations meeting [ITREB was named Ismailia Association before 1986] and each time it has been concluded that this was false news by people who wanted those changes. Each time it was concluded that Hazar Imam never wanted those changes.
I have read personaly some of the reports during that time [pre-1986] and at that time I also had copies but this is a long time ago and after all the moving the documents are not handy. But it is always sad that documents disappear faster then false rumours.
Nagib
Alnaz and Nagib had disagreed with leaders who believe in editing Farmans. Alnaz Jiwa, in his defence, has blamed few leaders who believe that it is necessary for them to edit the Farmans.
Following was posted by Nagib once, in ismaili.net
The false information that Hazar Imam may have approved changes in the ginans has been discussed several times at various world Ismailia Assiations meeting [ITREB was named Ismailia Association before 1986] and each time it has been concluded that this was false news by people who wanted those changes. Each time it was concluded that Hazar Imam never wanted those changes.
I have read personaly some of the reports during that time [pre-1986] and at that time I also had copies but this is a long time ago and after all the moving the documents are not handy. But it is always sad that documents disappear faster then false rumours.
Nagib
Alnaz and Nagib had disagreed with leaders who believe in editing Farmans. Alnaz Jiwa, in his defence, has blamed few leaders who believe that it is necessary for them to edit the Farmans.
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samirnoorali
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:18 pm
Exposure
It is quite clear that Nagib and Alnaz are exposing Shafik Sachedina as the person who has forged the letters sent to them under the signature of Hazer Imam. Two things are important to note. First there was a phone call made, which was 16 minutes and 43 seconds long. Second, there were letters sent to the defendants which they do not acknowledge as authentic.
1. What was said in the conversation that was considered threatening?
2. What was in the letters that made it obvious it was a fake apart from the signature? Surely, the content of the letter must not be to the liking of both defendents.
3. Was there or was there not a reply from Prince Amyn Mohamed trying to confirm the letters?
4. Who were the letters, that came from Aiglemont, sent to - Nagib, Alnaz, or both?
It seems the motive by Shafik can only be deemed as jealousy. Perhaps he was jealous and he wanted to exercise his authority over Nagib. It is true, as mentioned in the recent exposure, that Nabib has spent many decades trying to bring happiness to the Imam – vastly through his own expenses.
It is now important to differentiate between who is really against who. This, according to the defendants is not a case against the Imam. Neither of the defendants will say that they are trying to fight the Imam in any way. As far as the defendants are concerned, their fight is with Shafik Sachedina. Shafik Sachedina happens to be in a leadership position as Head of the Department of Jamati Institutions, which brings him and the LIF to the forefront. That would mean this case is between the leadership and the jamat, not the Imam at all.
It could very well be, and it is up to this website to bring about further evidence, that Shafik Sachedina does not want to be exposed in this affair. I think exposure is a good thing because it brings justice to Nagib and Alnaz whose reputation has been ruined in the Ismaili community. If they want to prove themselves innocent, they must expose to the public what exactly happened in the telephone conversation and the letters. Only that will help the Jamat understand what is brewing behind the scenes.
We also need to see the LIF announcement again. Since the defendants are confident that Shafik ordered for a message to be sent, then what exactly was said that makes that obvious?
Part of this exercise is to question the leadership. The leadership is guilty of many past violations of Ismaili doctrine, namely in the Ginans and Farmans. Since the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, there has been a slow but steady movement by the leadership to remove the Imam’s divine status and paint him as an ordinary human being. Its timeline is as follows:
1905 – Juma Bhagat and many pious Ismailis went to the Imam to dispute “Das Avatar.”
1908 – Haji Bibi Case. Khojki Ginans were transliterated into Gujrati. Ginans began to change. Das Avatar was removed in many Ginans for Abrahamic Prophets, Hari was changed to Ali, and Swami to Mowla. To Munivar Bhai Moti – the book of creation was never printed.
1937 - Many of our people went to the Imam to change “Ali Allah” to “Ali un Wali Allah.”
1947 – Pakistan became an independent country.
1950 – On February 18th, a farman was made in Karachi Pakistan saying that the dua is now revised.
1950 – On April 29th, 1950 both the Das Avatar and Ali Allah were removed. Gat Pat Dua also changed. Ali and Mohamad are one God was changed to Ali and Mohammad are from the Noor of Allah. The lineage of the Pirs was dropped entirely. Pirshah changed to Ali Mohammad. 1st edited version.
1956 – A letter, apparently from the Imam, was sent to Prince Karim about further changes.
1956 – 2nd edited version of the dua was made, retaining only the Arabic, not Hindustani. Dua, Gat Pat, and Tasbih became separate entities. Stuti or opening ginan praising Nakank as the last manifestation of God was removed. Das Avatar was removed from prayers and funerals.
1957 – 3rd edited edition of dua was made, prostration to the Imam was removed, associating the Prophet as divine was removed, and to redo the lineage of Imamat the 5 Holy bodies was inserted in the sixth part to ensure Das Avatar was never brought up again.
1990’s – The pictures of the Imam were removed from the front of Jamat Khane. Dua niyat kheir was altered and “kish amar putya” was removed. Ginans underwent print that changed Anant Akharo, especially the words Hari to Ali and Swami to Mowla. Prescribed incense to be used in Jamat Khane in Pir Sadardin’s Dua, namely Dup, Loban, or Agar Chandan, was replaced with Agar Bhati - a low grade incense.
2010 – Still pending an Ismaili Namaz or Salat prayer.
