kalam-e-imam-e-zaman

[samirnoorali]

There was an instance of a ginan, in question, that was banned; although there was no order for complete destruction. Such a book is still used for scholarly purposes and continues to be read privately. This ginan was written by a “sayed” not a Pir and so we have to be very careful not to confuse the two. A Pir’s words can never be challenged or destroyed because they are the very words of the current Pir, namely, the Imam of the time. A sayed or dai’s words can be challenged, such as dai Nasir Kusraw, because he was an ordinary mortal just like the rest of us.

Secondly, there is no instruction, whatsoever, from the current Imam to ban Kalme Imame Mubeen. All of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans including farmans made by previous Imams are still valid to read in Jamat Khane or at home. Unfortunately, the reason for its hatred lies in the very words the Imam uses. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s love for the jamat was far more open, and his references are seen as too suggestive of divinity.

I would suggest that if individuals are bent to propagate that such a ban exists then let them first advocate a ban on the Quran, because that is far older and outdated.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

[imranramji2008]

There was an instance of a ginan, in question, that was banned; although there was no order for complete destruction. Such a book is still used for scholarly purposes and continues to be read privately. This ginan was written by a “sayed” not a Pir and so we have to be very careful not to confuse the two. A Pir’s words can never be challenged or destroyed because they are the very words of the current Pir, namely, the Imam of the time. A sayed or dai’s words can be challenged, such as dai Nasir Kusraw, because he was an ordinary mortal just like the rest of us.

Secondly, there is no instruction, whatsoever, from the current Imam to ban Kalme Imame Mubeen. All of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans including farmans made by previous Imams are still valid to read in Jamat Khane or at home. Unfortunately, the reason for its hatred lies in the very words the Imam uses. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s love for the jamat was far more open, and his references are seen as too suggestive of divinity.

I would suggest that if individuals are bent to propagate that such a ban exists then let them first advocate a ban on the Quran, because that is far older and outdated.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

first off if the said text imame mumbin the firmans of noor mowlana shah karim al hussani has not been banned why can we not access them in jamat khana? Why arent they selling it in jamat khanna? It has been discontinued because MHI doesnt want us to read them.

[sphinx]

Secondly, there is no instruction, whatsoever, from the current Imam to ban Kalme Imame Mubeen. All of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans including farmans made by previous Imams are still valid to read in Jamat Khane or at home. Unfortunately, the reason for its hatred lies in the very words the Imam uses. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s love for the jamat was far more open, and his references are seen as too suggestive of divinity.

First off, Aiglemont has instructed that SMS farman's not be read in JK. Again, for contextual reasons, not because they aren't valid - although some guidance that was presented at the time may not be relevant today (but again, we're talking context). If you hear them in JK, it's because MKs are taking the liberty to have them read. They will not be in any binder that the institutions provide. I'm sure people who are "anti-institutions" will believe that its the ITREBs taking these matter into their own hands. Case in point - these books. But, to their dismay, it is guidance from MHI.

Secondly, SMS love for the jamat was far more open? We're talking about the same noor here, how do you compare? A different style perhaps, but it doesn't make one better over the other, does it?

[shiraz.virani]

OMG !! ...still debating on this useless issue ???

The Aga Khan, spiritual leader of Ismaili Muslims, is suing a Toronto lawyer and Montreal businessman for copyright infringement.

The France-based philanthropist is seeking punitive and exemplary damages and an injunction against two of his own lay followers.

The statement of claim, filed last week in federal court, alleges the two men and other unnamed parties infringed on his copyright by selling “literary works and readings” he wrote. The document alleges the defendants engaged in commercial ventures using unauthorized reproduction of material.

The material in question consists of a collection of written messages and speeches delivered by the Aga Khan between 1957 and 2009.

The material in question consists of a collection of written messages and speeches delivered by the Aga Khan between 1957 and 2009.
“It is the mandate of the Imam to interpret to his community the faith of Islam” and “lead the effort to improve the security and quality of life of his community and the wider societies among which the Ismailis live,” the suit states. “The Aga Khan’s communications to his community are conveyed in this privileged context and, hence, he is concerned that their integrity should be safeguarded.”

The suit names Toronto lawyer Alnaz Jiwa and Montreal businessman Nagib Tajdin.


I hope @ above are not the Admin or the Moderators of this site

[sunnydays]

I think there's very little doubt about the authenticity of the lawsuit.   But at the end of the day, it's not up to us to judge.

[samirnoorali]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

The reason these farmans are not read in Jamat Khane has nothing to do with a ban. Let be very clear so that you understand fully: there is no ban in existence. The problem is which farman are you going to read? The one that talks about Ali Allah? The one that refers to Ismailis as donkies? The one that dasond is mandatory? Tell me which farman do the people want to hear? These farmans are the bedrock of the faith. The audience of that time were far more receptive than the audience of today. Despite many problems at that time, no doubt, there are far more problems that can erupt from newer generations.

Remember that in 1905 it was Bhagat Juma, a leading missionary, along with many pious Ismailis who went to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah and pushed for a removal of the word Ali Allah (Ali is Allah) from the dua and replace it with Ali un wali Allah (Ali is the friend of Allah). The response by the Imam was that the whole dua should be removed if that word is altered. That word is the foundation of the faith. Without it the whole Ismaili faith means nothing. The meaning of it is that Ali is God himself. Now, if prominent people can come and challenge the Imam face to face then who is to say that they won’t propagate a ban on Kalame Imame Mubeen?

The Ismaili community has individuals who are active against the Imam while still remaining under the guise of being Ismaili. Unfortunately, that manifests itself clearly in the leadership. Don’t ever claim that Hazer Imam doesn’t want us to read his own Grandfather’s words. If that is the case then why doesn’t he ban his forefathers, the Pirs, or his ancestor – the Prophet Mohammad himself. Ban the Quran, it is far more destructive to the faith then Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans.

How can you keep the Quran when it is a forgery itself? Can you attest that it is the work of God? How so, when the entire Muslim Ummah knows that it was compiled by Caliph Osman? What makes you think that Osman had any reason to shed a positive light on Ali, his rival? Therefore, the entire Quran should first be banned rather than Kalame Imame Mubeen.

You are saying that “Aiglemont” has instructed that Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans should not be read in Jamat Khane. First of all, try to say “Imam” instead of SMS or Sultan Mohammad Shah. It is very irritating that you are not giving him the proper respect in name. Secondly, you like to always make up false claims without any sufficient proof. What “Aiglemont” are you talking about? Why do you create these false stories?

No single statement has been made by Hazer Imam banning his own grandfather’s farmans. If you think otherwise, then provide the document or the time and dates of such as statement if you are true. Don’t create false rumours which don’t exist. Don’t quote things that don’t have any proof whatsoever. Ismailis tend to say the Imam said this, the Imam said that, without any proof whatsoever. I am not saying that you are not entitled to free speech, I am simply saying don’t create words in the mouth of the Imam which don’t exist.

You said that some guidance presented at that time may not be relevant today, in context anyways. I think such statements cannot be made, in terms of an Imam. Perhaps you could re-phrase that in the sense that some material guidance pertains to that particular time. However, part of that guidance includes spiritual guidance and so people get confused that all of his guidance is outdated. That is the perception of such a statement.

The faith during the time of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah reflects the true principle of why people became Ismaili in the first place. The principle is that Ali is Allah. That was the foundation of the faith, and because people objected to it, the very word was altered to Aliyullah. Aliyullah is not the same as Ali Allah. Both are Arabic, and the need to change it was not the Imam’s idea. It was the idea of many individuals who wanted to ensure that the Imam is not associated with divinity. Who are these people? There is no specific person you can point the finger to. It is a general consensus. Not everybody shares the same view, but quite a lot do. In other words, how many Ismailis believe that Ali is Allah? You will notice on this board alone the Ismailis are divided as to whether that statement is true. How can such a division exist when that word is the bedrock of the faith? The Ismaili faith was founded upon the concept that the Imam is divine. Without that we are no different than Sunnis or other Shias.

Never say that the Imam has given guidance that certain books are banned. Books such as Kalame Imame Mubeen, Noorem Mubeen, and the dua by Pir Sadardin are all valid books and should be read by every Ismaili. In Jamat Khane it is perfectly fine to read Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans, and it is up to the people to decipher that which is pertinent and that which is understood to be historical. But no book should be banned.

I think you did not understand the meaning of what I meant when I said Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was more open. Let me give you an example. In that Imam’s time, seeing the ‘noor’ was not a private matter. The Imam in many instances would come to his followers and demand a show of hands as to who has or has not seen the noor of God. That cannot work today, not because of the Imam, but because of the people. If the Imam was to come into a public setting and demand how many people have seen the noor by a show of hands, and then criticize those who have failed then this generation would cause mass pandemonium. This is the generation that would take the Imam to court, if need be, and nakedly expose the faith as being too demanding. At that time, people understood the Imam as God. Therefore, if he demanded something and you did not fulfill it then it was your fault.

When Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah would say that Ismailis are donkies, the people of that time agreed. How many people of this generation would agree to be compared to donkies? This is a whole new ball game. This generation does not have the foundation of Ali Allah, and so there is a distance between the faith of the past and the faith of the present.

