So if Allah knows best, we should'nt even be having this discussion. Since our intellect can never reach him etc. etc. right?
also why do you think he needed to create us?
Belief in Allah
Sheza, Your argument was about "co incidence", to begin with and I said there is no coincidence in what HE has created for HE - the Exalted is well aware and is the best of all Creators....frankly your intellect and reasoning is limited and can NEVER envision or comprehend HIM for HE the supreme God stands alone and is Unique ! ...we all can talk ! means nothing !
Wherever your reasoning and intellect may reach it is everything EXCEPT the Supreme God !!!
There is thus nothing like an unmediated relationship....Allah has said to seek the means "Al-Wasila" because they are the true Muslimeen and are totally submitted !!
In the quran Sura al Hamd HE says, that you remember HIM ! why? so that HE may guide you to the path of those upon whom HE - the Exalted has bestowed favours ! why ? so that you may stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem !
Now many people want to serve Allah but they want to do so on an advisory capacity ! sorry but it does not work that way....one cannot place a question mark where Allah has already placed a full stop !
Why Allah created and pro created? isn't it obvious to you that He wants to be worshipped and discovered for HE is a treasure !!!
Kindly read some good books and the scriptures....answers to your questions are all there !
The problem is many of you claim that you follow the quran...but I have serious doubts...
"The fashioning of God, WHO perfecteth all things.." (Sura al Naml)
"And WE created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them, in vain..." (Sura S'ad)
"God has power to do all things" ( Sura al Kahf)
" Should HE not know what HE created? And HE is the subtle, the Aware ..."(Sura al Mulk)
"Verily God is aware of all things" ( Sura al Ankabut)
"SAY, God is the Creator of all things and HE is the ONE, the Almighty.." (Sura al Ra'd)
" Such is God, your Lord, the creator of all things.." (Sura al Ghafir)
"Can there be doubt concerning God, the Creator of heavens and the earth"? (Sura Ibrahim)
" Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day, are signs, for men of UNDERSTANDING.." (Sura al Imran)
"God is HE who sendeth the winds so that they raise clouds, and spreadeth them along the sky as HE Wills,.." (Sura al Ru'm)
"WHO made all things good which HE created.." (Sura al Sajda)
There are many such ayats....read the Quran !
Wherever your reasoning and intellect may reach it is everything EXCEPT the Supreme God !!!
There is thus nothing like an unmediated relationship....Allah has said to seek the means "Al-Wasila" because they are the true Muslimeen and are totally submitted !!
In the quran Sura al Hamd HE says, that you remember HIM ! why? so that HE may guide you to the path of those upon whom HE - the Exalted has bestowed favours ! why ? so that you may stay on Sirat ul Mustaqeem !
Now many people want to serve Allah but they want to do so on an advisory capacity ! sorry but it does not work that way....one cannot place a question mark where Allah has already placed a full stop !
Why Allah created and pro created? isn't it obvious to you that He wants to be worshipped and discovered for HE is a treasure !!!
Kindly read some good books and the scriptures....answers to your questions are all there !
The problem is many of you claim that you follow the quran...but I have serious doubts...
"The fashioning of God, WHO perfecteth all things.." (Sura al Naml)
"And WE created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them, in vain..." (Sura S'ad)
"God has power to do all things" ( Sura al Kahf)
" Should HE not know what HE created? And HE is the subtle, the Aware ..."(Sura al Mulk)
"Verily God is aware of all things" ( Sura al Ankabut)
"SAY, God is the Creator of all things and HE is the ONE, the Almighty.." (Sura al Ra'd)
" Such is God, your Lord, the creator of all things.." (Sura al Ghafir)
"Can there be doubt concerning God, the Creator of heavens and the earth"? (Sura Ibrahim)
" Lo ! in the creation of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and the day, are signs, for men of UNDERSTANDING.." (Sura al Imran)
"God is HE who sendeth the winds so that they raise clouds, and spreadeth them along the sky as HE Wills,.." (Sura al Ru'm)
"WHO made all things good which HE created.." (Sura al Sajda)
There are many such ayats....read the Quran !
@znanwalla: So you are saying its futile to debate on things we do not comprehend and attribute them to "God knows best". Our intellect is limited and he is all powerful and he told you this himself, no wait you read it in a book. So it has to be true. good logic my friend.
So basically giving us brains advanced enough to ask these kind of questions was a mistake or a test maybe?
And you say that he created us so that we could worship and discover him? why would he need worshiping and discovering if he was always complete, did he NEED us to worship him? or maybe this is another question that we shouldnt talk about since its beyond our intellect?
So basically giving us brains advanced enough to ask these kind of questions was a mistake or a test maybe?
And you say that he created us so that we could worship and discover him? why would he need worshiping and discovering if he was always complete, did he NEED us to worship him? or maybe this is another question that we shouldnt talk about since its beyond our intellect?
Sheza, It is futile to argue over certain definitive issues unless you want to sound "satanic"...would you argue with me if I said "ALL praise is due to Allah"? Praise is an aspect of gratitude !
To say "Allah knows best" is an expression of IMAN which you seem to lack and then you pretend here that you are an Ismaili in order to portray us in poor light...
Each creature, insofar as it is a contingent being, has a particular existential limit and extent and so they exist only in a particular way EXCEPT Allah Himself save that the limitations of the creatures are varied and differ in their degrees and they take different modes of existence....to debate is understandable - to look idiotic like you do, is another thing altogether !
The Initial measure or "taqdir" of all things comes from HIM - it is an Act of God - an active determination ! and apportionment of HIS Act in time and before HE creates HE the Exalted already knows the unmanifest state of latency and its potentiality for HE is the best Creator ! rather than arguing unduly go and do some reading on the concepts of Qadar and Qada...and so whilst there is no "Jabr", there can also not be absolute freedom !..."WE have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.."
If you "good" muslims claim that you are believers (the prophet has disowned you already - read his ahadith) but giving you a benefit of doubt then to believe and have faith in the premise that "God knows best" is Ipso facto also a participation in a pre ordianed state of grace and which you somehow lack and that is why islam is in turbulence today.
The insidious suggestion (al waswaas al khannaas) is the "Whisperer who hides away" and is the personification of the devil and tries to work through the human beings in the form of genii or demons because of their own delusive capacity !
As a mortal, transient being the humankind is constitutionally weak...he retains a subjective consciousness susceptible to emotional upsets, conditioning and dependency and so the humankind is psychologically weak and so "Allah knows best" is correct !