As we can see, history shows that there was more going on behind the scenes then most people are aware of. Change is always accepted, but these were not merely changes. This was complete makeover. One part of Ismaili history says that the Imam is God, the other half says he is not. One doctrine says he is divine and that we must prostrate to him, the other doctrine says he is not divine, but rather from the divine, and that only Allah is to be bowed down to. If that was the case, then from the time of the Prophet till 1950, all the followers of the Imams were wrong?
This was not a change for anybody’s benefit. Not only was the doctrine changed, but in the 1990’s the pictures of the Imam were removed from the front of the Jamat Khane, and two side pictures were placed in such a manner that they both faced in the same direction as the Jamat. I challenge anybody to bring fourth one single document by the Imam that gave the order to remove the pictures from the front and only keep them on the side. Show me one document by the Imam that says that the Ginans should be changed. Show me one document by the Imam that says Ali Allah is wrong. Show me one document that says that Das Avatar is wrong (mind you the farman about leaving the 9 manifestations doesn’t count because he claims that we should still follow the tenth manifestation).
This is a systematic effort by certain Ismailis to eradicate the divinity of the Imam as was taught by the Pirs. Imam Sultan Muhammad illustrated that the entire dua depends on Ali Allah, and not that it was wrong. According to him, those who think it is wrong are ignorant. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah also defended Das Avatar and mentioned that it is a part of human history. How can the Imam defend these two points and then five years later remove them himself from the dua? It is an absolute contradiction. Why would he defend his divinity and then five years later refute it?
The answer to this is that there are many Ismailis who are part of the faith who don’t accept the Imam as divine. Unfortunately this consists of the vast majority of people. Ismailis are grouped into three categories:
1. Those who accept the Imam as Allah.
2. Those who don’t believe he is physically Allah, but rather has the Noor of Allah.
3. Those who don’t believe he is Allah or the Noor of Allah.
The second category has to be clarified. If somebody is the Creator then he is the Creator. If somebody is a painter, then he is a painter. Let there be no confusion in this. Now, the second category should not exist. It exists because certain Ismailis are uncertain as to whether he is or isn’t Allah. Therefore, they have invented a “loop hole” which allows their brains to bend logic into claiming that the Imam is not physically Allah, but rather he is the bearer of the Noor.
Now some very clever person will zip through the Imam’s interviews and show that he himself said he is the bearer of the Noor. Bravo, if you found this interview. But you are not using your intelligence fully here. As far as it goes with the Imam, the equation doesn’t lie. Pir Sadardin taught the words Ali Allah. That means Ali is Allah. As an equation it can be expressed as Ali = Allah. It doesn’t matter whether you speak about it physically or spiritually, the point is that he is who he is.
The individuals in the second category also have another strange but profound habit. Whenever they cannot answer or fathom something they usually resort to stating that deeper insight is esoteric not exoteric. Bravo once again. Now that you have used two new words, doesn’t give you a pass around the facts. The fact is that Pir Sadardin converted many Ismailis and told them that Ali is Allah. In addition to that, many Ismailis from Afghanistan, Tajikistan, or elsewhere are also bound to Pir Sadardin because he was the Pir of that time. Therefore no Ismaili, regardless of their background, can deny why their forefathers adopted Ismailism. The three categories of Ismailis can be summarized in the following way:
1. Ali is Allah.
2. Ali is and yet isn’t Allah
3. Ali is not Allah.
Or
Pir Sadardin taught the first category. With the removal of his dua and the changes in the ginans the second and third category gained more power and over time significantly outnumbered the first category. Today we are left with the majority in the third category, a sizeable portion in the second category, and a minority in the first category. There was no movement by any Ismaili group to question why the dua was changed. There was no movement by any Ismaili group to question why the pictures were removed. The majority accepted it under the guise that the Imam has ordered it. Where is your intelligence? You are allowed to question. I’m not saying one should challenge the Imam. But if one day a Jamat is told to believe Ali is Allah and the next day they are told not to believe that, then one would naturally have questions.
The point is that the leadership has caused the Imam lots of grief in the past. They have challenged the Imam’s position. We must protect the Ginans and the Imam’s identity from the literature of the Councils who are on a campaign to turn us into Sunni Muslims.
1. What was said in the conversation that was considered threatening?
2. What was in the letters that made it obvious it was a fake apart from the signature? Surely, the content of the letter must not be to the liking of both defendents.
3. Was there or was there not a reply from Prince Amyn Mohamed trying to confirm the letters?
4. Who were the letters, that came from Aiglemont, sent to - Nagib, Alnaz, or both?
It seems the motive by Shafik can only be deemed as jealousy. Perhaps he was jealous and he wanted to exercise his authority over Nagib. It is true, as mentioned in the recent exposure, that Nabib has spent many decades trying to bring happiness to the Imam – vastly through his own expenses.
It is now important to differentiate between who is really against who. This, according to the defendants is not a case against the Imam. Neither of the defendants will say that they are trying to fight the Imam in any way. As far as the defendants are concerned, their fight is with Shafik Sachedina. Shafik Sachedina happens to be in a leadership position as Head of the Department of Jamati Institutions, which brings him and the LIF to the forefront. That would mean this case is between the leadership and the jamat, not the Imam at all.
It could very well be, and it is up to this website to bring about further evidence, that Shafik Sachedina does not want to be exposed in this affair. I think exposure is a good thing because it brings justice to Nagib and Alnaz whose reputation has been ruined in the Ismaili community. If they want to prove themselves innocent, they must expose to the public what exactly happened in the telephone conversation and the letters. Only that will help the Jamat understand what is brewing behind the scenes.
We also need to see the LIF announcement again. Since the defendants are confident that Shafik ordered for a message to be sent, then what exactly was said that makes that obvious?