One can say that the faith has not changed in essence, but we are not talking about essence. We are talking about facts on paper, facts of worship. The fact is that Ali Allah is not accepted by every Ismaili and yet we are all supposed to be united in that concept. What happens then? Generations continue to drift away from the original principle of the faith. This is exactly what happened with the pictures in Jamat Khane.

There is a barrage of people who say that the Imam has given guidance that his own pictures be removed from the front portion of the Jamat Khane and are only to be placed on the sides. There is no such guidance at all from the Imam of the time.

The pictures were removed by the consensus of the people. Moreover, it was the consensus of the leadership. Having the pictures of Hazer Imam at the front of the Jamat Khane implies that when we are in prostration then it is to him. This didn’t sit well with certain individuals, and one day they were suddenly removed with the rumour that the Imam has ordered it to be that way. What order? What statement? There is no statement.

By putting the pictures only on the sides the message is that we are not bowing to the Imam, but rather the Imam and the Jamat is bowing to Allah. Notice that in every Jamat Khane, the face of the Imam is pointed in one direction. The picture in Jamat Khane has Hazer Imam facing to the left. That picture is placed on the men’s side. Now, an exact copy of that picture is put on the women’s side. Did anybody notice that the face in that picture on the women’s side is facing right? How can a copy of a picture face opposite directions? What that means is that ‘somebody’ wanted a copy of that picture, but that the face, regardless of being on the men’s side or women’s side should both be facing in the direction that the jamat is offering prostration. Why would the Imam agree to that when the bedrock of the faith is that we prostrate to him?

Now many individuals would read that and say, isn’t the Imam aware of that? My response is that can the Imam do anything about it? Do something and then what? If many of his own followers don’t consider him divine, then what is he supposed to do, cause a civil war? It is better for the Jamat and its leadership to resolve their issues on their own.

Even though Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s noor is the same as Hazer Imam, the people of that time versus now are completely different. One should give thanks to Kalame Imame Mubeen, because those farmans took Ismailis from poverty to wealth and fame. Today, the world still remembers how Aga Khan III took his followers from nothing to becoming successful in business and the professions. Many Ismailis at that time did not even exercise properly, and he would advice them to do so. Many Ismailis didn’t wear aprons when they cooked, and thus would appear very messy in their attire. It was the Imam who suggested that they wear aprons while cooking. Many farmans are about health, about how to treat the eyes, how to avoid certain foods, how to avoid become fat, how to avoid diseases. These may seem like little things by today’s standard, but you are taking for granted that which was not known at the time.

He was like a mother slowly teaching his children the difference between right and wrong. Now we say that his farmans are not relevant. The word relevant should never come up with regards to farmans.

[shiraz.virani]

brother samir,

now i will give you few examples , which are facts ..ok ?

a kamadiya was appointed by allah[imam] few years ago .....after one year this so called kamadiya was found cheating on kamyani.....didnt allah knew that this kamadiya will cause shame and disrespect to his office ??

a mukhi was appointed before this kamadiya again by allah[imam]...as his post was about to end he took XXX lakhs from the jamat [ people ] and ran away....he is now living in USA

a president of regional council is again appointed by this allah .....before his appointment this president was a middle class....soon after the completion of 3 years he is a multi millionare....in just 3 years , i wonder how can a man making 30,000 to 85,000 rupees[without deducting expenses] per month can have properties worth crores in a span of 3 years....

do you know h.noah [as] ??? god warned him about the flood and he inturn warned his followers....those who followed him were saved and those who did not were perished...right ???

we had a tsunami in south asia .....a huuuuuuuuuge earth quake in northern pakistan.....what did allah do ?? Did he warned you about what is coming ???

now lets turn this so called allah into imam[regular human] and see what did he do....

our imam was the 1st person to send his own private helicopters to rescue during the time of earthquake

our imam was super fast to send relief during the time of tsunami through his organisation FOCUS

i can go on and on.......brother iam not saying that you shouldnt believe that ali=allah...its ur choice, but YES we are changed when we see that our imam is just an ordinary human with no super powers like superman, batman, but .............WITH SUPER POWERFUL ORGANISATIONS like FOCUS, AKDN etc etc

hope i clarified your doubts !

[ShamsB]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

The reason these farmans are not read in Jamat Khane has nothing to do with a ban. Let be very clear so that you understand fully: there is no ban in existence. The problem is which farman are you going to read? The one that talks about Ali Allah? The one that refers to Ismailis as donkies? The one that dasond is mandatory? Tell me which farman do the people want to hear? These farmans are the bedrock of the faith. The audience of that time were far more receptive than the audience of today. Despite many problems at that time, no doubt, there are far more problems that can erupt from newer generations.

Remember that in 1905 it was Bhagat Juma, a leading missionary, along with many pious Ismailis who went to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah and pushed for a removal of the word Ali Allah (Ali is Allah) from the dua and replace it with Ali un wali Allah (Ali is the friend of Allah). The response by the Imam was that the whole dua should be removed if that word is altered. That word is the foundation of the faith. Without it the whole Ismaili faith means nothing. The meaning of it is that Ali is God himself. Now, if prominent people can come and challenge the Imam face to face then who is to say that they won’t propagate a ban on Kalame Imame Mubeen?

The Ismaili community has individuals who are active against the Imam while still remaining under the guise of being Ismaili. Unfortunately, that manifests itself clearly in the leadership. Don’t ever claim that Hazer Imam doesn’t want us to read his own Grandfather’s words. If that is the case then why doesn’t he ban his forefathers, the Pirs, or his ancestor – the Prophet Mohammad himself. Ban the Quran, it is far more destructive to the faith then Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans.

How can you keep the Quran when it is a forgery itself? Can you attest that it is the work of God? How so, when the entire Muslim Ummah knows that it was compiled by Caliph Osman? What makes you think that Osman had any reason to shed a positive light on Ali, his rival? Therefore, the entire Quran should first be banned rather than Kalame Imame Mubeen.

You are saying that “Aiglemont” has instructed that Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans should not be read in Jamat Khane. First of all, try to say “Imam” instead of SMS or Sultan Mohammad Shah. It is very irritating that you are not giving him the proper respect in name. Secondly, you like to always make up false claims without any sufficient proof. What “Aiglemont” are you talking about? Why do you create these false stories?

No single statement has been made by Hazer Imam banning his own grandfather’s farmans. If you think otherwise, then provide the document or the time and dates of such as statement if you are true. Don’t create false rumours which don’t exist. Don’t quote things that don’t have any proof whatsoever. Ismailis tend to say the Imam said this, the Imam said that, without any proof whatsoever. I am not saying that you are not entitled to free speech, I am simply saying don’t create words in the mouth of the Imam which don’t exist.

You said that some guidance presented at that time may not be relevant today, in context anyways. I think such statements cannot be made, in terms of an Imam. Perhaps you could re-phrase that in the sense that some material guidance pertains to that particular time. However, part of that guidance includes spiritual guidance and so people get confused that all of his guidance is outdated. That is the perception of such a statement.

The faith during the time of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah reflects the true principle of why people became Ismaili in the first place. The principle is that Ali is Allah. That was the foundation of the faith, and because people objected to it, the very word was altered to Aliyullah. Aliyullah is not the same as Ali Allah. Both are Arabic, and the need to change it was not the Imam’s idea. It was the idea of many individuals who wanted to ensure that the Imam is not associated with divinity. Who are these people? There is no specific person you can point the finger to. It is a general consensus. Not everybody shares the same view, but quite a lot do. In other words, how many Ismailis believe that Ali is Allah? You will notice on this board alone the Ismailis are divided as to whether that statement is true. How can such a division exist when that word is the bedrock of the faith? The Ismaili faith was founded upon the concept that the Imam is divine. Without that we are no different than Sunnis or other Shias.

Never say that the Imam has given guidance that certain books are banned. Books such as Kalame Imame Mubeen, Noorem Mubeen, and the dua by Pir Sadardin are all valid books and should be read by every Ismaili. In Jamat Khane it is perfectly fine to read Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans, and it is up to the people to decipher that which is pertinent and that which is understood to be historical. But no book should be banned.

I think you did not understand the meaning of what I meant when I said Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was more open. Let me give you an example. In that Imam’s time, seeing the ‘noor’ was not a private matter. The Imam in many instances would come to his followers and demand a show of hands as to who has or has not seen the noor of God. That cannot work today, not because of the Imam, but because of the people. If the Imam was to come into a public setting and demand how many people have seen the noor by a show of hands, and then criticize those who have failed then this generation would cause mass pandemonium. This is the generation that would take the Imam to court, if need be, and nakedly expose the faith as being too demanding. At that time, people understood the Imam as God. Therefore, if he demanded something and you did not fulfill it then it was your fault.

When Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah would say that Ismailis are donkies, the people of that time agreed. How many people of this generation would agree to be compared to donkies? This is a whole new ball game. This generation does not have the foundation of Ali Allah, and so there is a distance between the faith of the past and the faith of the present.

One can say that the faith has not changed in essence, but we are not talking about essence. We are talking about facts on paper, facts of worship. The fact is that Ali Allah is not accepted by every Ismaili and yet we are all supposed to be united in that concept. What happens then? Generations continue to drift away from the original principle of the faith. This is exactly what happened with the pictures in Jamat Khane.

There is a barrage of people who say that the Imam has given guidance that his own pictures be removed from the front portion of the Jamat Khane and are only to be placed on the sides. There is no such guidance at all from the Imam of the time.

