Sultan Muhammad Shah & Twelver Faith

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:11 pm

Ya Ali Madat everyone,

Before I begin, I would like to let everyone know that I am a devoted Ismaili and am married to an ithnashari. I am asking these questions because there are certain things I have learnt by reading the posts on this forum over the past few years, and I believe that it is important for me to develop a clear-cut logical answers in case I am ever encountered by an ithnashari who is demanding answers to the same question I ask you today.

I have read many times SMS's farmans advising Ismailis to stay away from individuals of the twelver faith and accordingly, not to participate in Moharrum ceremonies. I understand that the Imam of that time had some political hardships with this group and that the group was on somewhat of a "converting spree" with the Ismailis.

Also, the Imam predicted that the faith would not exist after 100 years, and yet the faith still exists today and is growing.

My question to you is ...

A) Does Hazar Imam hold the same views as the previous Imam? More specifically - does he himself disagree with the observation of the month of Muharrum (not talking about Matham... but asking about remembering Mowlana Hussain's sacrifice as well as reflecting back on the sacrifices of all of our other Imams)?

B) As an Ismaili, can I participate with my husband in reflecting on the stories of our Imams (not Matham, because I don't necessarily agree with it on a personal level.. but I am just talking about learning about the sacrifices of our Imams)?

C) Regarding Mowlana SMS's prediction - how would anyone answer to this? This was a prediction that has gone wrong. The only logical answer that I can come up with (given my assumption) is that the prediction was not correctly interpreted/quoted???

Thank you!

Post by **Admin** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:47 pm

Build bridges but do not cross them at the expense of your faith. This is what comes from the position of the current Imam.

As for the question about 100 years, this looks like a figure of speech when you say in 100 years this will not be there in the sense at some point in the future it will not be there.

I am not sure about your assessment that the Ithnashri faith is increasing in number, where does it come from? or is it that it increase with the general trend of the population to increase regardless of the faith?

Hazar Imam was asked if his aim was to increase the number of Ismailis during his Imamat and he replied absolutely not!

That says a lot about the debate of quality versus quantity.

About Mohram, the question does not arise as in Ismailism we have a Manifest Imam. As per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, many of the stories recited during Mohram are not true. Though the events of Karbala was not acceptable by any standard.

But what is the benefit of crying on one Imam when we have a Manifest light with us, as Mowlana Aga Ali Shah said, ... so why recite Qisas and cry?

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:52 pm

Thank you for your response, Admin.

But I am looking for a more specific answer... what is the "expense" in my scenario? Is there anything wrong in reflecting back on the sacrifices of our past Imams? On one level, Hazar Imam has mentioned that whenever we are in trouble or worry, we should take a tasbih and call upon the names of any of our Imams (AS), Prophet Muhammad (AS) and Mowlana Ali (AS). So what does that imply?

Does anyone have any other answers?

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:54 pm

Admin wrote:Build bridges but do not cross them at the expense of your faith. This is what comes from the position of the current Imam.

As for the question about 100 years, this looks like a figure of speech when you say in 100 years this will not be there in the sense at some point in the future it will not be there.

I am not sure about your assessment that the Ithnashri faith is increasing in number, where does it come from? or is it that it increase with the general trend of the population to increase regardless of the faith?

Hazar Imam was asked if his aim was to increase the number of Ismailis during his Imamat and he replied absolutely not!

That says a lot about the debate of quality versus quantity.

Thank you for the elaboration.

But the point of the question was not to probe into how Mowlana SMS came up with the number of years, or to discuss the growth / size of either to Ismaili or Twelver community. The reason I mentioned it was because the Imam had made a prediction that the faith would be wiped out completely within an x number of years; however, the faith has not been wiped out and there are still a large number of twelvers in the world.

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:32 pm

Dear Inquisitive Girl

Firstly, the Imam SMS farmans concerning Ithna Asharies were given in a specific context where a number of Ismailis khoja families left the Ismaili Jamat and tried to take a large number of Ismailis with them.

These families were also supporting the Haji Bibi case where the Imam's relative tried to gain rights to the property and dasond money of the Imamat.

The prediction of Imam SMS said "after 100 years". it did not say "in exactly 100 years". So this means that the decline of the Twelver faith will begin 100 years after 1899. So the countdown has now begun!

I see no problem with you participating with your husband in remembering the lives of the Imams - but always remember that the true line of Imams goes through Imam Isma'il ibn Ja'far and not Musa Kazim. Sometimes they commemorate the lives of the latter Twelver imams whom we do not accept as Imams.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:49 pm

kandani wrote:Dear Inquisitive Girl

Firstly, the Imam SMS farmans concerning Ithna Asharies were given in a specific context where a number of Ismailis khoja families left the Ismaili Jamat and tried to take a large number of Ismailis with them.

These families were also supporting the Haji Bibi case where the Imam's relative tried to gain rights to the property and dasond money of the Imamat.

The prediction of Imam SMS said "after 100 years". it did not say "in exactly 100 years". So this means that the decline of the Twelver faith will begin 100 years after 1899. So the countdown has now begun!

I see no problem with you participating with your husband in remembering the lives of the Imams - but always remember that the true line of Imams goes through Imam Isma'il ibn Ja'far and not Musa Kazim. Sometimes they commemorate the lives of the latter Twelver imams whom we do not accept as Imams.