To say "Allah knows best" is an expression of IMAN which you seem to lack and then you pretend here that you are an Ismaili in order to portray us in poor light...
Each creature, insofar as it is a contingent being, has a particular existential limit and extent and so they exist only in a particular way EXCEPT Allah Himself save that the limitations of the creatures are varied and differ in their degrees and they take different modes of existence....to debate is understandable - to look idiotic like you do, is another thing altogether !
The Initial measure or "taqdir" of all things comes from HIM - it is an Act of God - an active determination ! and apportionment of HIS Act in time and before HE creates HE the Exalted already knows the unmanifest state of latency and its potentiality for HE is the best Creator ! rather than arguing unduly go and do some reading on the concepts of Qadar and Qada...and so whilst there is no "Jabr", there can also not be absolute freedom !..."WE have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.."
If you "good" muslims claim that you are believers (the prophet has disowned you already - read his ahadith) but giving you a benefit of doubt then to believe and have faith in the premise that "God knows best" is Ipso facto also a participation in a pre ordianed state of grace and which you somehow lack and that is why islam is in turbulence today.
The insidious suggestion (al waswaas al khannaas) is the "Whisperer who hides away" and is the personification of the devil and tries to work through the human beings in the form of genii or demons because of their own delusive capacity !
As a mortal, transient being the humankind is constitutionally weak...he retains a subjective consciousness susceptible to emotional upsets, conditioning and dependency and so the humankind is psychologically weak and so "Allah knows best" is correct !
Sheza,
It is clear that the excellence of the Creator has its concomitant, the Excellence of HIS Creation .... HIS acts too are excellent !
" the Knower of the Invisible, the Mighty, the Merciful who made Excellent all things which HE Created..." (sURA xxx11: 6:7)......
"Blessed be God, the best of Creators" (XX111:14)..... HIS acts are the most perfect and complete insofar as this Creation is HIS own act in time and that is why the world is true and wisely ordered.
There is no co incidence ! except in the figment of your own imagination !
It is clear that the excellence of the Creator has its concomitant, the Excellence of HIS Creation .... HIS acts too are excellent !
" the Knower of the Invisible, the Mighty, the Merciful who made Excellent all things which HE Created..." (sURA xxx11: 6:7)......
"Blessed be God, the best of Creators" (XX111:14)..... HIS acts are the most perfect and complete insofar as this Creation is HIS own act in time and that is why the world is true and wisely ordered.
There is no co incidence ! except in the figment of your own imagination !
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
52:35 (Picktall) Or were they created out of naught? Or are they the creators?
52:36 (Picktall) Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!
52:37 (Picktall) Or do they own the treasures of thy Lord? Or have they been given charge (thereof)?
52:38 (Picktall) Or have they any stairway (unto heaven) by means of which they overhear (decrees). Then let their listener produce warrant manifest!
52:39 (Picktall) Or hath He daughters whereas ye have sons?
52:40 (Picktall) Or askest thou (Muhammad) a fee from them so that they are plunged in debt?
52:41 (Picktall) Or possess they the Unseen so that they can write (it) down? -
52:42 (Picktall) Or seek they to ensnare (the messenger)? But those who disbelieve, they are the ensnared!
52:43 (Picktall) Or have they any god beside Allah? Glorified be Allah from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
bottom line " THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH " , this is the moooooost important fundamental, if anybody denies this he/she is nothing but idol worshipper ....you cannot compare him with anyone [not even imam]
dont forget even IMAMS ARE SERVANT OF ALLAH[swt] and so are PROPHETS[saw] on the judgement day they all will be called followed by their ummah and will be judged with what they taught and what people actually did !
52:36 (Picktall) Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they are sure of nothing!
52:37 (Picktall) Or do they own the treasures of thy Lord? Or have they been given charge (thereof)?
52:38 (Picktall) Or have they any stairway (unto heaven) by means of which they overhear (decrees). Then let their listener produce warrant manifest!
52:39 (Picktall) Or hath He daughters whereas ye have sons?
52:40 (Picktall) Or askest thou (Muhammad) a fee from them so that they are plunged in debt?
52:41 (Picktall) Or possess they the Unseen so that they can write (it) down? -
52:42 (Picktall) Or seek they to ensnare (the messenger)? But those who disbelieve, they are the ensnared!
52:43 (Picktall) Or have they any god beside Allah? Glorified be Allah from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
bottom line " THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH " , this is the moooooost important fundamental, if anybody denies this he/she is nothing but idol worshipper ....you cannot compare him with anyone [not even imam]
dont forget even IMAMS ARE SERVANT OF ALLAH[swt] and so are PROPHETS[saw] on the judgement day they all will be called followed by their ummah and will be judged with what they taught and what people actually did !
" THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH is then the "worship" itself mandated and a primary reason why Allah created - so that HE could be known and worshipped without joining any Idols to HIM and discovered!
The pagans only knew their worthless idols ! They were obsessed by their passions and Iblis was clutching their throats !
Sura al Faatiha is considered the "Lord's prayer" of Jesus and the Holy Prophet declared the opening i.e. it opens the doors to the quran, to be the best of chapters and its seven verses are the most oft repeated lines of the noble quran...and it introduces the frequently used "epithets" of Allah and so it makes me wonder when people ask irrelevant questions and make contentious arguments for the sake of one up manship and false pride!
The intensive forms in this Sura refer to the exaltation of Allah infinitely beyond any corresponding human qualities....and so there are no co incidences, if you will !
The pagans only knew their worthless idols ! They were obsessed by their passions and Iblis was clutching their throats !
Sura al Faatiha is considered the "Lord's prayer" of Jesus and the Holy Prophet declared the opening i.e. it opens the doors to the quran, to be the best of chapters and its seven verses are the most oft repeated lines of the noble quran...and it introduces the frequently used "epithets" of Allah and so it makes me wonder when people ask irrelevant questions and make contentious arguments for the sake of one up manship and false pride!
The intensive forms in this Sura refer to the exaltation of Allah infinitely beyond any corresponding human qualities....and so there are no co incidences, if you will !