The pictures were removed by the consensus of the people. Moreover, it was the consensus of the leadership. Having the pictures of Hazer Imam at the front of the Jamat Khane implies that when we are in prostration then it is to him. This didn’t sit well with certain individuals, and one day they were suddenly removed with the rumour that the Imam has ordered it to be that way. What order? What statement? There is no statement.

By putting the pictures only on the sides the message is that we are not bowing to the Imam, but rather the Imam and the Jamat is bowing to Allah. Notice that in every Jamat Khane, the face of the Imam is pointed in one direction. The picture in Jamat Khane has Hazer Imam facing to the left. That picture is placed on the men’s side. Now, an exact copy of that picture is put on the women’s side. Did anybody notice that the face in that picture on the women’s side is facing right? How can a copy of a picture face opposite directions? What that means is that ‘somebody’ wanted a copy of that picture, but that the face, regardless of being on the men’s side or women’s side should both be facing in the direction that the jamat is offering prostration. Why would the Imam agree to that when the bedrock of the faith is that we prostrate to him?

Now many individuals would read that and say, isn’t the Imam aware of that? My response is that can the Imam do anything about it? Do something and then what? If many of his own followers don’t consider him divine, then what is he supposed to do, cause a civil war? It is better for the Jamat and its leadership to resolve their issues on their own.

Even though Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s noor is the same as Hazer Imam, the people of that time versus now are completely different. One should give thanks to Kalame Imame Mubeen, because those farmans took Ismailis from poverty to wealth and fame. Today, the world still remembers how Aga Khan III took his followers from nothing to becoming successful in business and the professions. Many Ismailis at that time did not even exercise properly, and he would advice them to do so. Many Ismailis didn’t wear aprons when they cooked, and thus would appear very messy in their attire. It was the Imam who suggested that they wear aprons while cooking. Many farmans are about health, about how to treat the eyes, how to avoid certain foods, how to avoid become fat, how to avoid diseases. These may seem like little things by today’s standard, but you are taking for granted that which was not known at the time.

He was like a mother slowly teaching his children the difference between right and wrong. Now we say that his farmans are not relevant. The word relevant should never come up with regards to farmans.

Thanks Samir - Very well said and very well put - but I think this is falling on deaf ears in the case of someone like Imran whose intent is that of gathering a lynch mob against someone that are his spiritual brethren - and in order to justify his stance - is refusing to see reason.

The action has already taken place - no instead of bemoaning the action - let's look at how we can work to remedy and rectify and bring the community together and be united.

Shams

[sunnydays]

Samir, times and contexts are changing. that is the reality of things. The relationship of Ali and Allah is a purely esoteric one. It is one that is discovered with inner search.

Otherwise, if you take on face value as you suggest - you run the risk of sounding as though Ali is the human incarnation of Allah. And as Imam SMS said it himself in his memoirs (religion of my ancestors)

"Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh"


I also don't think that imran is trying to start a lynch mob against these individuals. He sounds like someone who is just shocked, as many of us were/are, when we heard the news.

I also agree with Shams - what is done is done. Its not for us to judge. Let's just hope that this issue can be resolved properly.

[imranramji2008]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

The reason these farmans are not read in Jamat Khane has nothing to do with a ban. Let be very clear so that you understand fully: there is no ban in existence. The problem is which farman are you going to read? The one that talks about Ali Allah? The one that refers to Ismailis as donkies? The one that dasond is mandatory? Tell me which farman do the people want to hear? These farmans are the bedrock of the faith. The audience of that time were far more receptive than the audience of today. Despite many problems at that time, no doubt, there are far more problems that can erupt from newer generations.

Remember that in 1905 it was Bhagat Juma, a leading missionary, along with many pious Ismailis who went to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah and pushed for a removal of the word Ali Allah (Ali is Allah) from the dua and replace it with Ali un wali Allah (Ali is the friend of Allah). The response by the Imam was that the whole dua should be removed if that word is altered. That word is the foundation of the faith. Without it the whole Ismaili faith means nothing. The meaning of it is that Ali is God himself. Now, if prominent people can come and challenge the Imam face to face then who is to say that they won’t propagate a ban on Kalame Imame Mubeen?

The Ismaili community has individuals who are active against the Imam while still remaining under the guise of being Ismaili. Unfortunately, that manifests itself clearly in the leadership. Don’t ever claim that Hazer Imam doesn’t want us to read his own Grandfather’s words. If that is the case then why doesn’t he ban his forefathers, the Pirs, or his ancestor – the Prophet Mohammad himself. Ban the Quran, it is far more destructive to the faith then Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans.

How can you keep the Quran when it is a forgery itself? Can you attest that it is the work of God? How so, when the entire Muslim Ummah knows that it was compiled by Caliph Osman? What makes you think that Osman had any reason to shed a positive light on Ali, his rival? Therefore, the entire Quran should first be banned rather than Kalame Imame Mubeen.

You are saying that “Aiglemont” has instructed that Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans should not be read in Jamat Khane. First of all, try to say “Imam” instead of SMS or Sultan Mohammad Shah. It is very irritating that you are not giving him the proper respect in name. Secondly, you like to always make up false claims without any sufficient proof. What “Aiglemont” are you talking about? Why do you create these false stories?

No single statement has been made by Hazer Imam banning his own grandfather’s farmans. If you think otherwise, then provide the document or the time and dates of such as statement if you are true. Don’t create false rumours which don’t exist. Don’t quote things that don’t have any proof whatsoever. Ismailis tend to say the Imam said this, the Imam said that, without any proof whatsoever. I am not saying that you are not entitled to free speech, I am simply saying don’t create words in the mouth of the Imam which don’t exist.

You said that some guidance presented at that time may not be relevant today, in context anyways. I think such statements cannot be made, in terms of an Imam. Perhaps you could re-phrase that in the sense that some material guidance pertains to that particular time. However, part of that guidance includes spiritual guidance and so people get confused that all of his guidance is outdated. That is the perception of such a statement.

The faith during the time of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah reflects the true principle of why people became Ismaili in the first place. The principle is that Ali is Allah. That was the foundation of the faith, and because people objected to it, the very word was altered to Aliyullah. Aliyullah is not the same as Ali Allah. Both are Arabic, and the need to change it was not the Imam’s idea. It was the idea of many individuals who wanted to ensure that the Imam is not associated with divinity. Who are these people? There is no specific person you can point the finger to. It is a general consensus. Not everybody shares the same view, but quite a lot do. In other words, how many Ismailis believe that Ali is Allah? You will notice on this board alone the Ismailis are divided as to whether that statement is true. How can such a division exist when that word is the bedrock of the faith? The Ismaili faith was founded upon the concept that the Imam is divine. Without that we are no different than Sunnis or other Shias.

Never say that the Imam has given guidance that certain books are banned. Books such as Kalame Imame Mubeen, Noorem Mubeen, and the dua by Pir Sadardin are all valid books and should be read by every Ismaili. In Jamat Khane it is perfectly fine to read Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans, and it is up to the people to decipher that which is pertinent and that which is understood to be historical. But no book should be banned.

I think you did not understand the meaning of what I meant when I said Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was more open. Let me give you an example. In that Imam’s time, seeing the ‘noor’ was not a private matter. The Imam in many instances would come to his followers and demand a show of hands as to who has or has not seen the noor of God. That cannot work today, not because of the Imam, but because of the people. If the Imam was to come into a public setting and demand how many people have seen the noor by a show of hands, and then criticize those who have failed then this generation would cause mass pandemonium. This is the generation that would take the Imam to court, if need be, and nakedly expose the faith as being too demanding. At that time, people understood the Imam as God. Therefore, if he demanded something and you did not fulfill it then it was your fault.

When Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah would say that Ismailis are donkies, the people of that time agreed. How many people of this generation would agree to be compared to donkies? This is a whole new ball game. This generation does not have the foundation of Ali Allah, and so there is a distance between the faith of the past and the faith of the present.

One can say that the faith has not changed in essence, but we are not talking about essence. We are talking about facts on paper, facts of worship. The fact is that Ali Allah is not accepted by every Ismaili and yet we are all supposed to be united in that concept. What happens then? Generations continue to drift away from the original principle of the faith. This is exactly what happened with the pictures in Jamat Khane.

There is a barrage of people who say that the Imam has given guidance that his own pictures be removed from the front portion of the Jamat Khane and are only to be placed on the sides. There is no such guidance at all from the Imam of the time.

The pictures were removed by the consensus of the people. Moreover, it was the consensus of the leadership. Having the pictures of Hazer Imam at the front of the Jamat Khane implies that when we are in prostration then it is to him. This didn’t sit well with certain individuals, and one day they were suddenly removed with the rumour that the Imam has ordered it to be that way. What order? What statement? There is no statement.

By putting the pictures only on the sides the message is that we are not bowing to the Imam, but rather the Imam and the Jamat is bowing to Allah. Notice that in every Jamat Khane, the face of the Imam is pointed in one direction. The picture in Jamat Khane has Hazer Imam facing to the left. That picture is placed on the men’s side. Now, an exact copy of that picture is put on the women’s side. Did anybody notice that the face in that picture on the women’s side is facing right? How can a copy of a picture face opposite directions? What that means is that ‘somebody’ wanted a copy of that picture, but that the face, regardless of being on the men’s side or women’s side should both be facing in the direction that the jamat is offering prostration. Why would the Imam agree to that when the bedrock of the faith is that we prostrate to him?