Part of this exercise is to question the leadership. The leadership is guilty of many past violations of Ismaili doctrine, namely in the Ginans and Farmans. Since the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, there has been a slow but steady movement by the leadership to remove the Imam’s divine status and paint him as an ordinary human being. Its timeline is as follows:
1905 – Juma Bhagat and many pious Ismailis went to the Imam to dispute “Das Avatar.”
1908 – Haji Bibi Case. Khojki Ginans were transliterated into Gujrati. Ginans began to change. Das Avatar was removed in many Ginans for Abrahamic Prophets, Hari was changed to Ali, and Swami to Mowla. To Munivar Bhai Moti – the book of creation was never printed.
1937 - Many of our people went to the Imam to change “Ali Allah” to “Ali un Wali Allah.”
1947 – Pakistan became an independent country.
1950 – On February 18th, a farman was made in Karachi Pakistan saying that the dua is now revised.
1950 – On April 29th, 1950 both the Das Avatar and Ali Allah were removed. Gat Pat Dua also changed. Ali and Mohamad are one God was changed to Ali and Mohammad are from the Noor of Allah. The lineage of the Pirs was dropped entirely. Pirshah changed to Ali Mohammad. 1st edited version.
1956 – A letter, apparently from the Imam, was sent to Prince Karim about further changes.
1956 – 2nd edited version of the dua was made, retaining only the Arabic, not Hindustani. Dua, Gat Pat, and Tasbih became separate entities. Stuti or opening ginan praising Nakank as the last manifestation of God was removed. Das Avatar was removed from prayers and funerals.
1957 – 3rd edited edition of dua was made, prostration to the Imam was removed, associating the Prophet as divine was removed, and to redo the lineage of Imamat the 5 Holy bodies was inserted in the sixth part to ensure Das Avatar was never brought up again.
1990’s – The pictures of the Imam were removed from the front of Jamat Khane. Dua niyat kheir was altered and “kish amar putya” was removed. Ginans underwent print that changed Anant Akharo, especially the words Hari to Ali and Swami to Mowla. Prescribed incense to be used in Jamat Khane in Pir Sadardin’s Dua, namely Dup, Loban, or Agar Chandan, was replaced with Agar Bhati - a low grade incense.
2010 – Still pending an Ismaili Namaz or Salat prayer.
As we can see, history shows that there was more going on behind the scenes then most people are aware of. Change is always accepted, but these were not merely changes. This was complete makeover. One part of Ismaili history says that the Imam is God, the other half says he is not. One doctrine says he is divine and that we must prostrate to him, the other doctrine says he is not divine, but rather from the divine, and that only Allah is to be bowed down to. If that was the case, then from the time of the Prophet till 1950, all the followers of the Imams were wrong?
This was not a change for anybody’s benefit. Not only was the doctrine changed, but in the 1990’s the pictures of the Imam were removed from the front of the Jamat Khane, and two side pictures were placed in such a manner that they both faced in the same direction as the Jamat. I challenge anybody to bring fourth one single document by the Imam that gave the order to remove the pictures from the front and only keep them on the side. Show me one document by the Imam that says that the Ginans should be changed. Show me one document by the Imam that says Ali Allah is wrong. Show me one document that says that Das Avatar is wrong (mind you the farman about leaving the 9 manifestations doesn’t count because he claims that we should still follow the tenth manifestation).
This is a systematic effort by certain Ismailis to eradicate the divinity of the Imam as was taught by the Pirs. Imam Sultan Muhammad illustrated that the entire dua depends on Ali Allah, and not that it was wrong. According to him, those who think it is wrong are ignorant. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah also defended Das Avatar and mentioned that it is a part of human history. How can the Imam defend these two points and then five years later remove them himself from the dua? It is an absolute contradiction. Why would he defend his divinity and then five years later refute it?
The answer to this is that there are many Ismailis who are part of the faith who don’t accept the Imam as divine. Unfortunately this consists of the vast majority of people. Ismailis are grouped into three categories:
1. Those who accept the Imam as Allah.
2. Those who don’t believe he is physically Allah, but rather has the Noor of Allah.
3. Those who don’t believe he is Allah or the Noor of Allah.
The second category has to be clarified. If somebody is the Creator then he is the Creator. If somebody is a painter, then he is a painter. Let there be no confusion in this. Now, the second category should not exist. It exists because certain Ismailis are uncertain as to whether he is or isn’t Allah. Therefore, they have invented a “loop hole” which allows their brains to bend logic into claiming that the Imam is not physically Allah, but rather he is the bearer of the Noor.
Now some very clever person will zip through the Imam’s interviews and show that he himself said he is the bearer of the Noor. Bravo, if you found this interview. But you are not using your intelligence fully here. As far as it goes with the Imam, the equation doesn’t lie. Pir Sadardin taught the words Ali Allah. That means Ali is Allah. As an equation it can be expressed as Ali = Allah. It doesn’t matter whether you speak about it physically or spiritually, the point is that he is who he is.
The individuals in the second category also have another strange but profound habit. Whenever they cannot answer or fathom something they usually resort to stating that deeper insight is esoteric not exoteric. Bravo once again. Now that you have used two new words, doesn’t give you a pass around the facts. The fact is that Pir Sadardin converted many Ismailis and told them that Ali is Allah. In addition to that, many Ismailis from Afghanistan, Tajikistan, or elsewhere are also bound to Pir Sadardin because he was the Pir of that time. Therefore no Ismaili, regardless of their background, can deny why their forefathers adopted Ismailism. The three categories of Ismailis can be summarized in the following way:
1. Ali is Allah.
2. Ali is and yet isn’t Allah
3. Ali is not Allah.
Or
Pir Sadardin taught the first category. With the removal of his dua and the changes in the ginans the second and third category gained more power and over time significantly outnumbered the first category. Today we are left with the majority in the third category, a sizeable portion in the second category, and a minority in the first category. There was no movement by any Ismaili group to question why the dua was changed. There was no movement by any Ismaili group to question why the pictures were removed. The majority accepted it under the guise that the Imam has ordered it. Where is your intelligence? You are allowed to question. I’m not saying one should challenge the Imam. But if one day a Jamat is told to believe Ali is Allah and the next day they are told not to believe that, then one would naturally have questions.