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
ejee allaah ek khasam sabukaa, duneeyaa usakee saaree
aveechal naam khudaava(n)d bhanneeye
or sab meetteeyaa keree baajee
illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1
Allah is the only Lord of everything, the entire world is His(or under His command).Understand the name(attribute) of the Lord as being eternal and everlasting and the rest is all perishable and illusory. Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation). O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your souls and do not condemn your souls to hell.
aveechal naam khudaava(n)d bhanneeye
or sab meetteeyaa keree baajee
illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1
Allah is the only Lord of everything, the entire world is His(or under His command).Understand the name(attribute) of the Lord as being eternal and everlasting and the rest is all perishable and illusory. Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation). O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your souls and do not condemn your souls to hell.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
ejee avichal allah avichal khaalak
avichal kaaem dayaal eji.....................................1
Everlasting is Allah, everlasting is the Creator, everlasting is the Enduring and Merciful One.
ejee avichal rehannaa avichal rehamat
avichal duras divaan eji.....................................2
Everlasting is His existence, everlasting is His mercy, everlasting is His righteous court.
ejee haphat chij mere khaalak siraji
so bi rehann-haaraa eji......................................3
Seven things have been fashioned by my Creator, and those are the ones which endure.
ejee ek aras ne dujaa te kuras
trijaa tul mijaan eji........................................4
The first is His heaven, the second His throne, the third the scales and balance.
ejee chothaa lohaa pa(n)chamaa kalamaa
chhatthaa dojak jaanno eji...................................5
The fourth is the tablet, the fifth the pen, and know that hell is the sixth.
ejee saatmaa behesht sunno mere bhaai
so amar thaan vakhaannu(n) eji...............................6
The seventh is paradise. Listen, my brother, as I praise that everlasting abode.
avichal kaaem dayaal eji.....................................1
Everlasting is Allah, everlasting is the Creator, everlasting is the Enduring and Merciful One.
ejee avichal rehannaa avichal rehamat
avichal duras divaan eji.....................................2
Everlasting is His existence, everlasting is His mercy, everlasting is His righteous court.
ejee haphat chij mere khaalak siraji
so bi rehann-haaraa eji......................................3
Seven things have been fashioned by my Creator, and those are the ones which endure.
ejee ek aras ne dujaa te kuras
trijaa tul mijaan eji........................................4
The first is His heaven, the second His throne, the third the scales and balance.
ejee chothaa lohaa pa(n)chamaa kalamaa
chhatthaa dojak jaanno eji...................................5
The fourth is the tablet, the fifth the pen, and know that hell is the sixth.
ejee saatmaa behesht sunno mere bhaai
so amar thaan vakhaannu(n) eji...............................6
The seventh is paradise. Listen, my brother, as I praise that everlasting abode.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
ejee ham dil khaalaq, Allah sohee vasejee,
jene kaayam kudarat chalaai..................ebhee allah.....1
In our hearts, resides Allah the Creator; the same Lord Allah who establishes
and sustains the everlasting nature and creation..He is indeed the Lord.
ejee sun be mullaa, sun be kaajee,
e sesht kenne rachaai........................ebhee allah.....2
Listen to me, O you priests and judges! (tell me),
who has created this universe?.........He is indeed the Lord
ejee isare maattee maa(n)hethee, saaree duniyaa neepaai,
isame konn hindu, konn musalmaan.............ebhee allah.....3
The Lord has created the whole world from this dust, (so) who
in it is a Hindu and who a Muslim?..........He is indeed the Lord.
ejee hindu sohee je addasatth tirath jaave
musalmaan maseetaa...........................ebhee allah.....4
A Hindu is he who visits sixty-eight shrines (for pilgrimage) and a
Muslim is the one who goes to a mosque.....He is indeed the Lord
ejee mere shaahku hindu na jaanne musalmaan na buje,
shaah betthaa nira(n)jan hoi.................ebhee allah.....5
Neither the Hindu nor the Muslim knows my Lord, for my Lord is omnipotent.He is the creator...5
ejee man meraa musallah allah meraa kaajee
kaayaa hameree maseetaa......................ebhee allah.....6
My heart is the praying-carpet, Allah is my Qazi,And my body is the Mosque. He is the creator...6
jene kaayam kudarat chalaai..................ebhee allah.....1
In our hearts, resides Allah the Creator; the same Lord Allah who establishes
and sustains the everlasting nature and creation..He is indeed the Lord.
ejee sun be mullaa, sun be kaajee,
e sesht kenne rachaai........................ebhee allah.....2
Listen to me, O you priests and judges! (tell me),
who has created this universe?.........He is indeed the Lord
ejee isare maattee maa(n)hethee, saaree duniyaa neepaai,
isame konn hindu, konn musalmaan.............ebhee allah.....3
The Lord has created the whole world from this dust, (so) who
in it is a Hindu and who a Muslim?..........He is indeed the Lord.
ejee hindu sohee je addasatth tirath jaave
musalmaan maseetaa...........................ebhee allah.....4
A Hindu is he who visits sixty-eight shrines (for pilgrimage) and a
Muslim is the one who goes to a mosque.....He is indeed the Lord
ejee mere shaahku hindu na jaanne musalmaan na buje,
shaah betthaa nira(n)jan hoi.................ebhee allah.....5
Neither the Hindu nor the Muslim knows my Lord, for my Lord is omnipotent.He is the creator...5
ejee man meraa musallah allah meraa kaajee
kaayaa hameree maseetaa......................ebhee allah.....6
My heart is the praying-carpet, Allah is my Qazi,And my body is the Mosque. He is the creator...6
So what? We have reason to believe that (existence is not accidental) and it is not because we (humans) feel important. Do you (atheists) not believe in God because you feel you are unimportant and therefore your existence can't be the result of a purposeful Divine Act?We as humans feel so important that we need to have a reason for our existence, we can not accept that it could be accidental.
So what?We look at nature in amazement and say its proof of a creator.
So what?We look at the complexity of the human body and say its proof.
No. Rather, we say what’s the use of doing good when there are no objective morals by which we do good.We are afraid to accept that after we die there is nothing, so we say whats the use of doing good if we don't get a reward.
Well what are your arguments against the existence of God?[...]I am open to arguments in favor of existence of God[...]
Binom,
At least I have proved that you are not an Ismaili .... you have the audacity to call us "atheist"....you must be a joker !
You say..." Do you (atheists) not believe in God because you feel you are unimportant and therefore your existence can't be the result of a purposeful Divine Act?.."
The answer is simple ! How can we be unimportant to Allah when Allah HIMSELF created us and breathed HIS own Spirit in us ?
"AND God brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers while ye knew NOTHING and HE gave you hearing, sight and hearts (AF'IDA that ye may give thanks...." (Sura al Nahl)...WE do shukrana ! Where does the quran say that we should consider ourselves unimportant when humankind is infact Allah's finest creation? What rubbish are you talking?