Now many individuals would read that and say, isn’t the Imam aware of that? My response is that can the Imam do anything about it? Do something and then what? If many of his own followers don’t consider him divine, then what is he supposed to do, cause a civil war? It is better for the Jamat and its leadership to resolve their issues on their own.

Even though Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s noor is the same as Hazer Imam, the people of that time versus now are completely different. One should give thanks to Kalame Imame Mubeen, because those farmans took Ismailis from poverty to wealth and fame. Today, the world still remembers how Aga Khan III took his followers from nothing to becoming successful in business and the professions. Many Ismailis at that time did not even exercise properly, and he would advice them to do so. Many Ismailis didn’t wear aprons when they cooked, and thus would appear very messy in their attire. It was the Imam who suggested that they wear aprons while cooking. Many farmans are about health, about how to treat the eyes, how to avoid certain foods, how to avoid become fat, how to avoid diseases. These may seem like little things by today’s standard, but you are taking for granted that which was not known at the time.

He was like a mother slowly teaching his children the difference between right and wrong. Now we say that his farmans are not relevant. The word relevant should never come up with regards to farmans.

and this is why ismailis are looked upon as kaffirs, non muslims because of you all. First off i am not denying the fact about ALI IS ALLAH. Nor am I denying that their were murids who wanted to change Ali is allah to Ali is the Friend of Allah. What I am denying is what Ali Is Allah actually stands for. Remember our faith is not an exoteric faith but a faith that is esoteric. Meaning their is a deeper so apparently the word "Ali is Allah" must have a deeper meaning. Ismailis have never believed that Ali is Allah in the literal sense. What ismailis do believe is that the noor of allah is within the Imam of the Time. This does not means that ali is really allah, but means that the light of allah is within ali. Before the ismaili paparozi comes on hear and jumps on me saying how wrong i am let me remind you about a hadith of prophet mohummad. "Mine and Ali's light is the same". If this hadith is true and ismailis believe that it is true. Then does this means that ismailis believe that their are two allahs. One being the prophet and one being Imam Ali. Astargerfullah. No it doesnt what ismailis believe from what i have studied is simply that the noor of allah resides in the prophet and Imam Ali and the present Imam. The murids at this generation dont seem to grasp this concept so Ali is allah had to be changed to Ali is the friend of allah, The concept is the same the meaning is the same but the wording has changed. This is what is being taught in the New REC curriculum that hazar Imam has himself made. If you feel like challanging the imam on this go right ahead i am not going to stop you,

[kmaherali]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

MHI in one of his Farmans said: "I want you to remember the Farmans of my late grandfather and my own."(Dar-es-Salaam, Dec 7, 1961).

I have not heard any Farman that over-rides it, therefore this Farman is vaild. The reason that the Farmans of KIM are not recited in JKs in the West is that the preference is for Farmans made in English or recent Farmans. Some important Farmans such as Usul-e-Din that are translated into English are read out occasionally.

I am not sure whether this is true for the India/Pakistan Jamats where Farmans are read out in Gujerati and Urdu.

[imranramji2008]

Thanks Samir - Very well said and very well put - but I think this is falling on deaf ears in the case of someone like Imran whose intent is that of gathering a lynch mob against someone that are his spiritual brethren - and in order to justify his stance - is refusing to see reason.

The action has already taken place - no instead of bemoaning the action - let's look at how we can work to remedy and rectify and bring the community together and be united.

Shams

Oh wow i am creating a lynch mob against a spirtual brethren. Lol are you serious Shams. That is not my intent. My intent is to make these people realize the seriousness of this matter. If i did not consider them my spiritual brother then i wouldnt of said anything and let them go on sinning. I correct mukhis, and khamadias and a whole lot of people out their that do wrong.

You said "instead of bemoaning the action lets look at how we can work and rectify and bring the community together and be united". Wear have i been bemoaning the action. I am not bemoaning the action. I am asking that these people follow MHI wishes. How can we be unified when we know their are people out their that are going against MHI's wishes? Shouldnt we show these people the right way? Isnt it a job of every murid to help his fellow brother on the siratul mustaqim d?

[ShamsB]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

The reason these farmans are not read in Jamat Khane has nothing to do with a ban. Let be very clear so that you understand fully: there is no ban in existence. The problem is which farman are you going to read? The one that talks about Ali Allah? The one that refers to Ismailis as donkies? The one that dasond is mandatory? Tell me which farman do the people want to hear? These farmans are the bedrock of the faith. The audience of that time were far more receptive than the audience of today. Despite many problems at that time, no doubt, there are far more problems that can erupt from newer generations.

Remember that in 1905 it was Bhagat Juma, a leading missionary, along with many pious Ismailis who went to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah and pushed for a removal of the word Ali Allah (Ali is Allah) from the dua and replace it with Ali un wali Allah (Ali is the friend of Allah). The response by the Imam was that the whole dua should be removed if that word is altered. That word is the foundation of the faith. Without it the whole Ismaili faith means nothing. The meaning of it is that Ali is God himself. Now, if prominent people can come and challenge the Imam face to face then who is to say that they won’t propagate a ban on Kalame Imame Mubeen?

The Ismaili community has individuals who are active against the Imam while still remaining under the guise of being Ismaili. Unfortunately, that manifests itself clearly in the leadership. Don’t ever claim that Hazer Imam doesn’t want us to read his own Grandfather’s words. If that is the case then why doesn’t he ban his forefathers, the Pirs, or his ancestor – the Prophet Mohammad himself. Ban the Quran, it is far more destructive to the faith then Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans.

How can you keep the Quran when it is a forgery itself? Can you attest that it is the work of God? How so, when the entire Muslim Ummah knows that it was compiled by Caliph Osman? What makes you think that Osman had any reason to shed a positive light on Ali, his rival? Therefore, the entire Quran should first be banned rather than Kalame Imame Mubeen.

You are saying that “Aiglemont” has instructed that Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans should not be read in Jamat Khane. First of all, try to say “Imam” instead of SMS or Sultan Mohammad Shah. It is very irritating that you are not giving him the proper respect in name. Secondly, you like to always make up false claims without any sufficient proof. What “Aiglemont” are you talking about? Why do you create these false stories?

No single statement has been made by Hazer Imam banning his own grandfather’s farmans. If you think otherwise, then provide the document or the time and dates of such as statement if you are true. Don’t create false rumours which don’t exist. Don’t quote things that don’t have any proof whatsoever. Ismailis tend to say the Imam said this, the Imam said that, without any proof whatsoever. I am not saying that you are not entitled to free speech, I am simply saying don’t create words in the mouth of the Imam which don’t exist.

You said that some guidance presented at that time may not be relevant today, in context anyways. I think such statements cannot be made, in terms of an Imam. Perhaps you could re-phrase that in the sense that some material guidance pertains to that particular time. However, part of that guidance includes spiritual guidance and so people get confused that all of his guidance is outdated. That is the perception of such a statement.

The faith during the time of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah reflects the true principle of why people became Ismaili in the first place. The principle is that Ali is Allah. That was the foundation of the faith, and because people objected to it, the very word was altered to Aliyullah. Aliyullah is not the same as Ali Allah. Both are Arabic, and the need to change it was not the Imam’s idea. It was the idea of many individuals who wanted to ensure that the Imam is not associated with divinity. Who are these people? There is no specific person you can point the finger to. It is a general consensus. Not everybody shares the same view, but quite a lot do. In other words, how many Ismailis believe that Ali is Allah? You will notice on this board alone the Ismailis are divided as to whether that statement is true. How can such a division exist when that word is the bedrock of the faith? The Ismaili faith was founded upon the concept that the Imam is divine. Without that we are no different than Sunnis or other Shias.

Never say that the Imam has given guidance that certain books are banned. Books such as Kalame Imame Mubeen, Noorem Mubeen, and the dua by Pir Sadardin are all valid books and should be read by every Ismaili. In Jamat Khane it is perfectly fine to read Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans, and it is up to the people to decipher that which is pertinent and that which is understood to be historical. But no book should be banned.

I think you did not understand the meaning of what I meant when I said Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was more open. Let me give you an example. In that Imam’s time, seeing the ‘noor’ was not a private matter. The Imam in many instances would come to his followers and demand a show of hands as to who has or has not seen the noor of God. That cannot work today, not because of the Imam, but because of the people. If the Imam was to come into a public setting and demand how many people have seen the noor by a show of hands, and then criticize those who have failed then this generation would cause mass pandemonium. This is the generation that would take the Imam to court, if need be, and nakedly expose the faith as being too demanding. At that time, people understood the Imam as God. Therefore, if he demanded something and you did not fulfill it then it was your fault.

When Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah would say that Ismailis are donkies, the people of that time agreed. How many people of this generation would agree to be compared to donkies? This is a whole new ball game. This generation does not have the foundation of Ali Allah, and so there is a distance between the faith of the past and the faith of the present.

One can say that the faith has not changed in essence, but we are not talking about essence. We are talking about facts on paper, facts of worship. The fact is that Ali Allah is not accepted by every Ismaili and yet we are all supposed to be united in that concept. What happens then? Generations continue to drift away from the original principle of the faith. This is exactly what happened with the pictures in Jamat Khane.