And they mourn the death of the Imams - which in the Ismaili Faith is not permissible or acceptable - because we say Haizinda/Kayam Paya - i.e. Ya Hayyul Qayyum - the Ever Living. the Eternal.

Shams

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:14 pm

"................The world,- according to that doctrine-can never remain without an Imam as otherwise it will instantly collapse. If an Imam dies without a son as his successor, it can only mean that not only he personally, but the whole line of his ancestors were not the true Imams. Thus the discontinuation of the line of Twelvers proved that at least the last several of them were not genuine. This being so, one obviously had to look back to the occasion on which a disputed on the succession had taken place........."

Reference: BOOK "Brief Survery of the Evolution of Ismailsm" PAGE:8.... BY: W.Ivanow----1952

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:45 am

More on the month of Muharram at:

Rites and Ceremonies --> Month of Mohaaram

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ht=moharam

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:58 am

Inquisitive .....the answer to the question you raise also lies in the quran if you have been reading it...." UNTO God belong the Most Beautiful names...so SUPPLICATE HIM by means of them..." (Sura al Ar'af Verse 180)....resorting to the Du'a of a Righteous Soul, the one of the most lofty kind offers the scope for TAWASSUL...in doing this man is able to grasp the reality of his or her own slavehood and comes closer to Allah and Allah ordains that ..." O ye who believe, be mindful of your duty to God and SEEK the means (al-wasila) of APPROACHING HIM and strive in HIS way in order that ye may succeed..." (Sura al Ma'ida)....

As for remembering the awful tragedy of Kerbala, we certainly do this for indeed this was an unforgettable historical event....the Imam's MYFLAG carries the RED colour with the GREEN....the RED as far as I believe signiies the Holy Blood of our Imam...the Green signifies PEACE and is the Prophet's colour....

We do not make any distinctions nor do we distinguish between or amongst our Imams in a physical sense, so to speak ! We are not allowed to do this as this would be Idol worshipping, if you will....what we follow is the Nur e Imamah....the current is the same....the bulbs may change overtime....w have been told to hold fast unto the ROPE...not the knots itself, if I may say so.....

We love and revere the Imams ! but we do not worship any physical forms !

"AND Trust in the LIVING One who dieth NOT..." (Sura al Furqan-Verse 58)

and regarding the martyrs, Allah says..." And call not those who are slain in the way of God "dead". NAY, they are LIVING, only ye perceive NOT..." Sura al Baqara)

Just to be analogous, if your father is "alive" would you do matam and mourn him? ....Husayn was Ali ! Zainul Abeeden was Ali ! and Shah Karim al Husayni is also Ali.....it is only Ali ...this is Imamah !

At least this is what I believe....right or wrong ! but I hope it helps you if it does....and if it doesn't then all I can say is ..."Allah guides unto HIS NOOR whomsoever HE Wills..."

If the Murshid says...'soak your prayer mat in alchohol and say your prayers on them....then do it for that is obedience to the Olil Amr...."and you will surely be tested in yourself and in your possessions.."

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:48 am

znanwalla wrote:
We do not make any distinctions nor do we distinguish between or amongst our Imams in a physical sense, so to speak ! We are not allowed to do this as this would be Idol worshipping, if you will....what we follow is the Nur e Imamah....the current is the same....the bulbs may change overtime....w have been told to hold fast unto the ROPE...not the knots itself, if I may say so.....

We love and revere the Imams ! but we do not worship any physical forms !

Thank you znanwalla and everyone else for your responses.

Hazar Imam advises us that we can call upon Mowlana Ali's, Prophet Muhammad's names as well as any of the Imam's names, as a form of tasbih. So in regards to your above statement, would this be "idol worshipping?" I really do not see remembering our previous Imams as a form as shirk as remembering them and their life stories could reveal important moral lessons in life.

I really love my faith and our beloved Hazar Imam, but I feel that our community members sometimes lose sight of our entire religion as a whole. The history is just as important as the present as it is what has brought us here today. Remembering our history will explain to us why/how things are practiced today.

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:10 am

I sincerely hope you can distinguish between "physical forms" and the Nur e Imamah that we all pursue....the physical forms are from the Creative attribute of Allah and so for an "appointed" term...the Nur e Imamah itself is from HIS Dhat or essence and thus eternal.

Our Imam has told us repeatedly that we have to submit to Allah S.W.T. every minute we have free during the day....that is what you are referring to... You will find this in Sura LXXIII 7-9:

"True there is for thee by day prolonged occupation with ordinary duties: But keep in remembrance The name of Thy Lord and devote thyself to Him wholeheartedly. He is the Lord of the East ad the West: there is no God but He: Take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs."

As Shias we believe in Imam jafar As-Sadiq who has told us "ALLah is prayed through us, Imams". All Shias, including Ithanasheris and Bohoras are mandated to pray to Allah S.W.T. through their Imams.

For all Shias, Walaya of the Imam is a fundamental pillar and the Shias believe that without Walaya of the Imam all the other Pillars are incomplete.

At other places in the HQ the believers are told to say "tasbeeh" (hymn)..."hamd" (praise)....."du'a (begging) and to do Zikr (remembrance) in the morning and in the evening and in the night. ....so this remembrance is part of ZIKR, using a variety of the Jalali names...now this level is not the same as how one would remember say his or her own parent as I do not think our relationship with the Imam is physical.....how does he address us? this should answer your question.