The point is that the leadership has caused the Imam lots of grief in the past. They have challenged the Imam’s position. We must protect the Ginans and the Imam’s identity from the literature of the Councils who are on a campaign to turn us into Sunni Muslims.
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29774
EXCLUSIVE: Evidence for Aga Khan Lawsuit - multipart report - 2010-05-01
Saturday, 2010, May 8
What and who triggered the announcements of LIF in all JK of the world? That is an important question in the matter of the Copyright Lawsuit purported to be from “The Aga Khan.”
In February, long before the lawsuit, there was a phone call received by one of the defendants after he reported to Aiglemont that he had discovered that the Imam’s signature was being forged.
Why was it necessary to forge Imam’s signature? Who did it? How many more forgeries were done?
All these were questions in the mind of one of the defendants, that morning of 17th February 2010, when he received a threatening phone call to silence him. It was a miracle that, the same day, for the record, he decided to put that conversation in writing.
Heritage News is disclosing part of the document here as it will be one of the many documents submitted in Court as evidence that there is more to this lawsuit then meets the eyes.
EXCLUSIVE: Evidence for Aga Khan Lawsuit - multipart report - 2010-05-01
Saturday, 2010, May 8
What and who triggered the announcements of LIF in all JK of the world? That is an important question in the matter of the Copyright Lawsuit purported to be from “The Aga Khan.”
In February, long before the lawsuit, there was a phone call received by one of the defendants after he reported to Aiglemont that he had discovered that the Imam’s signature was being forged.
Why was it necessary to forge Imam’s signature? Who did it? How many more forgeries were done?
All these were questions in the mind of one of the defendants, that morning of 17th February 2010, when he received a threatening phone call to silence him. It was a miracle that, the same day, for the record, he decided to put that conversation in writing.
Heritage News is disclosing part of the document here as it will be one of the many documents submitted in Court as evidence that there is more to this lawsuit then meets the eyes.
Whatever the final outcome, one thing is abundantly clear - a number of the defendents' supporters believe Hazar Imam's leadership to be weak. May I point these same people to the Firmans on Tariqah matters and in particular the Firman in Tanzania in 1988. One wonders how these people can profess to follow such a "blinkered" individual. And if the signature is shown to be the Imam's then will the munirs and samirs (and dare one say kafirs?) stop hiding behind their internet IDs and renounce a faith headed by an extremely aggressive individual as the graphologist has profiled? Maybe the silver lining behind these clouds is the breakaway of the doubting Thomases, unless of course they choose to stay in as moles.
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nurdinnurdin
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:27 am
Samirnoorali
Samirnoorali, Well written post you are abolutely right there are three categories of Ismailis. I think they are all right in own interpretation of our faith, there is no such thing as any category being wrong.
Thanks, Samir I really enjoyed your post, I couldn't have put it better.
Thanks, Samir I really enjoyed your post, I couldn't have put it better.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
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First of all I strongly advise you to learn manners and ethics, bcause if you don't have it you can't be a good human being so control your anger and aggressiveness and instead of personal attacking and bashing justify your view points with logical arguments otherwise keep quiet.Jani wrote:Whatever the final outcome, one thing is abundantly clear - a number of the defendents' supporters believe Hazar Imam's leadership to be weak. May I point these same people to the Firmans on Tariqah matters and in particular the Firman in Tanzania in 1988. One wonders how these people can profess to follow such a "blinkered" individual. And if the signature is shown to be the Imam's then will the munirs and samirs (and dare one say kafirs?) stop hiding behind their internet IDs and renounce a faith headed by an extremely aggressive individual as the graphologist has profiled? Maybe the silver lining behind these clouds is the breakaway of the doubting Thomases, unless of course they choose to stay in as moles.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
With regards to change in religious practices...there are two kinds of changes. Changes made by or approved by Hazir Imam. These changes are by Imam Him self and He has complete right to do so. So all Ismailis must accept them. For example if we talk of dua, there was different dua at the time of Pir Sadardin, Pir Shams and Prophet Muhammad. The change of dua was made by Imam according to the changing circumstances and there are farmans in KIM vol 2 for stopping the recitation of old dua in jk and starting the new Arabic dua.
The changes do occur in practices but only Imam and Pir have right to do so. Other then their persmission, approval..others have no right to edit or change practices.
The changes do occur in practices but only Imam and Pir have right to do so. Other then their persmission, approval..others have no right to edit or change practices.
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
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I hope they will surrender themselves according to the wishes of Imam. This is quite obvious from the defence statement but instead of reading their comments you preferred blaming and assuming things on your own.sassy wrote:First of all Nagib, you should post the letters you have recd from aiglemont.
It seems that you are only posting your e-mails to Shafik.
Assuming you are right and; someone else had signed , BUT what happens when this backfires on you and it is MHI who has initiated this case, and he has signed these letters
WHAT do you plan to do Hide in a cave?
Ask for forgivness?
or leave the religion?