There is a barrage of people who say that the Imam has given guidance that his own pictures be removed from the front portion of the Jamat Khane and are only to be placed on the sides. There is no such guidance at all from the Imam of the time.

The pictures were removed by the consensus of the people. Moreover, it was the consensus of the leadership. Having the pictures of Hazer Imam at the front of the Jamat Khane implies that when we are in prostration then it is to him. This didn’t sit well with certain individuals, and one day they were suddenly removed with the rumour that the Imam has ordered it to be that way. What order? What statement? There is no statement.

By putting the pictures only on the sides the message is that we are not bowing to the Imam, but rather the Imam and the Jamat is bowing to Allah. Notice that in every Jamat Khane, the face of the Imam is pointed in one direction. The picture in Jamat Khane has Hazer Imam facing to the left. That picture is placed on the men’s side. Now, an exact copy of that picture is put on the women’s side. Did anybody notice that the face in that picture on the women’s side is facing right? How can a copy of a picture face opposite directions? What that means is that ‘somebody’ wanted a copy of that picture, but that the face, regardless of being on the men’s side or women’s side should both be facing in the direction that the jamat is offering prostration. Why would the Imam agree to that when the bedrock of the faith is that we prostrate to him?

Now many individuals would read that and say, isn’t the Imam aware of that? My response is that can the Imam do anything about it? Do something and then what? If many of his own followers don’t consider him divine, then what is he supposed to do, cause a civil war? It is better for the Jamat and its leadership to resolve their issues on their own.

Even though Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s noor is the same as Hazer Imam, the people of that time versus now are completely different. One should give thanks to Kalame Imame Mubeen, because those farmans took Ismailis from poverty to wealth and fame. Today, the world still remembers how Aga Khan III took his followers from nothing to becoming successful in business and the professions. Many Ismailis at that time did not even exercise properly, and he would advice them to do so. Many Ismailis didn’t wear aprons when they cooked, and thus would appear very messy in their attire. It was the Imam who suggested that they wear aprons while cooking. Many farmans are about health, about how to treat the eyes, how to avoid certain foods, how to avoid become fat, how to avoid diseases. These may seem like little things by today’s standard, but you are taking for granted that which was not known at the time.

He was like a mother slowly teaching his children the difference between right and wrong. Now we say that his farmans are not relevant. The word relevant should never come up with regards to farmans.

and this is why ismailis are looked upon as kaffirs, non muslims because of you all. First off i am not denying the fact about ALI IS ALLAH. Nor am I denying that their were murids who wanted to change Ali is allah to Ali is the Friend of Allah. What I am denying is what Ali Is Allah actually stands for. Remember our faith is not an exoteric faith but a faith that is esoteric. Meaning their is a deeper so apparently the word "Ali is Allah" must have a deeper meaning. Ismailis have never believed that Ali is Allah in the literal sense. What ismailis do believe is that the noor of allah is within the Imam of the Time. This does not means that ali is really allah, but means that the light of allah is within ali. Before the ismaili paparozi comes on hear and jumps on me saying how wrong i am let me remind you about a hadith of prophet mohummad. "Mine and Ali's light is the same". If this hadith is true and ismailis believe that it is true. Then does this means that ismailis believe that their are two allahs. One being the prophet and one being Imam Ali. Astargerfullah. No it doesnt what ismailis believe from what i have studied is simply that the noor of allah resides in the prophet and Imam Ali and the present Imam. The murids at this generation dont seem to grasp this concept so Ali is allah had to be changed to Ali is the friend of allah, The concept is the same the meaning is the same but the wording has changed. This is what is being taught in the New REC curriculum that hazar Imam has himself made. If you feel like challanging the imam on this go right ahead i am not going to stop you,

Actually the noor of ali and the noor of allah are one and the same.
Also you're quoting incomplete hadiths - there are other postings on this forum which quote complete hadiths - that you should visit - and I don't really care what other people think of me or my faith - as Hazar Imam and Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah have often said - our faith is one of conviction - not one of convenience...

the beauty of my faith is that it allows you the space to have your own belief with what works for you..what you say..doesn't work for me..or a lot of the others on this board...

Also..just as a correction - Hazar Imam has not created the new curriculum..it was created by the IIS ..and there is a purpose behind it's creation - as someone that's involved in our religious education system..i'll tell you that there are 2 components - Ta'alim and Ta'riqah...this curriculum only focuses on Ta'alim - not on Ta'riqah. The new secondary curriculum which hasn't been released as of yet..focuses heavily on Ta'riqah - please stop saying half baked things and making statements that are not entirely accurate. When you make a statement such as the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah are banned - be prepared to produce evidence to support your claim - the majority of us on this board aren't stupid or uneducated - and are aware of what happens in the institutions. I noticed when challenged on the claim of the banning of the farmans - you remain conspicuously quiet and didn't reraise the issue or address our queries.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Thanks Samir - Very well said and very well put - but I think this is falling on deaf ears in the case of someone like Imran whose intent is that of gathering a lynch mob against someone that are his spiritual brethren - and in order to justify his stance - is refusing to see reason.

The action has already taken place - no instead of bemoaning the action - let's look at how we can work to remedy and rectify and bring the community together and be united.

Shams

Oh wow i am creating a lynch mob against a spirtual brethren. Lol are you serious Shams. That is not my intent. My intent is to make these people realize the seriousness of this matter. If i did not consider them my spiritual brother then i wouldnt of said anything and let them go on sinning. I correct mukhis, and khamadias and a whole lot of people out their that do wrong.

You said "instead of bemoaning the action lets look at how we can work and rectify and bring the community together and be united". Wear have i been bemoaning the action. I am not bemoaning the action. I am asking that these people follow MHI wishes. How can we be unified when we know their are people out their that are going against MHI's wishes? Shouldnt we show these people the right way? Isnt it a job of every murid to help his fellow brother on the siratul mustaqim d?

Are you on Siratul mustaqeem?...you could've sent a private email..versus attempt to stone them in public....isn't their sharam - your sharam?...aren't we supposed to as part of our faith..hide the shame of others?
instead of shaming them further in public?

What makes you think that they didn't get hear the announcement in Jamat Khana and aren't taking actions to correct their errors?...

Tell me who else have you corrected in their practice of the faith?..have you reached out to people that aren't coming to JK..but sitting at home and watching TV? or those that aren't ethical in their daily lives? ..that you know of...? how many ismailies have you told to pay their taxes in full - and not try to cheat the IRS as that is not ethical? How many ismailies do you know that are in the U.S. and Canada illegally - which is unethical and have told them to become legal or have tried to help them?

Come on man..stop trying to make hay off this issue and make a name for yourself..get a grip on yourself..and really charity begins at home...if you can claim that your shirt is free of any spots and you are an exemplary ismaili..then all the power to you and even then..you don't have the standing to judge these folks or tell them what to do..that is left to the Imam of the time.

Shams

[imranramji2008]

Kalame Imame Mubeen is a collection of farmans that was compiled in 2 volumes. The date of these volumes states 1951, and they were complied in India. It is important to note that the authority that printed these two books was the Ismailia Association for Bombay. This was published under the full awareness of the Imam himself.

The reason these farmans are not read in Jamat Khane has nothing to do with a ban. Let be very clear so that you understand fully: there is no ban in existence. The problem is which farman are you going to read? The one that talks about Ali Allah? The one that refers to Ismailis as donkies? The one that dasond is mandatory? Tell me which farman do the people want to hear? These farmans are the bedrock of the faith. The audience of that time were far more receptive than the audience of today. Despite many problems at that time, no doubt, there are far more problems that can erupt from newer generations.

Remember that in 1905 it was Bhagat Juma, a leading missionary, along with many pious Ismailis who went to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah and pushed for a removal of the word Ali Allah (Ali is Allah) from the dua and replace it with Ali un wali Allah (Ali is the friend of Allah). The response by the Imam was that the whole dua should be removed if that word is altered. That word is the foundation of the faith. Without it the whole Ismaili faith means nothing. The meaning of it is that Ali is God himself. Now, if prominent people can come and challenge the Imam face to face then who is to say that they won’t propagate a ban on Kalame Imame Mubeen?

The Ismaili community has individuals who are active against the Imam while still remaining under the guise of being Ismaili. Unfortunately, that manifests itself clearly in the leadership. Don’t ever claim that Hazer Imam doesn’t want us to read his own Grandfather’s words. If that is the case then why doesn’t he ban his forefathers, the Pirs, or his ancestor – the Prophet Mohammad himself. Ban the Quran, it is far more destructive to the faith then Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans.

How can you keep the Quran when it is a forgery itself? Can you attest that it is the work of God? How so, when the entire Muslim Ummah knows that it was compiled by Caliph Osman? What makes you think that Osman had any reason to shed a positive light on Ali, his rival? Therefore, the entire Quran should first be banned rather than Kalame Imame Mubeen.

You are saying that “Aiglemont” has instructed that Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans should not be read in Jamat Khane. First of all, try to say “Imam” instead of SMS or Sultan Mohammad Shah. It is very irritating that you are not giving him the proper respect in name. Secondly, you like to always make up false claims without any sufficient proof. What “Aiglemont” are you talking about? Why do you create these false stories?