The Quran says in Sura al Rum that HE created mankind in the "nature of God (Fitrat Allah) and so can anything created in HIS nature be unimportant?
Ofcourse those who betrayed the Prophet and abandoned his religion and then followed the Islam of the Shaikeen are worthless and unimportant - even the Prophet of God has classified such people as "MINNIONS of satan in his famous hadith AMAN UL UMMA ! In reality they are the non-believers !
At least I have proved that you are not an Ismaili .... you have the audacity to call us "atheist"....you must be a joker !
You say..." Do you (atheists) not believe in God because you feel you are unimportant and therefore your existence can't be the result of a purposeful Divine Act?.."
The answer is simple ! How can we be unimportant to Allah when Allah HIMSELF created us and breathed HIS own Spirit in us ?
"AND God brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers while ye knew NOTHING and HE gave you hearing, sight and hearts (AF'IDA that ye may give thanks...." (Sura al Nahl)...WE do shukrana ! Where does the quran say that we should consider ourselves unimportant when humankind is infact Allah's finest creation? What rubbish are you talking?
The Quran says in Sura al Rum that HE created mankind in the "nature of God (Fitrat Allah) and so can anything created in HIS nature be unimportant?
Ofcourse those who betrayed the Prophet and abandoned his religion and then followed the Islam of the Shaikeen are worthless and unimportant - even the Prophet of God has classified such people as "MINNIONS of satan in his famous hadith AMAN UL UMMA ! In reality they are the non-believers !
Znanwalla,At least I have proved that you are not an Ismaili .... you have the audacity to call us "atheist"....you must be a joker !
Are you mentally challenged? First, I never claimed to be an Ismaili. Second, I never called you an atheist; I didn’t even address your post. I was replying to Zena, who does not believe in God i.e. an atheist.
@znanwalla:
Thank you for calling me names. thats very mature of you. Btw your quoting from Quran and Ginan to answer me is called circular logic. Honestly, i believe thats the only kind you have. You claim to have Iman, if your Iman is based on what someone else said or wrote without thinking about it yourself, im glad i dont have it.
if there were more people like you, we would still believe the earth to be the center of the universe. and BTW @binom's response was to me and not you
but you cant help it can you?
@shiraz.virani:
Thanks for the efforts, but its still circular logic.
@binom:
I am not an atheist. the only sure thing i can say is i dont believe in an personal, abrahamic god AT THIS POINT IN MY LIFE.
Its another debate whether objective morality is sufficient proof of existence of God.
And I dont have any arguments against the existence of god, no one does. I did not come here to offend people of give "ismaili's" a bad name.
I was hoping to find someone who found themselves in my predicament and "thought" their way out of it rather than relying on "someone told me that someone told them that someone told them that Allah is the creator" like my easily irritate friend znanwalla.
and since theres no hocus pocus in religion it should be possible right?
Thank you for calling me names. thats very mature of you. Btw your quoting from Quran and Ginan to answer me is called circular logic. Honestly, i believe thats the only kind you have. You claim to have Iman, if your Iman is based on what someone else said or wrote without thinking about it yourself, im glad i dont have it.
if there were more people like you, we would still believe the earth to be the center of the universe. and BTW @binom's response was to me and not you
but you cant help it can you?@shiraz.virani:
Thanks for the efforts, but its still circular logic.
@binom:
I am not an atheist. the only sure thing i can say is i dont believe in an personal, abrahamic god AT THIS POINT IN MY LIFE.
Its another debate whether objective morality is sufficient proof of existence of God.
And I dont have any arguments against the existence of god, no one does. I did not come here to offend people of give "ismaili's" a bad name.
I was hoping to find someone who found themselves in my predicament and "thought" their way out of it rather than relying on "someone told me that someone told them that someone told them that Allah is the creator" like my easily irritate friend znanwalla.
and since theres no hocus pocus in religion it should be possible right?
A Moral Existence
Steven Mahone
The Chachapoya were a people that flourished in the Peruvian Andes for well over a thousand years until they eventually succumbed to the changing times and (most likely) were assimilated into the Incas around 500 years ago. They certainly never met a contemporary European or Asian. In fact, there are no indications of any outside influences on their culture for the majority of their history. All of the archeological data indicates that they were a peaceful people who managed to build a compassionate and cooperative society that lasted for nearly two thousand years.
Consider that Chachapoya never had access to the Judeo laws and morals as handed down by Moses. They had never heard of Vishnu, Brahma, or Maheshawara (Hindu), nor did the angel Moroni bestow revelations to anyone in their culture as far as we know. How, then, did they manage to manage for so long? Was there a "built-in" moral code from God that kept them from raping and pillaging each other? If so, why didn't they show homage to this intimate influence in the many artifacts they left behind? If not, then why didn't an "evil presence" succeed in filling their perspective on life with despair and wretchedness? Is the fact that this didn't happen evidence in itself that someone was "looking out" for them? Perhaps, I suppose, but that seems a little too convenient (if not disingenuous), especially when you acknowledge the many atrocities committed by cultures that did (and still do) claim a divine moral guidance.
The prevailing religious influence on our current western society emphasizes the belief that no person can be "saved" unless he is somehow redeemed through an acceptance of their unique path to salvation. Under such constraints, then, the Chachapoyans didn't have a chance. According to this ecclesiastical doctrine they were doomed without even knowing it--by a God they never had an opportunity to comprehend. Can such an oversight really be attributed to God? Or does logic and reason tell us that such a discrepancy is not really a discrepancy at all?
We are often asked to ponder how meaningless our existence would be to simply consider ourselves as nothing more than a progression of the impersonal laws of nature to which we have always been subject. Yet, if it's true, are we something less than what we are now? Wouldn't we continue to love our children just as much under such circumstances? We are implored to reflect on how lost we would be without a gospel to guide our collective redemption and personal salvation. Well, I think of the Chachapoyans and wonder how they managed to endure without such assistance. My suspicion is that how they did it differed little from the multitudes who came before and after them.
The Chachapoya are an example for all of us, but especially to the many that place their faith in the rules written by men who claim to be guided by the inspiration of God, Himself. These same men would no doubt have little difficulty in dismissing the Chachapoya with such platitudes as "God's way is mysterious," or "Man can't fully comprehend the divine plan." Really? I wonder if such comforting explanations are revealed to all, or just to those who are "chosen" to lead the way. The evidence shows that the Chachapoya did just fine--and that alone should tell us just how "inspired" such claims truly are.