Yes! people do err....nobody is perfect as perfection is only Allah's attribute and we should not worry as much about what others are doing or not doing....as this then may unduly distract you in your own search for the truth ! good luck !

AmarS · Post by **AmarS** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:00 pm

Dear InquisitiveGirl,

You sound like an intelligent and level headed person. I also applaud your husband who has allowed you to follow your faith with such devotion to your Imam. In an inter-marriage or any marriage the support of your spouse is very important.

I believe you should support your husband by attending the Ithana’Asheri events to show your support and respect for his faith.

Do not look back at the history which is not relevant to the present generation. We have moved on and so have the Ithna’Asheris.

Our Imam desires unity within Ummah and with all other faiths. He has repeatedly emphasized tolerance and respect for other faiths and beliefs.

Ismailis do not have Imamat Day celebrations (dandias and sagdi dham) or Saligrah celebrations if they fall during the month of Mohorram. We are also asked not to have parties, weddings etc. during that month, out of respect for our Ithna’Asheri brothers sentiments for this month.

Ismailis do not observe these events because they were never observed during Ismaili history (of our previous Imams).

Bohoras, who are part of Ismailis have only recently started practicing purjosh matam. They, like Nizari Ismailis are forbidden to view the procession of Tazieh, by their Dais.

These Mohorram events have occurred only since last 300 years. Karen Armstrong writes in her book on Islam:

Muhammad Baqir Majlisi (d.1700) became one of the most influential ulama of all time, but he displayed a new Shii bigotry. He tried to suppress the teaching of Falsafah and mysticism (irfan) in Isfahan, and mercilessly persecuted the remaining Sufis. Henceforth, he was able to insist, the ulama should concentrate on fiqh...

Majlisi introduced into Iranian Shiism a distrust of mysticism and philosophy that is still prevalent today.

To replace the old Sufi devotion, such as the communal dhikr and the cult of Sufi saints, Majlisi promoted mourning rituals in honour of Hussain, the martyr of Kerbala, to teach the populace the values and piety of the Shiah. There were elaborate processions, and highly emotional dirges were sung, while the people wailed and cried alound.

These rites became a major Iranian instituion. During the eighteenth century the taziyeh, a passion play depicting the Kerbala tragedy, was developed , in which the people were not passive spectators, but provided the emotional response, weeping and beating their breasts, and joining their own sorrows to the suffering of Imam Husain…..

But Majlisi and Shahs were careful to suppress the revolutionary potential of these rites. Instead of protesting against tyranny at home, the people were taught to inveigh against Sunni Islam.

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:38 am

Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

The greatest part about the Ismaili faith is that we have a physical Imam whom we can see and interact with. Surely, there may be many faiths who have their own representatives, but our Imam’s actions and words are reliable and comforting. It is hard to contradict him because his thoughts are always to the point, logical, and full of reason. Most people will agree with that.

We are a faith just like Christianity and Judaism, and we should be proud of that. Proud to hold up the Ismaili flag in public and say to non-Ismailis that I am an Ismaili and I follow the Aga Khan. That sense of pride is missing. It’s played down. It’s not as strong as we need it to be.

When Hazer Imam comes for Padhramni we should make every effort to celebrate with pride, and show the population at large that we are proud of who we are. For example, there used to be a time when we would place our hands together in a sign of worship when the Imam walks by. Now, we keep our hands down, folded together. What is wrong with being proud to worship him? What are we scared of? If the Christians are not embarrassed to tell you that a fat man from the north pole, who never dies, flies around the world in one night and climbs down each and every chimney to leave untold amount of presents without paying taxes then why are we embarrassed to worship the way we want?

Too many Ismailis are celebrating Christmas at home, with family or friends. This has got to stop. It is embarrassing. We are not Christians, nor do we have anything to do with Christmas. Our special days are Kushali (Hazer Imam’s birthday), Imamat Day, and Navroz. We should honour our holidays just as the Jews honour Hanikah.

This brings up the topic of Mohorram. Mohorram is a tragic reminder of a painful event in history which unfortunately resulted in a shameful act of beheading an Imam. But there are many intelligent people on this board who recognize that history has been full of tragic events. Imam Khalliahali was also murdered, why not celebrate that? Imam Hakim bi Amrillah was murdered, why don’t we acknowledge that? How about Imam Nizar who was left to die in prison while his son, Imam Hadi, fled Cairo for the Elburz mountains? The list goes on and on, so Mohrram is nothing new as far as tragedies are concerned. Some may say that the events of Kerbala were important because it saved Islam. Yes, it did, but who was the one who paid the price? Imam. And it has always been the case, so that is a history which is long over.

Ithnasheris acknowledge Mohorram because they don’t have anything else to do. Just as the Christians celebrate Christmas because Christ is nowhere to be found, similarly the Ishnasheris acknowledge the month of Mohorram because Mehdi is nowhere to be found. You have to do something to keep the funding going. This is one way the faith can breathe in new life. New life into something that is simply going in circles.