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
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Alwaez Abu Ali missionary in his many waezes has strongly criticized the leaders/murids who wish to change, edit and modify Farmans, Ginans and relgious practices. In his book Ismaili Tariqah vol 2, he has mentioned some of the changes that were made by people themselves due to ignorance and, without approval of Imam.
Now for those who are thinking I am supporting Nagib and against all leaders..its certainly wrong. Indeed leaders are the murids of Imam who are serving but they are not divine and can do error and mistakes. lets see What Hazir Imam has to say on all this. After all He better knows every thing !
Now for those who are thinking I am supporting Nagib and against all leaders..its certainly wrong. Indeed leaders are the murids of Imam who are serving but they are not divine and can do error and mistakes. lets see What Hazir Imam has to say on all this. After all He better knows every thing !
I would like to know which planet you are orbiting o­n. Having spoken to some of the people (ismailies) they feel that it was wrong of LIF to do the announcement. People are studying the language. Mowlana Hazar Imam does not use this kind of language especially o­n his own Murids. Court cases were dealt quite discreetly in the past. The defendants are not questioning the Imam. They are in doubt about the people working close to him and they are bold enough to question the leadership. These Munirs,Samirs, Nagibs and Alnaz have got the heart of a lion who do not believe in blindly following the leadership like other people. And to be honest they do not even need to give any more justification. Even the people who think- okay what about the letter sent by Hazar Imam are saying that the announcement should have been made after the court verdict. Makes me wonder did the individual in question have any guilt, insecurity or did he want any sympathy from the jamat. As for Mr Tajdin and Mr Jiwa I remember the Ginan - Koiee Kahe Chokha, Koiee Kahe Mela, Koiee Kahe Ola Keva- Re walaJani wrote:Whatever the final outcome, o­ne thing is abundantly clear - a number of the defendents' supporters believe Hazar Imam's leadership to be weak. May I point these same people to the Firmans o­n Tariqah matters and in particular the Firman in Tanzania in 1988. o­ne wonders how these people can profess to follow such a "blinkered" individual. And if the signature is shown to be the Imam's then will the munirs and samirs (and dare o­ne say kafirs?) stop hiding behind their internet IDs and renounce a faith headed by an extremely aggressive individual as the graphologist has profiled? Maybe the silver lining behind these clouds is the breakaway of the doubting Thomases, unless of course they choose to stay in as moles.
Star_Munir, which jurisprudence’s manners and ethics would you like me to learn? Since when have Ismailis been taught to label anyone who does not share your views as ill-mannered and unethical? What does pluralism mean to you? And perhaps you will also enlighten us as to which school of logic formulates arriving at conclusions based on one-side of an argument? Presumably the same school that decrees that some of the people (ismailies) equals a planet. What the defendants have provided so far are exhibits not even evidence. And regards controlling my anger and aggressiveness, does not the fact that that I have not notched up even 25 posts whilst you have nearly 1400 in about the same time say something about our respective self-control?
How many of you are privy to the workings of Aiglemont? Do you know what was discussed at the LIF meeting in London the weekend before the Jamati announcement? May be you have the minutes of the meeting stating that one individual steamrollered his views? I think Sassy asked Nagib very pertinent questions which I believe apply equally to those who have already declared Nagib and Alnaz the winners.
How many of you are privy to the workings of Aiglemont? Do you know what was discussed at the LIF meeting in London the weekend before the Jamati announcement? May be you have the minutes of the meeting stating that one individual steamrollered his views? I think Sassy asked Nagib very pertinent questions which I believe apply equally to those who have already declared Nagib and Alnaz the winners.
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star_munir
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By ethics and manner, I meant politness instead of agressiveness, frustration and personal comments.Jani wrote:Star_Munir, which jurisprudence’s manners and ethics would you like me to learn? Since when have Ismailis been taught to label anyone who does not share your views as ill-mannered and unethical? What does pluralism mean to you? And perhaps you will also enlighten us as to which school of logic formulates arriving at conclusions based on one-side of an argument? Presumably the same school that decrees that some of the people (ismailies) equals a planet. What the defendants have provided so far are exhibits not even evidence. And regards controlling my anger and aggressiveness, does not the fact that that I have not notched up even 25 posts whilst you have nearly 1400 in about the same time say something about our respective self-control?
How many of you are privy to the workings of Aiglemont? Do you know what was discussed at the LIF meeting in London the weekend before the Jamati announcement? May be you have the minutes of the meeting stating that one individual steamrollered his views? I think Sassy asked Nagib very pertinent questions which I believe apply equally to those who have already declared Nagib and Alnaz the winners.
If you would had read all my posts, then you probably would not have written it. Read carefully, I have mentioned not to be judgemental and to wait and see "What Hazir Imam has to say on all this, because He better knows whether the letters were actually sent by Him or not"
This is what I think I had posted twice over here. So my advise and suggestion to you also is not to be judgemental, have patience and see what Hazir Imam has to say on this issue.
The problem with most of the people is they soon start becoming judgemental though they are not at all aware of any facts. When this issue was started, I had never posted any comment on initial days because I did not know much about it. With efforts of Admin, people over here got to know the perspective of the defendants. These clarified that defendants are not against Imam and are ready to surrender according to the wishes of Imam.
Now we had disscussed about those articles and the issues that might be related with that articles. But I had not become judgemental. I had written earlier also that we have Hazir Imam who is present, alive and has authority. Wait to see what He says, what court says...
I do agree with this view of defendant that Farmans should not be edited or altered by any person. Imam has right to bring change in Tariqah practice but not other people. This is some thing, to which I think all ismailis will agree. Now where is the point to become angry and aggressive.