I guess I still need help, then, in understanding why it would be beneficial for me (or anyone else) to surrender to any belief that, when you get down to the essence of it, tells me that I should be grateful for not being born a Chachapoyan. Such a belief most surely diminishes us all--including any God that may be out there paying attention.
Steven Mahone
The Chachapoya were a people that flourished in the Peruvian Andes for well over a thousand years until they eventually succumbed to the changing times and (most likely) were assimilated into the Incas around 500 years ago. They certainly never met a contemporary European or Asian. In fact, there are no indications of any outside influences on their culture for the majority of their history. All of the archeological data indicates that they were a peaceful people who managed to build a compassionate and cooperative society that lasted for nearly two thousand years.
Consider that Chachapoya never had access to the Judeo laws and morals as handed down by Moses. They had never heard of Vishnu, Brahma, or Maheshawara (Hindu), nor did the angel Moroni bestow revelations to anyone in their culture as far as we know. How, then, did they manage to manage for so long? Was there a "built-in" moral code from God that kept them from raping and pillaging each other? If so, why didn't they show homage to this intimate influence in the many artifacts they left behind? If not, then why didn't an "evil presence" succeed in filling their perspective on life with despair and wretchedness? Is the fact that this didn't happen evidence in itself that someone was "looking out" for them? Perhaps, I suppose, but that seems a little too convenient (if not disingenuous), especially when you acknowledge the many atrocities committed by cultures that did (and still do) claim a divine moral guidance.
The prevailing religious influence on our current western society emphasizes the belief that no person can be "saved" unless he is somehow redeemed through an acceptance of their unique path to salvation. Under such constraints, then, the Chachapoyans didn't have a chance. According to this ecclesiastical doctrine they were doomed without even knowing it--by a God they never had an opportunity to comprehend. Can such an oversight really be attributed to God? Or does logic and reason tell us that such a discrepancy is not really a discrepancy at all?
We are often asked to ponder how meaningless our existence would be to simply consider ourselves as nothing more than a progression of the impersonal laws of nature to which we have always been subject. Yet, if it's true, are we something less than what we are now? Wouldn't we continue to love our children just as much under such circumstances? We are implored to reflect on how lost we would be without a gospel to guide our collective redemption and personal salvation. Well, I think of the Chachapoyans and wonder how they managed to endure without such assistance. My suspicion is that how they did it differed little from the multitudes who came before and after them.
The Chachapoya are an example for all of us, but especially to the many that place their faith in the rules written by men who claim to be guided by the inspiration of God, Himself. These same men would no doubt have little difficulty in dismissing the Chachapoya with such platitudes as "God's way is mysterious," or "Man can't fully comprehend the divine plan." Really? I wonder if such comforting explanations are revealed to all, or just to those who are "chosen" to lead the way. The evidence shows that the Chachapoya did just fine--and that alone should tell us just how "inspired" such claims truly are.
I guess I still need help, then, in understanding why it would be beneficial for me (or anyone else) to surrender to any belief that, when you get down to the essence of it, tells me that I should be grateful for not being born a Chachapoyan. Such a belief most surely diminishes us all--including any God that may be out there paying attention.
You must be a deist then. So now what are your reasons for not believing in theism since you’re so sure of your unbelief in it?I am not an atheist. the only sure thing i can say is i dont believe in an personal, abrahamic god AT THIS POINT IN MY LIFE.
I know that it is (another debate). But, your suggestion that ‘we propose the existence of God’ because “We are afraid to accept that after we die there is nothing, so we say what’s the use of doing good if we don't get a reward”, needed to be corrected. What I was trying to get across was that we (theists) don’t say God must exist because we want rewards for doing good, but, as I said, because doing good means nothing if there are no objective morals by which we do good. It was not my intent to get into a debate about whether objective morality points toward the existence of God (although I believe it does) but only to correct your statement about why we postulate the existence of God with regards to the question of doing good.Its another debate whether objective morality is sufficient proof of existence of God.
I take it you mean you don’t have arguments against a non-personal God since you’re a deist. Now, what are you reasons for not believing in theism i.e. a personal God? If you don’t have any, then what is the source of your unbelief?And I dont have any arguments against the existence of god, no one does.
Again, how exactly did you ‘think’ your way out of theism, assuming that you once believed in it? Or did you naturally not believe in (a personal) God? If so, why?I was hoping to find someone who found themselves in my predicament and "thought" their way out of it rather than relying on "someone told me that someone told them that someone told them that Allah is the creator"...
In posting that article to prove something of your case, I hope you realize that you’re guilty of what you charge znanwalla with, namely, a form of “relying on someone told me that someone told them that someone told them that [Steven Mahone said… etc.].A Moral Existence
Steven Mahone
The Chachapoya were a people that flourished in the Peruvian Andes....
if anything id call myself an Agnostic.
As for my "reason/source for unbelief":
I cant say exactly when I started "not believing" my mother says I was very religious as a child, I remember the year 2000 as a significant turning point, when i started asking "difficult questions" but didnt get any responses that satisfied me.
I got responses like because Quran says so, and pir says so etc. etc.
it didnt make sense to me why i was expected to use reason and logic when it came all other aspects of day to day life, and discard them when it came to religion.
over time I developed a bias for rationality/logic (belief in arguments which can be arrived at through extrapolation on empirical evidence, and through deductive reasoning regarding the properties of the universe)
I know that this is just one way of thinking/looking at the world around us, but it has been a reason for great progress and prosperity for mankind(materialistic at least).
Lately i had resigned to the fact that existence of God can not be proved/disproved by logic. but here i am again at it, the question still bugs me, and im no closer to finding an answer.
As for my "reason/source for unbelief":
I cant say exactly when I started "not believing" my mother says I was very religious as a child, I remember the year 2000 as a significant turning point, when i started asking "difficult questions" but didnt get any responses that satisfied me.
I got responses like because Quran says so, and pir says so etc. etc.
it didnt make sense to me why i was expected to use reason and logic when it came all other aspects of day to day life, and discard them when it came to religion.
over time I developed a bias for rationality/logic (belief in arguments which can be arrived at through extrapolation on empirical evidence, and through deductive reasoning regarding the properties of the universe)
I know that this is just one way of thinking/looking at the world around us, but it has been a reason for great progress and prosperity for mankind(materialistic at least).