No single statement has been made by Hazer Imam banning his own grandfather’s farmans. If you think otherwise, then provide the document or the time and dates of such as statement if you are true. Don’t create false rumours which don’t exist. Don’t quote things that don’t have any proof whatsoever. Ismailis tend to say the Imam said this, the Imam said that, without any proof whatsoever. I am not saying that you are not entitled to free speech, I am simply saying don’t create words in the mouth of the Imam which don’t exist.

You said that some guidance presented at that time may not be relevant today, in context anyways. I think such statements cannot be made, in terms of an Imam. Perhaps you could re-phrase that in the sense that some material guidance pertains to that particular time. However, part of that guidance includes spiritual guidance and so people get confused that all of his guidance is outdated. That is the perception of such a statement.

The faith during the time of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah reflects the true principle of why people became Ismaili in the first place. The principle is that Ali is Allah. That was the foundation of the faith, and because people objected to it, the very word was altered to Aliyullah. Aliyullah is not the same as Ali Allah. Both are Arabic, and the need to change it was not the Imam’s idea. It was the idea of many individuals who wanted to ensure that the Imam is not associated with divinity. Who are these people? There is no specific person you can point the finger to. It is a general consensus. Not everybody shares the same view, but quite a lot do. In other words, how many Ismailis believe that Ali is Allah? You will notice on this board alone the Ismailis are divided as to whether that statement is true. How can such a division exist when that word is the bedrock of the faith? The Ismaili faith was founded upon the concept that the Imam is divine. Without that we are no different than Sunnis or other Shias.

Never say that the Imam has given guidance that certain books are banned. Books such as Kalame Imame Mubeen, Noorem Mubeen, and the dua by Pir Sadardin are all valid books and should be read by every Ismaili. In Jamat Khane it is perfectly fine to read Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans, and it is up to the people to decipher that which is pertinent and that which is understood to be historical. But no book should be banned.

I think you did not understand the meaning of what I meant when I said Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was more open. Let me give you an example. In that Imam’s time, seeing the ‘noor’ was not a private matter. The Imam in many instances would come to his followers and demand a show of hands as to who has or has not seen the noor of God. That cannot work today, not because of the Imam, but because of the people. If the Imam was to come into a public setting and demand how many people have seen the noor by a show of hands, and then criticize those who have failed then this generation would cause mass pandemonium. This is the generation that would take the Imam to court, if need be, and nakedly expose the faith as being too demanding. At that time, people understood the Imam as God. Therefore, if he demanded something and you did not fulfill it then it was your fault.

When Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah would say that Ismailis are donkies, the people of that time agreed. How many people of this generation would agree to be compared to donkies? This is a whole new ball game. This generation does not have the foundation of Ali Allah, and so there is a distance between the faith of the past and the faith of the present.

One can say that the faith has not changed in essence, but we are not talking about essence. We are talking about facts on paper, facts of worship. The fact is that Ali Allah is not accepted by every Ismaili and yet we are all supposed to be united in that concept. What happens then? Generations continue to drift away from the original principle of the faith. This is exactly what happened with the pictures in Jamat Khane.

There is a barrage of people who say that the Imam has given guidance that his own pictures be removed from the front portion of the Jamat Khane and are only to be placed on the sides. There is no such guidance at all from the Imam of the time.

The pictures were removed by the consensus of the people. Moreover, it was the consensus of the leadership. Having the pictures of Hazer Imam at the front of the Jamat Khane implies that when we are in prostration then it is to him. This didn’t sit well with certain individuals, and one day they were suddenly removed with the rumour that the Imam has ordered it to be that way. What order? What statement? There is no statement.

By putting the pictures only on the sides the message is that we are not bowing to the Imam, but rather the Imam and the Jamat is bowing to Allah. Notice that in every Jamat Khane, the face of the Imam is pointed in one direction. The picture in Jamat Khane has Hazer Imam facing to the left. That picture is placed on the men’s side. Now, an exact copy of that picture is put on the women’s side. Did anybody notice that the face in that picture on the women’s side is facing right? How can a copy of a picture face opposite directions? What that means is that ‘somebody’ wanted a copy of that picture, but that the face, regardless of being on the men’s side or women’s side should both be facing in the direction that the jamat is offering prostration. Why would the Imam agree to that when the bedrock of the faith is that we prostrate to him?

Now many individuals would read that and say, isn’t the Imam aware of that? My response is that can the Imam do anything about it? Do something and then what? If many of his own followers don’t consider him divine, then what is he supposed to do, cause a civil war? It is better for the Jamat and its leadership to resolve their issues on their own.

Even though Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s noor is the same as Hazer Imam, the people of that time versus now are completely different. One should give thanks to Kalame Imame Mubeen, because those farmans took Ismailis from poverty to wealth and fame. Today, the world still remembers how Aga Khan III took his followers from nothing to becoming successful in business and the professions. Many Ismailis at that time did not even exercise properly, and he would advice them to do so. Many Ismailis didn’t wear aprons when they cooked, and thus would appear very messy in their attire. It was the Imam who suggested that they wear aprons while cooking. Many farmans are about health, about how to treat the eyes, how to avoid certain foods, how to avoid become fat, how to avoid diseases. These may seem like little things by today’s standard, but you are taking for granted that which was not known at the time.

He was like a mother slowly teaching his children the difference between right and wrong. Now we say that his farmans are not relevant. The word relevant should never come up with regards to farmans.

and this is why ismailis are looked upon as kaffirs, non muslims because of you all. First off i am not denying the fact about ALI IS ALLAH. Nor am I denying that their were murids who wanted to change Ali is allah to Ali is the Friend of Allah. What I am denying is what Ali Is Allah actually stands for. Remember our faith is not an exoteric faith but a faith that is esoteric. Meaning their is a deeper so apparently the word "Ali is Allah" must have a deeper meaning. Ismailis have never believed that Ali is Allah in the literal sense. What ismailis do believe is that the noor of allah is within the Imam of the Time. This does not means that ali is really allah, but means that the light of allah is within ali. Before the ismaili paparozi comes on hear and jumps on me saying how wrong i am let me remind you about a hadith of prophet mohummad. "Mine and Ali's light is the same". If this hadith is true and ismailis believe that it is true. Then does this means that ismailis believe that their are two allahs. One being the prophet and one being Imam Ali. Astargerfullah. No it doesnt what ismailis believe from what i have studied is simply that the noor of allah resides in the prophet and Imam Ali and the present Imam. The murids at this generation dont seem to grasp this concept so Ali is allah had to be changed to Ali is the friend of allah, The concept is the same the meaning is the same but the wording has changed. This is what is being taught in the New REC curriculum that hazar Imam has himself made. If you feel like challanging the imam on this go right ahead i am not going to stop you,

Actually the noor of ali and the noor of allah are one and the same.
Also you're quoting incomplete hadiths - there are other postings on this forum which quote complete hadiths - that you should visit - and I don't really care what other people think of me or my faith - as Hazar Imam and Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah have often said - our faith is one of conviction - not one of convenience...

the beauty of my faith is that it allows you the space to have your own belief with what works for you..what you say..doesn't work for me..or a lot of the others on this board...

Also..just as a correction - Hazar Imam has not created the new curriculum..it was created by the IIS ..and there is a purpose behind it's creation - as someone that's involved in our religious education system..i'll tell you that there are 2 components - Ta'alim and Ta'riqah...this curriculum only focuses on Ta'alim - not on Ta'riqah. The new secondary curriculum which hasn't been released as of yet..focuses heavily on Ta'riqah - please stop saying half baked things and making statements that are not entirely accurate. When you make a statement such as the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah are banned - be prepared to produce evidence to support your claim - the majority of us on this board aren't stupid or uneducated - and are aware of what happens in the institutions. I noticed when challenged on the claim of the banning of the farmans - you remain conspicuously quiet and didn't reraise the issue or address our queries.

Shams

Yes the noor of ali and noor of allah are one, but i am sorry i cannot accept that Ali is Allah. This is too much of a christian concept that says that Jesus is the Son of God. Yes Imam Ali and the present Imam Have the Noor Of Allah but that in no way means that Imam and mowlana shah karim are allah them selves. They only have the noor of allah because Allah the all mighty has given them the noor. If allah wanted his noor could of been residing in Mowla shah karims Father, but it is not. It is because allah wishes the noor of allah to be within mowla shah karim that it is.

you said "the majority of us on this board aren't stupid or uneducated - and are aware of what happens in the institutions. I noticed when challenged on the claim of the banning of the farmans - you remain conspicuously quiet and didn't reraise the issue or address our queries."

Oh hear goes comes the conspiracy theories in full blown stance. LOL, I have dealt with these theories all my life, my grandfather is big on these conspiracy theories. I am not that old to know when and where these firmans were made but my grandfather has said their has been instructions by council by the authority of Hazir Imam to ban these books. My grandfather believes that MHI hasnt authorized this banned and council is acting on its own record. LOL.

This makes me laugh. If in a few years Hazar Imam tells us to recite namaz Five Times a day and that non ismaili and other muslims can come into khana. Their will be a handfull of ismailis that will say oh Mowla did not say this but the council is acting on its own record.