The Jews said that the Messiah is going to come, but Christ came and they didn’t accept him. The Ithnasheris say that Mehdi is going to come, but just like Christ the Imam Mehdi already came but they didn’t accept him. So why cry over spilled milk? Leave the past and concentrate on the present. Now so many years have gone by and in that time so many people died without seeing Chirst or Mehdi, what about them? Is it fair that they will not be blessed with seeing the return of the Lord?

We should celebrate the Imam’s birthday, Imamat day, and Navroz with full celebrations and happiness. Forget about the Ishnasheries, they have their own faith, we have ours. We are not parading in the street openly mocking Ishnasheris. We are just celebrating our own beliefs. You don’t see the Christians saying that they should put Christmas on hold because of respect for the Ishnasheries. You don’t see the Jews paying respect to the Ishnasheries. You don’t even see the Sunni Muslims saying we should not celebrate Idd because of the Ishnasheris. So why are we Ismailis acting backwards when the whole world is doing what they want.

When is the last time Ishnasheries paid respect to Imamat Day or the Imam’s birthday? When is the last time an Ishnasheri said we are going to celebrate Kushali on December 13th out of respect for our Ismaili brothers? So then why are we bending when nobody else is doing so? That is simply wrong.

We should celebrate Kushali on exactly December 13th and Imamat day exactly on July 11th. We should collectively take time off from work and teach our children one week, two weeks, of how Ismailis celebrate their holidays exactly how the Christians do it. We need to teach them that we are legitimately proud of our Imam. So what if we lose a buck or two, tell the employer that they cannot penalize you for observing your religious rights. Take two weeks off from work and tell your family to get together. Bring gifts, sing songs, dance, party, and have a good time. Eat special Kushali food that night and wake up the next day sick and disoriented. Be proud, be energetic about your faith. Reject the Christmas hype and begin to instil pride into your own ways. That will be good for us as a whole and especially good for our children.

With regards to my spiritual sister’s questions it seems the members of this board handled each question very well. I would just like her to know that marrying an Ithasheri is perfectly fine, and I wish the both of you well. Since you did address the members of this board I would like to comment on a few points which you brought up.

First of all, being married to a non-Ismaili is perfectly fine. But at some point you will have issues with regards to faith. I strongly suggest you let him know the similarities between the Ithnasherism and Ismailism. Both faiths are Shia of Ali, in other words they accept the legitimacy of Ali. But you know that your faith is quite different in many respects as well. While Ali is the friend of Allah for Ithnasheris the Pirs have taken a complete turn and have presented to us that Ali is Allah himself. In other words, Ali sahi Allah (Ali is truly Allah).

Being married both spouses tend to reach a point where they respect each other’s faith and even participate in each other’s rituals. That is healthy and will keep you strong. But this cannot be a pattern which remains positive all the time. There will be conflicts, there will be difference of opinion, and if you are not grounded in the issues of your faith then it will be very difficult to present them accurately to your husband.

I am pretty sure issues did come up and that is why you came on to this board. That was a first step for you in the right direction. There are many individuals here who would take their time and effort to help Ismailis such as yourself in answering difficult questions. But I still feel that you will eventually need to make a choice between your faith and the faith of your husband. It doesn’t sound very nice to say, but I’m telling you the truth because I feel you should know very openly what it can be like. None of us are here to dig into your personal space, but we wish to help you the best way we can.

In the long run you have to decide if you’re going to convert your husband to the Ismaili faith. It is a difficult proposition, but one that I believe you will find very reassuring for the future of your relationship. Sometimes people try to avoid conflict and have a relationship which doesn’t “step on each other’s shoes,” but that is not the correct way to deal with faith. This could go three ways. First, you and your husband can continue to have separate faiths and continue respecting each other’s views. Second, you can convert your husband to Ismailism and both of you can practice together. Third, you can convert to Ithnasherism and join his faith.

It’s not a pretty picture, but the truth is that you’re in that situation and it gets further complicated if you have children. Tell your husband to talk with you about the Ismaili faith and see where it takes you. If he decides to become Ismaili then you have done a magnificent job. I would sincerely recommend it because that way both of you can practice one faith openly and in comfort.

With regards to Hazer Imam having different viewpoints than Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah that is a good question. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was not the only one who had problems, it was the entire jamat which splintered as a result of Ishnasherism. These Ishnasheri Khojas caused a lot of hardship for the Imam and that is why we as the jamat had a very bitter relationship with them. Along with that, many individuals started practicing, and still practice, Ithnasherism which grossly contradicts our own practices. Many old pictures will reveal ladies who wore hijabs, particularly black. In Zanzibar they still have a box at the back of jamat khane which was meant to put money in for Hazarat Abaas. This got out of hand and eventually we became no different from the mainstream Ithnasheries.

At that time groups of individuals started building a new khane in Zanzibar and along with that they harassed Ismailis economically and morally. Imam had to put an end to this because the simple fact is that we are not Shia Ithnasheries. Our interpretation of events are completely different. He had to put in strict measures because Khojas didn’t want to leave the Ithnasheri way and it impacted the concept of dasond and centrality of Imamat. Many Ismailis married Ithnasheries and the jamat became sympathetic to Ithnasheri ways. This confused the next generation which didn’t know how to identify themselves.

Tough measures had to be put in place and thanks to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah we have our own unique identity, our own jamat khanes, our own constitution, and our own concept of Imamat. That centrality was so important that he had to speak to us directly about the situation, even though it seemed harsh. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was right; the Ithnasheries were our enemies, but over time we have learned to build bridges and move on. That doesn’t mean the Imam was wrong.