Lately i had resigned to the fact that existence of God can not be proved/disproved by logic. but here i am again at it, the question still bugs me, and im no closer to finding an answer.
I couldn't resist the temptation to respond to your view on objective morality.binom wrote:In posting that article to prove something of your case, I hope you realize that you’re guilty of what you charge znanwalla with, namely, a form of “relying on someone told me that someone told them that someone told them that [Steven Mahone said… etc.].A Moral Existence
Steven Mahone
The Chachapoya were a people that flourished in the Peruvian Andes....
Maybe you're right and that the Chachpoyans were barbaric and evil, i never met a Chachpoyan. so point taken.
I didn’t think you were an agnostic because of the fact that “the only sure thing [you] can say is [you] don’t believe in [a] personal, Abrahamic god.” But perhaps you’re an agnostic with respect to deism but not theism?if anything id call myself an Agnostic.
Maybe you weren’t asking the right people? What were these difficult questions?As for my "reason/source for unbelief":
I cant say exactly when I started "not believing" my mother says I was very religious as a child, I remember the year 2000 as a significant turning point, when i started asking "difficult questions" but didnt get any responses that satisfied me.
I got responses like because Quran says so, and pir says so etc. etc.
I've heard wise men say use them, even when it comes to religion; for many a (religious) people have benefited from them or (godless people) have turned to religion because of them. But, always keep in mind their limits.it didnt make sense to me why i was expected to use reason and logic when it came all other aspects of day to day life, and discard them when it came to religion.
I can only say that I hope you find your answers.Lately i had resigned to the fact that existence of God can not be proved/disproved by logic. but here i am again at it, the question still bugs me, and im no closer to finding an answer.
Living in God's Modern Day World
by Michael Levy
With the Holidays just around the corner, I thought God may have some message about how we humans are heading in the wrong direction.
Perhaps the message would be written on the lines of the following essay ... Enjoy!
A Message from God
for those with Open Hearts and Receptive Minds
As God almighty, who exists in multi-dimensional guises of intelligent energy, I am everyone's friend on earth, but most people no longer recognize me as their friend, so I guess I am not so mighty? ... Well, that is because it is not my intent to make anyone do what he or she does not want to do.
The old saying, a friend in need is a friend indeed, may still hold true for a few, but anyone who speaks authentic truths has become a little redundant in today's media driven world and are avoided like the plague.
People have grown far more fickle and if their well intended friend does not conform to their social standard lifestyle or way of thinking, the kind hearted friend becomes a fiendish irritation.
From my Divine experience, I can honestly say as an omnipresent, universal, evolving/creating God, that I have never lost a friend; however, many friends have lost my company ... more so in the last few thousand years, as I silently talk more freely about the genuine way to live life on earth.
I understand many of my earthly, human friends have their quirks and idiosyncrasies and I have learnt to play along with their perspectives whilst speaking universal, indisputable truth.
I speak in silent tones directed at the intelligence of human intuition, insights, feelings, etc...All outside the intellects/egos grasp, however not outside its reach and understanding.
Unfortunately, because of humans religious beliefs, superior education, scientific knowledge or social standing, they perceive my simplicity is not to their sophisticated liking and their opinions can no longer associate themselves with me as their God without any labels.
I am the first to admit my cup of simplicity runneth over and in the eyes of sophisticated people, who consider themselves to be clever in some way or other, that just will not fit into the image of who they believe themselves to be... That is why they have vanquished themselves from my paradise.
Maybe they believe their doctrine is sacrosanct and no other viewpoint can be tolerated?
Maybe they believe they can educate students to high standards of knowledge without teaching how to use the education for the betterment of all humanity and not for the greedy few?
Maybe they believe their social embellishes are paramount and anyone who cannot conform will not be stomached?
Maybe they believe science and technology can replace me with man-made theories.
Whatever the reason, I have found the few people who do allow me to guide their path, living with a simple smile and a non-involvement in normal social gossip, or one sided viewpoints, such as politics and world events with an authoritarian left or right slant, will not be tolerated.
Thankfully, I still have a few good friends who listen in silence to me and do not live in shallow minds.
They beam my smile at birth and a few carry it with them throughout their lives.
That is why joyful, gentle, kind-hearted mortals, inherit the sincere treasures of earth that no money can buy.
On the surface many people seem like they are not bothered by fresh, invigorating, inspirational viewpoints, however when that viewpoint contains authentic universal truths, intellectual/egotistical people will run miles away and for sure, keep their distance.
It seems if I, the only authentic, cosmic power in the universe, cannot fit in with a social tribal mentality, then I will be condemned to isolation by that group and replaced with a man-made ideology.
Funny thing is, some of the religious groups are theoretically textbook spiritual, however, I find their theology cannot be lived in a joy-filled mind... As if, their doctrine and dogma, can replace my love and joy.
Others are motivational life coaches, professors, or other professional experts who want to train their pupils to become catch-phrase-parrots so that they can find their pot of gold... As if, money and possessions can replace me?
Some are psychologists or medical groups who want to put band-aids on symptoms rather than curing the causes ... as if, humans can repair or sustain a body and mind better than I can?
Yes indeed, if I do not conform to people's beliefs and my blissfull, silent voice is not welcomed, then I cannot be accepted in any circle of society that wants it to be their way or the highway.
In every case, my high-way can be the conductor of life's enchanting orchestrations.
The ludicrous thing is, I have never fallen out with anyone and only desire the best of everything, for everybody.
Because human time passes by so fast, I would like to remind you that I continue to send blessings in the direction of all my friends on earth who are open to receive them. I abide in an infinite house of delight, filled with harmony and peace ... I send everyone love and joy from my eternal heart and ageless soul.
November 22, 2009
by Michael Levy
With the Holidays just around the corner, I thought God may have some message about how we humans are heading in the wrong direction.
Perhaps the message would be written on the lines of the following essay ... Enjoy!
A Message from God
for those with Open Hearts and Receptive Minds
As God almighty, who exists in multi-dimensional guises of intelligent energy, I am everyone's friend on earth, but most people no longer recognize me as their friend, so I guess I am not so mighty? ... Well, that is because it is not my intent to make anyone do what he or she does not want to do.
The old saying, a friend in need is a friend indeed, may still hold true for a few, but anyone who speaks authentic truths has become a little redundant in today's media driven world and are avoided like the plague.