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nurdinnurdin
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Star-Munir
Star-Munir you seem to be very selectives in what you say "If you would had read all my posts, then you probably would not have written it. Read carefully, I have mentioned not to be judgemental "
I recall in response to my post of 23rd April your comments were
"nurudin from your post its quite clear that you are non ismaili and if you are, then there is no need to pretend to be Ismaili "
Now who is being judgemental? so much for pluralism.
I recall in response to my post of 23rd April your comments were
"nurudin from your post its quite clear that you are non ismaili and if you are, then there is no need to pretend to be Ismaili "
Now who is being judgemental? so much for pluralism.
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star_munir
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Re: Star-Munir
This comment was due to what you had posted. Just to remind you of your own words "SMS did claim he was god but to my knowledge the present Imam has never said that he is God. In the past SMS got away with outlandish proclaimations about the Imam, the Jamat was not so educated at that time and accepted what ever was told by the Imam, in the present age our community is well educated and I think the new generation will not except incredulous things about the Imam, maybe this is the reason why SMS firmans are not read in khanna.<BR><BR>MHI is just like another human being"nurdinnurdin wrote:Star-Munir you seem to be very selectives in what you say "If you would had read all my posts, then you probably would not have written it. Read carefully, I have mentioned not to be judgemental "
I recall in response to my post of 23rd April your comments were
"nurudin from your post its quite clear that you are non ismaili and if you are, then there is no need to pretend to be Ismaili "
Now who is being judgemental? so much for pluralism.
Now if you believe what Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah did was wrong. According to you instead of guiding jamat, he misguided them then what else one could think about you....you see your comments are quite abusive and I can't imagine any ismaili could even think so because an ismaili who goeas jamat khana, who performs ceremonies like channta, taking jura, asking forgiveness, praying after tasbih of Ya Ali Ya Muhammad etc knows that imam is not an ordinary religious leader. Thats reason I had written this to you.
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star_munir
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Leadership
As far as leadership goes there has been atleast one incident in history when a leader declared the wrong son to be the next Imam.
So,
Leadership is capable of things much worse than what we have experienced.
Why would the Imam make Farmans about him being the sole authority to make changes in the practice of our faith?
To me the reason could be because there are people who are trying to mislead the jamat and are trying to make changes in the way we practice our faith.
Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly mentioned "tamaro deen" and "amaro deen" in his Farmans.
I think our current Imam has also differentiated by saying "Your Faith" and "Our Faith" in different places.
I have not heard or read any Baitul Khayal Farman where he has used the word "Your Faith" It is always "Our Faith" in BUK when he gives Bol.
If I were trying to mislead the jamat the first thing I would do is prevent access to the Farmans of Imam. The Farmans where Imam mentions about he is not sure if the leaders are telling the jamat what he has said.
There is evidence in the Farmans of leaders not delivering Farmans (what he has said) accurately or not delivering them at all.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Imam may want to weed out some of the Jamat.
So many of the new generation of Ismailies are getting marginalized that I fear they may become mainstream in a generation or two.
What I will say now may be considered rants of a lunatic or call it unbhai vani.
There has been a prediction I believe in our scriptures of there being a split in the Jamat during the time of the 50th Imam (It may have been 49th or 51st Imam, I do not recall exactly). It is supposed to be when the Pir and Imam joma are separate. One side will get enamoured by the Pir and start worshiping him while discounting The Imam.
The other faction will have their priorities focussed on the Imam-e-zaman.
I believe this strongly enough to make my son aware of this possibility and reminding him periodically.
Thats all for now.
So,
Leadership is capable of things much worse than what we have experienced.
Why would the Imam make Farmans about him being the sole authority to make changes in the practice of our faith?
To me the reason could be because there are people who are trying to mislead the jamat and are trying to make changes in the way we practice our faith.
Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly mentioned "tamaro deen" and "amaro deen" in his Farmans.
I think our current Imam has also differentiated by saying "Your Faith" and "Our Faith" in different places.
I have not heard or read any Baitul Khayal Farman where he has used the word "Your Faith" It is always "Our Faith" in BUK when he gives Bol.
If I were trying to mislead the jamat the first thing I would do is prevent access to the Farmans of Imam. The Farmans where Imam mentions about he is not sure if the leaders are telling the jamat what he has said.
There is evidence in the Farmans of leaders not delivering Farmans (what he has said) accurately or not delivering them at all.
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Imam may want to weed out some of the Jamat.
So many of the new generation of Ismailies are getting marginalized that I fear they may become mainstream in a generation or two.
What I will say now may be considered rants of a lunatic or call it unbhai vani.
There has been a prediction I believe in our scriptures of there being a split in the Jamat during the time of the 50th Imam (It may have been 49th or 51st Imam, I do not recall exactly). It is supposed to be when the Pir and Imam joma are separate. One side will get enamoured by the Pir and start worshiping him while discounting The Imam.
The other faction will have their priorities focussed on the Imam-e-zaman.
I believe this strongly enough to make my son aware of this possibility and reminding him periodically.
Thats all for now.
New article in Law Times
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29827
The Law Times printed a new article with statements from both sides. The Lawyer at Ogilvie Renault admits to dealing with Sachedina, the defense reiterates their cooperation and submission to the wishes of the Imam, and an intellectual property lawyer expands on the difficulties of applying copyright law to such a case.
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29827
The Law Times printed a new article with statements from both sides. The Lawyer at Ogilvie Renault admits to dealing with Sachedina, the defense reiterates their cooperation and submission to the wishes of the Imam, and an intellectual property lawyer expands on the difficulties of applying copyright law to such a case.