[ShamsB]

and this is why ismailis are looked upon as kaffirs, non muslims because of you all. First off i am not denying the fact about ALI IS ALLAH. Nor am I denying that their were murids who wanted to change Ali is allah to Ali is the Friend of Allah. What I am denying is what Ali Is Allah actually stands for. Remember our faith is not an exoteric faith but a faith that is esoteric. Meaning their is a deeper so apparently the word "Ali is Allah" must have a deeper meaning. Ismailis have never believed that Ali is Allah in the literal sense. What ismailis do believe is that the noor of allah is within the Imam of the Time. This does not means that ali is really allah, but means that the light of allah is within ali. Before the ismaili paparozi comes on hear and jumps on me saying how wrong i am let me remind you about a hadith of prophet mohummad. "Mine and Ali's light is the same". If this hadith is true and ismailis believe that it is true. Then does this means that ismailis believe that their are two allahs. One being the prophet and one being Imam Ali. Astargerfullah. No it doesnt what ismailis believe from what i have studied is simply that the noor of allah resides in the prophet and Imam Ali and the present Imam. The murids at this generation dont seem to grasp this concept so Ali is allah had to be changed to Ali is the friend of allah, The concept is the same the meaning is the same but the wording has changed. This is what is being taught in the New REC curriculum that hazar Imam has himself made. If you feel like challanging the imam on this go right ahead i am not going to stop you,

Actually the noor of ali and the noor of allah are one and the same.
Also you're quoting incomplete hadiths - there are other postings on this forum which quote complete hadiths - that you should visit - and I don't really care what other people think of me or my faith - as Hazar Imam and Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah have often said - our faith is one of conviction - not one of convenience...

the beauty of my faith is that it allows you the space to have your own belief with what works for you..what you say..doesn't work for me..or a lot of the others on this board...

Also..just as a correction - Hazar Imam has not created the new curriculum..it was created by the IIS ..and there is a purpose behind it's creation - as someone that's involved in our religious education system..i'll tell you that there are 2 components - Ta'alim and Ta'riqah...this curriculum only focuses on Ta'alim - not on Ta'riqah. The new secondary curriculum which hasn't been released as of yet..focuses heavily on Ta'riqah - please stop saying half baked things and making statements that are not entirely accurate. When you make a statement such as the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah are banned - be prepared to produce evidence to support your claim - the majority of us on this board aren't stupid or uneducated - and are aware of what happens in the institutions. I noticed when challenged on the claim of the banning of the farmans - you remain conspicuously quiet and didn't reraise the issue or address our queries.

Shams

Yes the noor of ali and noor of allah are one, but i am sorry i cannot accept that Ali is Allah. This is too much of a christian concept that says that Jesus is the Son of God. Yes Imam Ali and the present Imam Have the Noor Of Allah but that in no way means that Imam and mowlana shah karim are allah them selves. They only have the noor of allah because Allah the all mighty has given them the noor. If allah wanted his noor could of been residing in Mowla shah karims Father, but it is not. It is because allah wishes the noor of allah to be within mowla shah karim that it is.

you said "the majority of us on this board aren't stupid or uneducated - and are aware of what happens in the institutions. I noticed when challenged on the claim of the banning of the farmans - you remain conspicuously quiet and didn't reraise the issue or address our queries."

Oh hear goes comes the conspiracy theories in full blown stance. LOL, I have dealt with these theories all my life, my grandfather is big on these conspiracy theories. I am not that old to know when and where these firmans were made but my grandfather has said their has been instructions by council by the authority of Hazir Imam to ban these books. My grandfather believes that MHI hasnt authorized this banned and council is acting on its own record. LOL.

This makes me laugh. If in a few years Hazar Imam tells us to recite namaz Five Times a day and that non ismaili and other muslims can come into khana. Their will be a handfull of ismailis that will say oh Mowla did not say this but the council is acting on its own record.

There will always be those people that will do that..regardless of where the direction comes from - for me..as long as the leadership says..this is the direction of Hazar Imam - that is enough for me. After that it is upon the leadership's head if they mislead me by falsely using the name of the Imam. The leaders are answerable to the Imam.
Now someone else may say - isn't our faith one of intellect? shouldn't we question?...for me..Not when the name of the Imam is taken.

In regards to the farmans being banned - you have yet to produce a hidayat or a date or any reference to exactly when they were banned..is that something you heard someone tell you? or is that something you're guessing? Be careful how you respond to that..because as someone that works very closely with the related institutions - I will tell you that no such ban exists or is in place.
Btw..there are KK Aziz books floating around with the speeches of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - that are sold by our literature counters - strange isn't it that something that was public and very very contextual and relevant in that age and time but not in ours..is still sold but you say Farmans aren't? Have you even read the Farmans in Kalame Imame Mubin? next you'll be telling us that Pir Pandiyat Jawan Mardi shouldn't be read anymore..or Risala Dar Haqiqati Deen shouldn't printed. If the IIS can publish something by Tusi - which predates even the Pirs in India and it espouses very satpanthi thought and we can buy it in Jamat Khana, why would the words of the Previous Imam be banned...the Noor is the same.

I think i've made my point a few times. Now it's time for you to put up the evidence or admit that you don't have any hidayah that talks about banning Kalame Imame Mubin.

also notice i didn't say that Shah Karim the physical body is Allah - you missed the boat on that..I said the Noor of Ali is the same as the Noor of Allah and Shah Karim is the holder of that Noor. therefore..Ali is Allah - not the physical Ali - but the light....try to see beyond the physical.
The christian notion is a physical one..and the Imam himself as well as Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah (neither are banned farmans btw)...have talked about the father - son relationship being a physical one..a human concept and can not to be applicable to Allah as Allah is beyond human concepts.

And to me the Noor of Ali and Ali (Not the physical Ali) are the same thing..i.e. Shah Karim and Ali are the same.


Shams

[imranramji2008]

shams it is somthing i have heard. i even tried to go to the literature desk in our jamat khana and they told me that MHI has banned the book. I would really like to read some of those firmans if i could get my hands on those.

[ShamsB]

shams it is somthing i have heard. i even tried to go to the literature desk in our jamat khana and they told me that MHI has banned the book. I would really like to read some of those firmans if i could get my hands on those.

And because one uninformed person in a position of perceived authority said so - it became banned?.. This is how misinformation within the community starts - one person assuming and answering a question without research.

The book Kalame Imame Mubin is not banned - if you notice our literature desk focuses on selling books that are published by the IIS - and in English - as far as I can recall (and I could be wrong), our literature desks do not sell Farman books -but as I said, I could be wrong - and Kalame Imame Mubin has also not been translated into English - that might be a reason it's not being sold. If you're in Houston, there are places where you can obtain a gujrati edition.

Shams

[imranramji2008]

shams it is somthing i have heard. i even tried to go to the literature desk in our jamat khana and they told me that MHI has banned the book. I would really like to read some of those firmans if i could get my hands on those.

And because one uninformed person in a position of perceived authority said so - it became banned?.. This is how misinformation within the community starts - one person assuming and answering a question without research.

The book Kalame Imame Mubin is not banned - if you notice our literature desk focuses on selling books that are published by the IIS - and in English - as far as I can recall (and I could be wrong), our literature desks do not sell Farman books -but as I said, I could be wrong - and Kalame Imame Mubin has also not been translated into English - that might be a reason it's not being sold. If you're in Houston, there are places where you can obtain a gujrati edition.

Shams

not in houston in atlanta. In atlanta we are told by the literature desk that the kalame imam mubin has been banned. And their are firman books that are sold. Their is a firman book on the present imam that has firmans from 1960-1990 made in pakistan. I would really like the sultan mohummad shah firmans if available in english i dont know gujrati.

[samirnoorali]

Dear ShamsB:

I'm am very happy that you understand the truth in our faith. It is refreshing to hear your comments because I feel you are correct in your points.

Keep it up.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

[samirnoorali]

Dear imranramji2008:

As mentioned before, you have to be very careful when it comes to rumors. It is quite prevalent in this community to start rumors, because it is easy to spread information by word of mouth.

If you have come across many farmans of Hazer Imam, he has greatly emphasized, especially in the early 1970's, to beware of "rumour-mongers." You should get out of this habit of saying the Imam said this and the Imam said that. I don't particularly want to dive into your grandfather's business, nor do I know the person at the literature counter whom you speak of. But these are not representatives of the Imam, but more importantly they are not the source in question.

So never come on to this board to say to us that such and such farman is banned. There is no farman, and may I add no ginan, by an authorized Pir, that has ever been banned. I said authorized, so please keep that word in mind.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

[agakhani]

Brothers and sisters,
It is true that this topic and some posts are geting interested day after day and Admin should not block this interesting forums, but I noticed that few members are coping and pasting same post again and again and so discussion become longer and longer which make me and may other members bore,so I humbly request all members to stop coping and pasting again and again same post which already been copied and pasted? If you still need to draw attention please quote the few lines of that post and paste it thus we all can stop become discussion very intersting and longer and longer.
I personally hate to read same post again and again.

[sunnydays]

Dear Samir,
I know what you meant when you said "Ali is Allah", as I believe most of us do. But I can also understand why the use of that phrase seems to have been toned down in the past years. It's obvious that to those that don't share the same esoteric insight, that phrase would make us sound like we share Christian philosophy.

The outright use of this phrase would likely cause more confusion and stress between ismailis and the rest of the Ummah (especially Ismailis in areas that are surrounded and integrated within larger non-ismaili muslim communities).

It's an esoteric concept. And so long as we can understand that in our hearts, I don't know if its neccessary to openly announce it all the time.

anyways, good discussion. I hope you're all doing well which ever part of the world you're from.