People have grown far more fickle and if their well intended friend does not conform to their social standard lifestyle or way of thinking, the kind hearted friend becomes a fiendish irritation.
From my Divine experience, I can honestly say as an omnipresent, universal, evolving/creating God, that I have never lost a friend; however, many friends have lost my company ... more so in the last few thousand years, as I silently talk more freely about the genuine way to live life on earth.
I understand many of my earthly, human friends have their quirks and idiosyncrasies and I have learnt to play along with their perspectives whilst speaking universal, indisputable truth.
I speak in silent tones directed at the intelligence of human intuition, insights, feelings, etc...All outside the intellects/egos grasp, however not outside its reach and understanding.
Unfortunately, because of humans religious beliefs, superior education, scientific knowledge or social standing, they perceive my simplicity is not to their sophisticated liking and their opinions can no longer associate themselves with me as their God without any labels.
I am the first to admit my cup of simplicity runneth over and in the eyes of sophisticated people, who consider themselves to be clever in some way or other, that just will not fit into the image of who they believe themselves to be... That is why they have vanquished themselves from my paradise.
Maybe they believe their doctrine is sacrosanct and no other viewpoint can be tolerated?
Maybe they believe they can educate students to high standards of knowledge without teaching how to use the education for the betterment of all humanity and not for the greedy few?
Maybe they believe their social embellishes are paramount and anyone who cannot conform will not be stomached?
Maybe they believe science and technology can replace me with man-made theories.
Whatever the reason, I have found the few people who do allow me to guide their path, living with a simple smile and a non-involvement in normal social gossip, or one sided viewpoints, such as politics and world events with an authoritarian left or right slant, will not be tolerated.
Thankfully, I still have a few good friends who listen in silence to me and do not live in shallow minds.
They beam my smile at birth and a few carry it with them throughout their lives.
That is why joyful, gentle, kind-hearted mortals, inherit the sincere treasures of earth that no money can buy.
On the surface many people seem like they are not bothered by fresh, invigorating, inspirational viewpoints, however when that viewpoint contains authentic universal truths, intellectual/egotistical people will run miles away and for sure, keep their distance.
It seems if I, the only authentic, cosmic power in the universe, cannot fit in with a social tribal mentality, then I will be condemned to isolation by that group and replaced with a man-made ideology.
Funny thing is, some of the religious groups are theoretically textbook spiritual, however, I find their theology cannot be lived in a joy-filled mind... As if, their doctrine and dogma, can replace my love and joy.
Others are motivational life coaches, professors, or other professional experts who want to train their pupils to become catch-phrase-parrots so that they can find their pot of gold... As if, money and possessions can replace me?
Some are psychologists or medical groups who want to put band-aids on symptoms rather than curing the causes ... as if, humans can repair or sustain a body and mind better than I can?
Yes indeed, if I do not conform to people's beliefs and my blissfull, silent voice is not welcomed, then I cannot be accepted in any circle of society that wants it to be their way or the highway.
In every case, my high-way can be the conductor of life's enchanting orchestrations.
The ludicrous thing is, I have never fallen out with anyone and only desire the best of everything, for everybody.
Because human time passes by so fast, I would like to remind you that I continue to send blessings in the direction of all my friends on earth who are open to receive them. I abide in an infinite house of delight, filled with harmony and peace ... I send everyone love and joy from my eternal heart and ageless soul.
November 22, 2009
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
God has given man not only a body, but also a soul through which he can come into contact with his Creator. But whereas the body, like the rest of nature, is bound to obey the laws of God, the soul is free to follow God's guidance or to reject it. The soul's development lies in willingly following the guidance God has revealed through His prophets.
According to the Quran, each person's soul is "God's Spirit" which has been breathed into him or her (32:9). This means that man's soul has a special relationship with God, and man is capable of emulating the Divine attributes on his own small scale. God is unimaginably near to man's soul, nearer to it than even man himself. He knows a person's innermost thoughts, even those which the person himself does not consciously realize. In man's soul there is implanted love for God and yearning after God, and it cannot find complete contentment without God. (See, for example, the following verses of the Holy Quran for these ideas: 50:16; 56:85; 20:7; 2:165; 5:119; 89:27-30.)
sheza i dont want you to believe that god is IMAM or RASOOL as it is nothing but pure shirkh, god is god [ the infinite ] , if you think god is nothing then god is nothing for you...if you think god is your friend then god is your friend.
but thats only our imagination, since human brain has some logical limits we have a very limited knowledge about allah[swt]
but a wise human being will see the creation, the beauty of nature, apart from that his/her own body and say GOD it truely merciful.
you are free to believe whatever you want , its just my opinion
Your God is one God. There is no Gobut He. He is the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful. Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of night and day; in the ships that sail the ocean with cargoes beneficial; in the water, Allah sends down from the clouds and with which He revives the dead earth and with which He dispersed over it all kinds of animals; in the movement of winds and in the clouds that are driven between the earth and the sky surely are signs for men of understanding. (2:163-164)
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. (6:103)
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord addressed him, he said: Lord give me the ability to observe that I may look upon thee. The Lord said: By no means can you see Me. But look upon the mount. If it abides in its place, you shall be able to see Me. When His Lord manifested His glory on the mount it was crushed to pieces and Moses became unconscious. When he recovered his senses he said: Glory be to you! To you I turn in repentance and I am the first to believe. (7:143)
since we are not at the status of prophethood we human beings in no way have the capacity to see allah[swt] and thus precieve that allah is the noor hidden in imam or rasool blah blah blah
allah created us not for the sake of fun or for some imam[as]/mullah or rasool[saw], infact he created rasool[saw]/imam[as] for us so that we should be guided, he created us so as to see who follows azazil[satan] and who follows quran
this is just my opinion ,its does not represent ismaili belief or any other sect of islam
thank you
salam
yaa ali madad
According to the Quran, each person's soul is "God's Spirit" which has been breathed into him or her (32:9). This means that man's soul has a special relationship with God, and man is capable of emulating the Divine attributes on his own small scale. God is unimaginably near to man's soul, nearer to it than even man himself. He knows a person's innermost thoughts, even those which the person himself does not consciously realize. In man's soul there is implanted love for God and yearning after God, and it cannot find complete contentment without God. (See, for example, the following verses of the Holy Quran for these ideas: 50:16; 56:85; 20:7; 2:165; 5:119; 89:27-30.)
sheza i dont want you to believe that god is IMAM or RASOOL as it is nothing but pure shirkh, god is god [ the infinite ] , if you think god is nothing then god is nothing for you...if you think god is your friend then god is your friend.