Participating with your husband is a wonderful way to share your commitment to his faith, but remember that he has to understand your faith as well. This has to be two ways or else there is something wrong. You now have to reason with him with regards to your faith and show how the continuation of Imamat still exists and is flourishing. That is the main difference between you two. It is not the rituals which divide you, it is the question of Imamat. In his case the Imamat is in hiding, and perhaps will continue to hide for the rest of your marriage. Now, your case is different because you Imam is present and living. If the two of you cannot see eye to eye on this fundamental premise then nothing else will work. This issue is yours to handle.

With regards to predictions, the Imam at that time said something which has its own context. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, it means we have to understand why he said it. If you read it carefully, the Imam was talking about Ithnasherism based on the people who were being difficult. It was an offshoot to previous problems in the Aga Khan case of 1866. It is true that a hundred years from then there is no conflict, as it used to be, and we have moved on. We are now at a new phase of building bridges which didn’t exist a hundred years ago. There are many Ithnasheri Khojas which understand our faith and our history more than ever.

You mentioned about reciting tasbih and the names of the Imams. You are right, the Imam did mention that we should. But try not to take that to mean that Imams of Kerbala and Siffin are the only ones he means. If you’re going to remember Ali or Hussien then you have to remember Ismail and Khalillahali, so that is not what he meant. Reciting the names of Ali, Allah, and Imams is a prayer which is personal to your faith, don’t mix it up with learning their life stories.

Since you mentioned learning about previous Imams and their life stories, it seems you are already looking for ways to legitimize a connection between the faith of your husband and yourself. I am happy that you love your faith and Hazer Imam, keep that with you always, but now it is up to you to give your husband a gift which is greater than anything you can ever give him.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

hunzai99 · Post by **hunzai99** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:49 am

samirnoorali wrote:Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

First of all, being married to a non-Ismaili is perfectly fine. But at some point you will have issues with regards to faith. I strongly suggest you let him know the similarities between the Ithnasherism and Ismailism. Both faiths are Shia of Ali, in other words they accept the legitimacy of Ali. But you know that your faith is quite different in many respects as well. While Ali is the friend of Allah for Ithnasheris the Pirs have taken a complete turn and have presented to us that Ali is Allah himself. In other words, Ali sahi Allah (Ali is truly Allah).

While going through the most recent version of "Nikkah Text" that was outlined by HI, what I deduced was that ...its not fine to get married to people from other faith!

Logically if we analyse the dynamics of faith and Love-basis of marriage- its the faith wich has more weight in an individuals life, and this weight of faith keeps on increasing as we grow older because only then we take religion more seriously and the Love factor loses its charm gradually.

So what I feel is in such scenarios Conflicts DO arise and tend to terribly Harm the marital life which ultimately disrupts the family. Especially when it comes to the question of faith of their children, Because each parent would like his/her childrent to be part of his/her faith.
what they do in such case.. Eigther one of the them will have to compromise OR let thier children go Any way or No way!!! this seems really awkward practically.

Therefore in my view its not perfectly OK to get married to someone who is not ready to convert to OUR faith.

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:16 pm

Hunzai99 and Samirnoorali, I thank you for sharing your thoughts.

But I feel that you need to get out of the dogmatic mind frame that you live in. Ismailism is not a cookie-cutter solution of religion - and that is the BEAUTY of it. Look at how we can accommodate so many cultures of ways of practicing faith into one folder. Plurality and diversity are our strength, and please keep that in mind when presented with issues like the one I have brought about to you.

You begin your discussions about Ismaili Pride and how we Ismailis should not hide our faces. Completely irrelevant to my question.

Secondly, you are giving me relationship advice (to convert/have husband convert) - something which I did not ask you for!

Hazar Imam visited the non-ismaili individuals which were present at the most recent didar, mentioning to them that nobody needs to convert in an "inter-faith" (or "INTRA faith) marriage.

What I want to know are our CURRENT Imam's thoughts about these things.

I particularly asked for PRECISE concrete answers. I don't want to hear this Ismaili pride stuff that you constantly speak of. I am proud of my faith and I feel (but only Hazar Imam knows) I have a strong affinity to it. I only wanted some logical explanations.

Thank you.

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:20 pm

samirnoorali wrote:Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

The greatest part about the Ismaili faith is that we have a physical Imam whom we can see and interact with. Surely, there may be many faiths who have their own representatives, but our Imam’s actions and words are reliable and comforting. It is hard to contradict him because his thoughts are always to the point, logical, and full of reason. Most people will agree with that.

We are a faith just like Christianity and Judaism, and we should be proud of that. Proud to hold up the Ismaili flag in public and say to non-Ismailis that I am an Ismaili and I follow the Aga Khan. That sense of pride is missing. It’s played down. It’s not as strong as we need it to be.
Samir Noorali

samirnoorali, I have plenty of issues with everything you mentioned. And do not have time negate all of your statements. But PLEASE be careful in posting such statements publicly as you are misrepresenting our community's agenda.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:38 pm

InquisitiveGirl wrote:
samirnoorali wrote:Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

We are a faith just like Christianity and Judaism, and we should be proud of that. Proud to hold up the Ismaili flag in public and say to non-Ismailis that I am an Ismaili and I follow the Aga Khan. That sense of pride is missing. It’s played down. It’s not as strong as we need it to be.
Sincerely,

Samir Noorali
samirnoorali, I have plenty of issues with everything you mentioned. And do not have time negate all of your statements. But PLEASE be careful in posting such statements publicly as you are misrepresenting our community's agenda.