Kalam-e-imame zaman
Well if we see around us, in Material sense why did these huge Banking Institutions collapse. Because the executives at top level were taking high risk decisions and they were not being questioned by any financial authority or the government or the Board of Directors. Had it been that if someone would have questioned their decisions these institutions wouldn't have collapsed.
I am taking this case in the same way. Editing, Deleting and not distributing Farmans is a high risk decision. And of course the people who are saying that it is Imams wish to do so have to be questioned. The foundation of our faith is Farman. We say dua because there is a Farman to do so, we give dasond because there is a farman to do so, Everything is done in this Tariqah because there is a Farman to do it. Now there is no Farman which says that it is okay to edit, delete Farmans. So I think that the defendants are absolutely right in questioning the individual who is working with Hazar Imam whether it is Hazar Imams wish to do so. They have to be 100% sure about it or else just like the banking istitutions the faith will have affects of these decisions.
I am taking this case in the same way. Editing, Deleting and not distributing Farmans is a high risk decision. And of course the people who are saying that it is Imams wish to do so have to be questioned. The foundation of our faith is Farman. We say dua because there is a Farman to do so, we give dasond because there is a farman to do so, Everything is done in this Tariqah because there is a Farman to do it. Now there is no Farman which says that it is okay to edit, delete Farmans. So I think that the defendants are absolutely right in questioning the individual who is working with Hazar Imam whether it is Hazar Imams wish to do so. They have to be 100% sure about it or else just like the banking istitutions the faith will have affects of these decisions.
Admin,
You invite us to have a healthy discussion but, as is your prerogative, you delete any posts that offer a contrary view. I had posted a more balanced version of the Law times report as well as a post about how MHI is expected to make firmans globally available if we do not use his appointed channels. It is of course public knowledge that this site is run by one if not both the defendants, so you are free to paint whatever picture you want but is it not common courtesy, leave aside Ismaili ethics, to at least acknowledge that a contrary view exists. You have often deleted posts from ex-Imailis where they have used improper language or abused our Imam and we commend you for that but in those cases you have marked the post deleted. Why have Hakuna's and my posts disappeared without any indication of censorship? Is it because you inferred from my comments about the second letter that I may have "links" with Aiglemont? I trust you will do the honourable thing and leave this post uncensored and I will not repeat my earlier posts - let the unbiased and open-minded members draw their own conclusions.
As you may well be aware posts from this site often appear on the Dawoodi Bohra reform site; a poster called Muslim First posts a copy there to ridicule us. He usually gets it there before you get a chance to censor any posts. Also because of time differences, quite a few people will have read Hakuna and my posts before you wielded the axe; I am sure they will have made up their minds about the defense case.
Thank you
You invite us to have a healthy discussion but, as is your prerogative, you delete any posts that offer a contrary view. I had posted a more balanced version of the Law times report as well as a post about how MHI is expected to make firmans globally available if we do not use his appointed channels. It is of course public knowledge that this site is run by one if not both the defendants, so you are free to paint whatever picture you want but is it not common courtesy, leave aside Ismaili ethics, to at least acknowledge that a contrary view exists. You have often deleted posts from ex-Imailis where they have used improper language or abused our Imam and we commend you for that but in those cases you have marked the post deleted. Why have Hakuna's and my posts disappeared without any indication of censorship? Is it because you inferred from my comments about the second letter that I may have "links" with Aiglemont? I trust you will do the honourable thing and leave this post uncensored and I will not repeat my earlier posts - let the unbiased and open-minded members draw their own conclusions.
As you may well be aware posts from this site often appear on the Dawoodi Bohra reform site; a poster called Muslim First posts a copy there to ridicule us. He usually gets it there before you get a chance to censor any posts. Also because of time differences, quite a few people will have read Hakuna and my posts before you wielded the axe; I am sure they will have made up their minds about the defense case.
Thank you
Brian Gray, a senior partner at Ogilvy Renault LLP and counsel for the Aga Khan, declined to comment on the merits of the defence but did confirm his client authorized the action. Nevertheless, he says he has also dealt with Sachedina on the matter.
“We are thinking about how we can convince the defendants that it really is the Aga Khan that’s bringing this action,” Gray tells Law Times.
“We are thinking about how we can convince the defendants that it really is the Aga Khan that’s bringing this action,” Gray tells Law Times.
When I read about this book here, my first reaction was like…who is publishing and distributing this book? Is it from any Jamati institution or the national council and if so, which is that? Because, I personally think that the idea of gathering pretty much all of the Hazar Imam’s Farmans, Taliqas and other guidance in one huge book is not such a wise idea on multiple levels such as sensitivity of the content, Authenticity, and other technical infeasibilities.
However, I do realize that Hazar Imam’s latest Farmans may have been inaccessible to some degree for a lot of people due to whatever reasons…but, I don’t think that coming up with such a book is the right solution, especially by someone other than an authorized institution or entity.
I suppose, there has been some lack of transparency between Jamat(s) and respective leadership to tackle such issues in much more diplomatic and a sincere way.
However, I do realize that Hazar Imam’s latest Farmans may have been inaccessible to some degree for a lot of people due to whatever reasons…but, I don’t think that coming up with such a book is the right solution, especially by someone other than an authorized institution or entity.
I suppose, there has been some lack of transparency between Jamat(s) and respective leadership to tackle such issues in much more diplomatic and a sincere way.
Posted in Comments section
The following comment seems relevant to this thread
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http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740#comment-5395
Who initiated the action??
On May 13th, 2010 Believer (not verified) says:
- If the Imam initiated the action, then He at the same time refused to meet the defendants and spent the time to initiate the action. He permits that the Imam be publicly seen fighting against a murid who pledges allegiance to Him. He from the start of the action let a lot of rumours be spread and let the Jamat be divided on the matter.. And being the Lord of the Time, he asks for more time from the court???... The more I think about it, the more preposterous this view sounds.