but thats only our imagination, since human brain has some logical limits we have a very limited knowledge about allah[swt]
but a wise human being will see the creation, the beauty of nature, apart from that his/her own body and say GOD it truely merciful.
you are free to believe whatever you want , its just my opinion
Your God is one God. There is no Gobut He. He is the Most Gracious, the Ever Merciful. Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of night and day; in the ships that sail the ocean with cargoes beneficial; in the water, Allah sends down from the clouds and with which He revives the dead earth and with which He dispersed over it all kinds of animals; in the movement of winds and in the clouds that are driven between the earth and the sky surely are signs for men of understanding. (2:163-164)
No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. (6:103)
When Moses came to the place appointed by Us and his Lord addressed him, he said: Lord give me the ability to observe that I may look upon thee. The Lord said: By no means can you see Me. But look upon the mount. If it abides in its place, you shall be able to see Me. When His Lord manifested His glory on the mount it was crushed to pieces and Moses became unconscious. When he recovered his senses he said: Glory be to you! To you I turn in repentance and I am the first to believe. (7:143)
since we are not at the status of prophethood we human beings in no way have the capacity to see allah[swt] and thus precieve that allah is the noor hidden in imam or rasool blah blah blah
allah created us not for the sake of fun or for some imam[as]/mullah or rasool[saw], infact he created rasool[saw]/imam[as] for us so that we should be guided, he created us so as to see who follows azazil[satan] and who follows quran
this is just my opinion ,its does not represent ismaili belief or any other sect of islam
thank you
salam
yaa ali madad
i dont know if you will agree with me but that sounds like either:shiraz.virani wrote: allah created us not for the sake of fun or for some imam[as]/mullah or rasool[saw], infact he created rasool[saw]/imam[as] for us so that we should be guided, he created us so as to see who follows azazil[satan] and who follows quran
1. He wanted to have fun (after all he created satan aswell) to see who wins him or satan
2. How could he not already know...since he is all knowing and closer to us than our thoughts/souls as you said.
the reason for creation i think is one of those questions thats also answered by statements like: Allah knows best and our intellects are limited so talking about it is a waste of time...
Sheza
Allah has no time for such things as you suggest...did HE create Iblis? or
did Iblis create himself by being disobedient and refusing to bow down before Adam when asked to do so? frankly that is the end result of all disobedient beings - they come from the loins of Iblis !
"And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then..." (Sura al Zilzal)
"And whoso amongst you becometh an apostate and dieth in his disbelief, such are they whose works are NULLIFIED both in this world and the Hereafter.Such are the rightful owners of the FIRE, abiding therein.." (Sura al Baqara)
God has no time for fun as you so felicitous claim....though you can say what you like...
Human free will is a self evident reality and the conscious of each person bears testimony to his own ability to decide whether to perform or to abstain from a given action and if this is was denied then no axiomatic truth would remain valid as then the dictates of religion would be vain and futile and the religious commands and prohibitions, promises, threats, rewards and punishments would all be utterly meaningless....so God is not playing any fun games...."Verily We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving..."
rather man has been given the rope - use it to your advantage or hang yourselves ! It is not fun !
Allah has no time for such things as you suggest...did HE create Iblis? or
did Iblis create himself by being disobedient and refusing to bow down before Adam when asked to do so? frankly that is the end result of all disobedient beings - they come from the loins of Iblis !
"And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then..." (Sura al Zilzal)
"And whoso amongst you becometh an apostate and dieth in his disbelief, such are they whose works are NULLIFIED both in this world and the Hereafter.Such are the rightful owners of the FIRE, abiding therein.." (Sura al Baqara)
God has no time for fun as you so felicitous claim....though you can say what you like...
Human free will is a self evident reality and the conscious of each person bears testimony to his own ability to decide whether to perform or to abstain from a given action and if this is was denied then no axiomatic truth would remain valid as then the dictates of religion would be vain and futile and the religious commands and prohibitions, promises, threats, rewards and punishments would all be utterly meaningless....so God is not playing any fun games...."Verily We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving..."
rather man has been given the rope - use it to your advantage or hang yourselves ! It is not fun !
I didnt claim anything i humbly asked your opinion, why are you getting so aggressive, if you dont want to have this debate its ok. If you are going to respond look at what Ive written atleast, try to control your emotions and have a decent debate.znanwalla wrote:Sheza
God has no time for fun as you so felicitous claim....though you can say what you like...
so Your answer is he did not do it for his amusement, or you dont know or can not guess why he created the univerese. thats ok. its ok if you dont have answers to everything nothing to be ashamed of.
one explanation for this that i did find is that since god is the creator he had to create(otherwise he/we couldnt call him the creator) i dont know doesnt make too much sense to me sounds just like semantics.
and as for free will if you beleive in the traditional tri-omni god as all muslims do, its debatable if there is such a thing:
“And God created you all and whatever you do.” (Quran 37:96)
Unfortunately many are unable to differentiate between the top and the bottom of the BOOK ! at best they tend to read it upside down !
037.095
YUSUFALI: He said: "Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?
PICKTHAL: He said: Worship ye that which ye yourselves do carve
SHAKIR: Said he: What! do you worship what you hew out?
037.096
YUSUFALI: "But Allah has created you and your handwork!"
PICKTHAL: When Allah hath created you and what ye make?
SHAKIR: And Allah has created you and what you make.
Verse 95 explains the context of verse 96 ! and I have quoted THREE Narrators who are well known....
Let us now look at your home made translation...“And God created you all and whatever you do.” (Quran 37:96)....grossly misleading !
Pagans used to CARVE their own IDOLS and then worship them but Allah is simply saying to them that their Idols have no power and cannot help them....
037.095
YUSUFALI: He said: "Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?
PICKTHAL: He said: Worship ye that which ye yourselves do carve
SHAKIR: Said he: What! do you worship what you hew out?
037.096
YUSUFALI: "But Allah has created you and your handwork!"
PICKTHAL: When Allah hath created you and what ye make?
SHAKIR: And Allah has created you and what you make.
Verse 95 explains the context of verse 96 ! and I have quoted THREE Narrators who are well known....
Let us now look at your home made translation...“And God created you all and whatever you do.” (Quran 37:96)....grossly misleading !
Pagans used to CARVE their own IDOLS and then worship them but Allah is simply saying to them that their Idols have no power and cannot help them....