That is your opinion..and you're welcome to it.

Samir has his opinion and he's welcome to it.

That is the beauty of our faith - pluralistic.

Shams

InquisitiveGirl · Post by **InquisitiveGirl** » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:48 pm

point taken, shams! lol

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:57 am

In his book Zahr al-ma'ani, Idris Imad ad-Din mentions many sayings attributed to 'Ali, as well the other Imams.

He says relating from Jabir ibn 'Abdallah al-Ansari:

"I was sitting once in the presence of the Commander of the Faithful 'Ali ibn Abi Talib, Peace be on him, when there entered Salman and Jundub (Abu Dharr al-Ghifari), may God be satisfied with them.

They greeted and sat down. Ali said, 'You are welcome, you, who both are faithful (wali) and sincere, and who promised their God to remain so.

Verily this is necessary for every faithful (mu'min), for no one will accomplish his faith until he recognizes me really in my Luminous Substance.

If he only knows me in this way, his heart will be tested by God as to the strength of his faith, and he will be content; thus he will become one knowing and seeing.

The one who fails is he who doubts and is obsessed by doubts'.

The passage goes on until Ali says:

"O Salman and Jundub, verily our dead never die, and those amongst us who are killed are not killed in reality.

"O, Salman and Jundub, the Rightful Imams from my progeny are acting in the same way, because all of us are one and the same imams manifested at all times...

But with all this, we eat and drink, ... in the market place and do what we will, by the will of God, our Lord."

One reason why we do not mourn for one cannot mourn someone who is "alive" ! Husayn is Ali ! Zainul Abeedeen is Ali ! and it is Ali only ! Anyone who clings to the physical forms of the Imams may be doing idol worshipping and islam forbids this ! We cling to the ROPE ! the Nur e Imamah ! and Nur e Imamah never dies !

naushad25 · Post by **naushad25** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:39 am

See the first thing we need to understand is what is ismailism and how does it work. if we understand this, then i bet these questions are very simple to answer. Ismailism is esoteric so we need to answer every possible islam question in an esoteric terms i.e., spiritual. coming to ur question, as our concern here is what is imam, imam is not worldly being and we have nothing to do with the imam's body (respect is different thing here). the thing that is impt is NOOR and thats what we are looking for. so moharram is worldly matter. Do remember all imams and also condemn the event but dont go beyond that like doing niyaaz or doing mataam bcz moharram was the end of a body not imam, which continued to another mazhar after that. u remember an example of a bulb by Imam SMS. thats the thing. Imam do remember everything but he wants us to go for spirituality rather than mingling in worldly things. I hope this works Yes you must go. see the thing is going into other religion's believes with a strong IMAAN in ur own faith itself increases ur faith on ur own religion. but learning it just as it is written is not good. if they are saying something, then u shud refer it properly and go for its spiritual terms. that our Ismailism One thing we can say is Imam knows all secrets. other thing is that Missionary Abu Aly refers this from our ginans which are itself understandings of Quran. He says that our Pirs have calculated everything in the times when there was no maths. but they did it bcz of their powers. He says that Quran says that for Allah, 1 year is equal to many years of Earth. pirs calculated the end of times using those calculations. its incredible. u can hear the waz titled DUS AVATAR. so Imam SMS may be refering to those years which are itself 100 years but not in worldly terms but in quranic terms. I hope this answers. ur welcome for more Thank you!

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:00 pm

Simerg Insights from Around the WorldLiterary Reading:

The Essence of Imam – An Ode by Imam ‘Abd al-Salam

There is an ode of Imam ‘Abd al-Salam in which he says that the talisman (anything that has magical powers) that can open the treasure trove of spiritual meaning of the Holy Quran is the Imam. ...so the Imam must always be present and not hidden !

This ode is lucidly explained by Dr. Shafique Virani in his book “The Ismailis in the Middle Ages”.

In the ode the Imam observes that the true essence of the Imam cannot be recognized with earthly, fleshly eyes, for these can only see his physical form, perishing like all else with the passage of time.

His true face is to be perceived with the eyes of the heart. He has thousands of physical habitations, but his true home is traceless; he has had a thousand names, but all of them refer to one reality.

In the Ode the Imam says that today he is known as ‘Abd al-Salam, but tomorrow the physical body will be gone and the name will change, yet the essence will remain in the next Imam of the lineage.

Those who look at the Imam as they squint will consider him like any other human being, but as soon as the eyes of the heart perceive correctly, his true status is discovered.

In form the Imams change, but in meaning and substance they are changeless.

Human language cannot attain to the majesty of the Imams.

The Imam is the most precious ingredient in the supreme elixir (miraculous substance) of eternal life-red sulfur. He is not simply a pearl, but the ocean that gives birth to pearls.

The existence of the Imam, who leads humankind to a recognition of God, is the very pinnacle of creation.