- If some well-intentioned but short-sighted leaders made the mistake of forgery and started the action, then it would make sense that no contact has been allowed between the defendants and the Imam. It would make sense that these leaders would try to garner as much negative publicity, rumours, emotional appeals and pressure against the defendants for the defendants to make some 'confession' under pressure so the case can be closed without actually involving the Imam. It would also make sense that they asked for a delay since they could not get any affidavit from the Imam, and cannot allow a meeting with the Imam whom they have bypassed. It would also make sense that the Ogilvie Lawyers seem so worried as to how to convince the defendants without flying the Aga Khan to Toronto, it would make sense that the lawyers seem so misinformed, not knowing that the Imam is coming to Toronto soon, not knowing that the Imam was not in Paris but in Boston, not knowing that the defendants would be willing to fly anywhere anytime at their own expense to meet the Imam.
- If any part of what the defendants say is true, then the defendants have no choice but to show all their cards and wait for further guidance from the Imam himself while they try to minimize the impact of the rumours on the well-being of their family.[/b]
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http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740#comment-5395
Who initiated the action??
On May 13th, 2010 Believer (not verified) says:
- If the Imam initiated the action, then He at the same time refused to meet the defendants and spent the time to initiate the action. He permits that the Imam be publicly seen fighting against a murid who pledges allegiance to Him. He from the start of the action let a lot of rumours be spread and let the Jamat be divided on the matter.. And being the Lord of the Time, he asks for more time from the court???... The more I think about it, the more preposterous this view sounds.
- If some well-intentioned but short-sighted leaders made the mistake of forgery and started the action, then it would make sense that no contact has been allowed between the defendants and the Imam. It would make sense that these leaders would try to garner as much negative publicity, rumours, emotional appeals and pressure against the defendants for the defendants to make some 'confession' under pressure so the case can be closed without actually involving the Imam. It would also make sense that they asked for a delay since they could not get any affidavit from the Imam, and cannot allow a meeting with the Imam whom they have bypassed. It would also make sense that the Ogilvie Lawyers seem so worried as to how to convince the defendants without flying the Aga Khan to Toronto, it would make sense that the lawyers seem so misinformed, not knowing that the Imam is coming to Toronto soon, not knowing that the Imam was not in Paris but in Boston, not knowing that the defendants would be willing to fly anywhere anytime at their own expense to meet the Imam.
- If any part of what the defendants say is true, then the defendants have no choice but to show all their cards and wait for further guidance from the Imam himself while they try to minimize the impact of the rumours on the well-being of their family.[/b]
This is not a site where anyone can come and do his propaganda. We are not after rating and loyalties. There are websites that post only the other side of the story and nothing else goes "through their filter" as you say.
This web site is for the Imam and so are the defendant in the case. When there is no dispute, the discussion should be on fundamentals not on propaganda and on becoming mouthpiece for someone or to settle old scores.
If this is difficult to understand then there is no point in posting here that "we are all educated".
Admin
This web site is for the Imam and so are the defendant in the case. When there is no dispute, the discussion should be on fundamentals not on propaganda and on becoming mouthpiece for someone or to settle old scores.
If this is difficult to understand then there is no point in posting here that "we are all educated".
Admin
You did not totally delete my post for which I guess I ought to be grateful. You have however edited it which then makes your reference to "through their filter" and "we are all educated" slightly orphaned!
At the end of the day is not this site a platform for propaganda albeit propaganda for the Imam and Ismailis?
So what are the fundamentals of the case? A group of (self-proclaimed) devout Ismailis have published/made available Firmans and Taliqas covering a 50 year period. At the start of that period there were neither audio nor electronic aids that are now taken for granted. Firmans were taken down in shorthand by well-meaning "volunteer" ladies who had at best studied up to what was then certificate of secondary education. Who has vouchsafed the accuracy of their transcipts? So let us discuss why we should have or have not had this book. Let us not argue about the identity of the plaintiff or the merits of the case - that is for the court or legal system to decide. Why are we attacking the leadership and in particular one individual if it is not to settle old scores or vent our anger against authority in general?
At the end of the day is not this site a platform for propaganda albeit propaganda for the Imam and Ismailis?
So what are the fundamentals of the case? A group of (self-proclaimed) devout Ismailis have published/made available Firmans and Taliqas covering a 50 year period. At the start of that period there were neither audio nor electronic aids that are now taken for granted. Firmans were taken down in shorthand by well-meaning "volunteer" ladies who had at best studied up to what was then certificate of secondary education. Who has vouchsafed the accuracy of their transcipts? So let us discuss why we should have or have not had this book. Let us not argue about the identity of the plaintiff or the merits of the case - that is for the court or legal system to decide. Why are we attacking the leadership and in particular one individual if it is not to settle old scores or vent our anger against authority in general?
Kalam-E- Imame zaman
[quote="Jani"]Admin,
You have again deleted a number of posts Let there be fair play otherwise not only will you lose the case, you will also lose "loyalty" to this site[/quote]
Its unbelievable how frustrated some people feel when their post is deleted or edited. This is the exact point. Imagine the frustration of tens and thousands of Murids who are told that it is okay to delete and edit the Imams Farmans.
You have again deleted a number of posts Let there be fair play otherwise not only will you lose the case, you will also lose "loyalty" to this site[/quote]
Its unbelievable how frustrated some people feel when their post is deleted or edited. This is the exact point. Imagine the frustration of tens and thousands of Murids who are told that it is okay to delete and edit the Imams Farmans.