[YaAliYaMowla]

brother samir,

now i will give you few examples , which are facts ..ok ?

a kamadiya was appointed by allah[imam] few years ago .....after one year this so called kamadiya was found cheating on kamyani.....didnt allah knew that this kamadiya will cause shame and disrespect to his office ??

a mukhi was appointed before this kamadiya again by allah[imam]...as his post was about to end he took XXX lakhs from the jamat [ people ] and ran away....he is now living in USA

a president of regional council is again appointed by this allah .....before his appointment this president was a middle class....soon after the completion of 3 years he is a multi millionare....in just 3 years , i wonder how can a man making 30,000 to 85,000 rupees[without deducting expenses] per month can have properties worth crores in a span of 3 years....

do you know h.noah [as] ??? god warned him about the flood and he inturn warned his followers....those who followed him were saved and those who did not were perished...right ???

we had a tsunami in south asia .....a huuuuuuuuuge earth quake in northern pakistan.....what did allah do ?? Did he warned you about what is coming ???

now lets turn this so called allah into imam[regular human] and see what did he do....

our imam was the 1st person to send his own private helicopters to rescue during the time of earthquake

our imam was super fast to send relief during the time of tsunami through his organisation FOCUS

i can go on and on.......brother iam not saying that you shouldnt believe that ali=allah...its ur choice, but YES we are changed when we see that our imam is just an ordinary human with no super powers like superman, batman, but .............WITH SUPER POWERFUL ORGANISATIONS like FOCUS, AKDN etc etc

hope i clarified your doubts !

Shiraz, Take it for its worth.. Allah also appointed Azazil as the leader of the jinn and angels. Did HE not know that he would later rebel?

As for the farman books, what's done is done unfortunately. The Jamati leadership, regardless of what people think about them, said that the Imam did not want to take legal actions. Therefore, it hurts me very much that our Imam has become hurt to take such actions, and I hope that those involved will take the actions necessary to end the hurt that this is causing our Imam. It is our Imam's happiness that should be MOST important to us.

[imranramji2008]

First off i need to know if we are talking about the esoteric or exoteric meaning of "Allah Is truely Allah". I have heard it to many times that allah has taken a human form in the present Hazar Imam. This stance i cannot agree with weither it be the esoteric or exoteric interpretation. I cannot accept this answer even in Talim vs tariqa. This is out right shirq. This is to much of a christian belief. If this is our belief that allah has manifested himself in the Hazar Imam please give firmans from the current Imam talking about this. Please no sultan mohummad shah's firman. Now if you say the light of allah has been bestowed on Hazar Imam then it is a totally different concept and this concept can be backed within the quran and many hadiths. THank you.

[ShamsB]

First off i need to know if we are talking about the esoteric or exoteric meaning of "Allah Is truely Allah". I have heard it to many times that allah has taken a human form in the present Hazar Imam. This stance i cannot agree with weither it be the esoteric or exoteric interpretation. I cannot accept this answer even in Talim vs tariqa. This is out right shirq. This is to much of a christian belief. If this is our belief that allah has manifested himself in the Hazar Imam please give firmans from the current Imam talking about this. Please no sultan mohummad shah's firman. Now if you say the light of allah has been bestowed on Hazar Imam then it is a totally different concept and this concept can be backed within the quran and many hadiths. THank you.

Pir has said in the ginan:
"Ek fikar munivar tamari che amane..manas rupe saheb jaan jo ji"...

Shams

[imranramji2008]

Pir has said in the ginan:
"Ek fikar munivar tamari che amane..manas rupe saheb jaan jo ji"...

Shams

english please

[20014413]

Imranramji: "Now if you say the light of allah has been bestowed o&shy;n Hazar Imam then it is a totally different concept and this concept can be backed within the quran and many hadiths."<BR><BR>Although we are all spiritual borthers and sisters, every individual has a personal relationship with the Imam aswell. Now, if someone considers him to be a friend then he is a friend to him/her and if someone thinks of him as being Allah then he is Allah. It s a matter of faith and heart. <BR>Just a few questions for you Imran: 1) I think you agree that light of Allah has been bestowed o&shy;n MHI. How is Allah's light different from Allah? Is The light/noor finite, that it can be separated of broken? &nbsp;

[imranramji2008]

Imranramji: "Now if you say the light of allah has been bestowed o&shy;n Hazar Imam then it is a totally different concept and this concept can be backed within the quran and many hadiths."<BR><BR>Although we are all spiritual borthers and sisters, every individual has a personal relationship with the Imam aswell. Now, if someone considers him to be a friend then he is a friend to him/her and if someone thinks of him as being Allah then he is Allah. It s a matter of faith and heart. <BR>Just a few questions for you Imran: 1) I think you agree that light of Allah has been bestowed o&shy;n MHI. How is Allah's light different from Allah? Is The light/noor finite, that it can be separated of broken? &nbsp;

yes it is a matter of faith of the heart about how we take our mowla to be, but out right saying the MHI is allah is out right shirk. I am sorry Ali is Allah is an esoteric concept. Remember our faith is to be interpreted both esoterically and exoterically, Also towards your question yes allah has bestowed his light onto the Imam, but this doesnt means that MHI is allah himself. Nor does it means that i am seperating allah and his light or breaking it up. What i am saying is that it is because of the grace of allah that allah's light is within MHI. I think we all can agree that if allah willed he could of put his light with MHI's brother or uncle or any one else

[samirnoorali]

I thank ShamsB for quoting this verse. Its translation: The Pir is saying that he worries whether his followers will recognize the Lord in the human form. In other words will his followers acknowledge Allah as manifest in the human form.

Since you mentioned that you don’t believe Ali is Allah then the ball stops there. That is your belief. But may I remind you that it was the Pirs who converted many Ismailis on the principle of Ali Allah. That was the reason for conversion. If you don’t recognize that then you are no different from a Sunni Muslim. Why bother talking about the noor like it is something apart from the flesh of Ali. If Ali is Allah, then when he lifts his hand, then you must know it is Allah’s hand. When Ali gives blessings, then you must know that is Allah’s blessings. The noor is not an external component separate from the personage of Imam. That would be like saying the soul of Imran is different from Imran himself. That doesn’t make any sense, since you are the soul in question.

Therefore, the noor is the person, and the person is the noor. The body of Imam will die, as did many forms before him. But the person who was in that body continues to exist eternally. Ali Allah means that Ali himself is God, the Creator. When you speak to Hazer Imam, then you are speaking to Allah himself. You cannot picturesque a soul. The reason being is that no soul has a physical form.

In the Quran there was no way for the Prophet to describe Allah as a soul. Therefore, he used a word that people could relate to, which was the noor or light. Light is something everybody can relate to, so he said that Allah is the light of the heavens and the Earth. Now, that light does not mean a physical luminescent light bulb. It doesn’t mean a ray of light coming from a distant star. This is not the light which he was referring to. You have to realize that 1400 years ago they could not fathom even a fraction of what we know today in terms of technology and science. Our minds can relate to such abstract concepts, but back then it was considered blasphemous.

Ali Allah means that Ali is the manifestation of Allah. Now, don’t twist that concept because it is not meant to be further complicated. If I say my name is Jupiter and I am in the body of Samir, then when I die the physical personage of Samir will go six feet under, but Jupiter will continue to exist.

To say that Ali Allah does not mean that Ali is Allah literally, but rather Ali has the noor of Allah is just a mockery of the principle in question. That is a hypocritical notion. Stop thinking hypocritically because it doesn’t make sense. Ali Allah is an verbal equation. Ali is Allah or Allah is Ali. It is a simple formula that doesn’t require a rocket scientist to figure out. Now whether a person believes that or not is an individual right. But the fact remains that that is the principle of the faith.

If you want Hazer Imam to explain everything to you then I suggest you write a letter and go through the proper channels. It doesn’t make sense for him to explain something that the Pirs spent generations to instil in their doctrine. It is like saying I would like the Imam to say that man has indeed landed on the moon. Why don’t you do your own research? There are many historical documents which attest to this principle.

I am appalled that you are willing to accept the Quran and Hadiths as “backed” sources but not Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s farmans. That means you are skipping 1400 years to the very present. So all that time in between means absolutely nothing to you. That is not healthy, because an Ismaili is the follower of a lineage that was rejected by Sunnis. Forget the Sunni path, the Sunni way, the Sunni philosophy. The Ismaili doctrine is completely different. Completely different so much so that there is almost nothing you can say relates the two sects other than they are Muslim in principle.

Sunni Muslims rejected Ali and that is entirely their right and opinion. We are not trying to put them down. If that is their interpretation then so be it. But don’t make a mockery of yourself by somehow linking Ismailis with Sunnis because the two paths are not related at all. Sunnis claim that the Prophet Mohammad was illiterate, and that he saw angel Gabriel in a cave. The Ismaili version of that event is completely different. The Ismaili version is that Mohammad was not illigerate and he did not receive a revelation in cave, but rather he was appointed as a Prophet by the Imam of the time, namely by his uncle Abu Talib.

So, if you want to understand Ismailism then you must first of all stay away from rumors and secondly, you must take a closer look into the principles of the faith as explained by the Pirs. Only they were able to shed light on an interpretation of history that puts Ismailis in a unique position.