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:48 am

Relationship or Marriage with a Non-Ismaili and Faith

Dear InquisitiveGirl:

Firstly I would like to thank ShamsB for his support, as he understood me well. I would also like to thank Hunzai99 for making an effort to answer these questions. I would like to remind IquisitiveGirl that we are all on your side. Don’t get defensive when we are simply giving our opinions to you. Remember also that you came to this board to ask questions and we tried our best to answer them.

We are not living in a dogmatic frame of mind, which is an impression you have of us from the very beginning. Even the answers we are giving you don’t seem settle well. We are the first to support pluralism within the jamat, and you would know this if you visit all the conversion classes we do. We accept Ismailis from whatever background, and we don’t have a mind frame which is narrow.

With regards to Ismaili pride, that conversation had nothing to do with you. I was answering another issue that came up on the same page. I then proceeded to answer your questions directly. I am not giving you relationship advise, but I think it is important for Ismailis to talk about these issues openly, in a friendly manner, because we can see, especially in the padramni, that the Imam himself is interacting a lot with non-Ismaili spouses. So talking about it openly is more valid than ever.

Having said that, I think it is very important that we discuss marriage outside the Ismaili faith because it is a growing phenomenon. I think it is a great way to diversify the jamat, and I’m all for pluralism, but I’m afraid when Ismailis get married they have issues and quite frankly they may or may not know how to deal with them. I’m not speaking of individuals who know how to converse about their faith, I’m speaking of individuals who don’t know how to converse. Along with that I am concerned about the future of the faith when two individuals don’t accept each other’s point of view, what then? More importantly, what of the children? Are they going to be Ismaili, another faith, or 50/50? This is not a question of having a dual passport.

Dear InquisitiveGirl, nobody is trying to give you personal advice, but we are responding to your questions and touching upon issues of conversation. You brought up the issue that the Imam mentioned to the non-Ismaili individuals that nobody needs to convert, and that is something you’re steadfast upon. But that doesn’t mean that the Imam is supporting non-Ismailis to remain non-Ismailis.

We are a faith that believes that Imam is Allah himself. That is a very powerful statement and not shared by all, but that is a pillar upon which this faith was founded upon. It is not a faith which stands idle, but just as any faith we also participate in conversion and up until recently we had missionaries. Our people still convert individuals to the faith and thankfully that is on the rise.

What I am telling you may not sit well at first, but there are many people on this board that will mention this for your own good. It is also important because many individuals who have married non-Ismailis will also be looking at these posts with similar thoughts in mind. For them and for all those who are thinking about marrying non-Ismailis it is our sincerest hope that you consider converting your spouse to the Ismaili faith. It’s all hunky-dory when we are in love, paying the rent, enjoying your time building a family, but there comes a time when 7:30pm comes around, you have to go your way and say that I cannot share prayers with you. When it comes time to pay dasond, that is something you cannot share. When it comes time to celebrate Kushali or Imamat Day, you have to go to Khane separately, take time off of work separately. Even more so, when you even mention Allah, one is thinking of a being who cannot be seen and a Mehdi who is come at the end of times, and you’re thinking about Hazer Imam.

Surely, if faith is not a big part of the relationship then nobody has anything to say. But if faith is important to you then it must be resolved. It would be good for the both of you and for the children as well. It cannot work when two spouses view religion differently, unless that spouse understands fully that your belief in Imam as Allah will not change no matter what happens.

The bottom line is this. If you acknowledge the Imam as Allah, you pay your dasond regularly, and your children will follow your faith then I believe that your huband can continue his faith and you and your children can continue on your faith. If this is not the scenario then we will lose you or your children and that is weakening the faith, not strengthening it.

Marrying a non-Ismaili is not like marring an Ismaili of a different race. Diversity of race is completely different. In this case you have married an Ishnasheri and we are perfectly fine with that, don’t get us wrong. You have come to the board and expressed that you’re married to an Ishnasheri, you have come with questions. When we try to answer you please understand that we mean well and try to be very open about our thoughts.

Remember also that Imamat is not a presendancy. It is not to ask that one president did one thing, but what is the policy of the new administration? Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s views and opinions are just as valid today as they were in his time. Just because at that time the Imam was very blunt and open doesn’t mean he was wrong. Yes, he said a lot of harsh things about Ishnasheries, but the Quran says many harsh things about Christians and Jews. So if your spiritual father says something harsh he’s saying it because he’s right.

Hazer Imam cannot have different views from Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah. That is something you have to understand. The reason is that Hazer Imam is Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah, there is no difference between the two. So whatever was said in the previous farmans still applies, but as the Imam said that his words change according to the times. Some people have taken it upon themselves to interpret this to mean that all the past farmans are invalid today. That is not true. Just because the Imam is not telling you in your face to believe Ali is Allah or else you’re a kaffar like Imam Aga Ali Shah use to say that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

Unfortunately, some people have even taken it upon themselves to say that since Imam has not made any specific “padramni” farmans on dasond and how much to pay, then it is not necessary to make payments. Imam has said to read the farmans of his grandfather. If Imam were to reiterate the words which were spoken of at that time there would be only 9 ismailis left in the faith.

You keep saying that you’re looking for logical answers, but what I think you’re really looking for are answers that will suit your thinking. We are not going to prescribe answers that you may necessarily agree with, that is the beauty of diverse opinions. Where it hurts is when you assume that members of this board are and I quote “of the dogmatic mind frame,” which I think you should apologize for. We are simply conversing with you in good spirit, perhaps openly, but in good spirit. As far as logic is concerned, you’ll not find anywhere more intelligent and thought out individuals as on this board. We’re not on trial to give you “concrete” answers, and quite frankly you should appreciate the fact that you are our sister and everything we have said up till now is in that loving spirit.

You didn’t seem to appreciate the words about having pride in our faith. Firstly, that was not meant for you directly. Secondly, having Ismaili pride is important because it builds unity and patriotism for something we believe strongly in. The Americans have pride in their country, the Jews have pride in their history, the entire world has pride in themselves, so we should all have similar pride in our faith.

Once again I encourage all Ismailis who have married non-Ismailis to make an effort to convert their spouses to Ismailim. I encourage the Ismaili spouses to ensure that their children remain strong Ismailis devoted to the Imam of the time. Teach the non-Ismailis about our history and the concept of Imamat. Teach them the good and the bad relationships between the faiths. Then ask them if they find Ismailism with more logic and reasoning then what they thought of before. If they accept Hazer Imam as Allah, and they learn the prayers, then go through and have them go to classes for conversion. Then have them convert by signing the bayat document. Once that is finalized you will have done a great service to your family and your faith.

If you don’t do this then I believe you are simply going to have gap in your relationship which will never be resolved. That is going to creep up one day and leave the both of you at odds. In addition it weakens the people, it weakens the future generations, and it brings with it conflict which your children and their children will have to face.

I don’t want to see children who are not brought up as Ismailis. Even though you may be strong in the faith, that cannot be said of everybody. Some girls will marry boys who put pressure on them to rethink their faith. Even though they do not want to leave their faith they are scared that their spouse will leave them or love them less. Slowly, slowly, they begin to practice a bit of the other’s faith and when they cannot get the right answers in time then their minds begin to become “sympathetic” to their spouse’s faith. Eventually they become 50/50, then less. One day their faith doesn’t become entirely relevant. When they have children they learn from their parents and become even less involved in the faith. Eventually they question the faith but the parents themselves give them answers that don’t fit their logic. They then leave the faith in practice, perhaps not in name. Their children will not even be Ismaili, and they may grow up to hate Ismailis completely.

Now we are breading enemies, and it may not seem so at the time, but eventually as the faith gets weaker, the separation begins. One may say that they have lots of faith, but this faith has to be put into practice, it has to be a living faith. Yes we are esoteric, but that doesn’t mean we don’t practice our dua physically, our tasbihs physically, our padramnis physically, our dasond physically, our bayat physically. Lots of our faith is exoteric as well, but our love for Allah is esoteric and we believe in the soul which is esoteric. But so long as we are in this world there has to be a balance of both.

This is not your scenario, but it is a scenario which is taking place in the Ismaili faith. Now, just because Imam is taking time with non-Ismaili spouses it is incumbent upon the Ismaili spouses to bring their better half into the fold. We are a very compassionate faith. We have accommodated non-Ismailis in hotels, given them food, good service, etc. Now let us not take advantage of this and turn it into a two-fold padramni. Hazer Imam is merciful and he wishes you to know that all of creation are his spiritual children, and he is taking his time to comfort the non-Ismailis so that they will go back to their household with peace and happiness. Now don’t take advantage of this and say that my spouse can remain non-Ismaili forever. That is not the direction we should be moving in. We should be encouraging these non-Ismailis to join the faith.

Love is a funny thing. When you are in love with a non-Ismaili the first thing you try to do is avoid getting into theological debates. You try to be honest about the faith, but avoid the key points such as dasond, Ali is Allah, Mohammad is the first Pir in a lineage of 50, and of course the history. It gets further complicated when your love grows to the point where you decide to get married. At that point you’re not thinking of asking this person to convert to Ismailism first, but you hope that either the marriage will trigger more sympathy in his or her heart, or that faith should remain separate.

At that time it doesn’t matter what your parents say, your relatives say, nor what your community says. Love is in the air and nothing else matters. What you’re really doing is avoiding something which you know full well isn’t in sync. That is like seeing a spouse who has a gambling problem, but you try to avoid it thinking that one day he or she will change. But more likely than not it won’t change and that problem will creep up.

The relationship will continue perfectly well. The focus will not be on going to jamat khane, paying dasond, but rather seeing how each one of you can balance each other’s faith. This will be overshadowed by working hard, being honest, keeping good friends, and concentrating on being each other’s best friend.

This is hard to avoid when you have Ibadat to do in the morning, regular dua and tasbih first thing in the morning, budgeting you earnings for the day and calculating how much dasond you have to give at the end of the month, saying two evening prayers regularly in jamat khane. This is where the faith intertwines with everyday life. It is not separate from your life, it is balanced. It is a practicing faith in which you openly practice your faith and remember Allah

So when you do Ibadat at home or in Jamat Khane where is your non-Ismaili spouse? When you wake up first thing in the morning to say your dua and tasbih (Dani Salamat Datar) then where is your non-Ismaili spouse? When you have to take money out of your earnings or your joint account amounting to 10% of your monthly net income then what does your spouse have to say? What about coming home from work and getting ready for Jamat Khane, where is your spouse then? Throughout the day you are constantly practicing your faith, so where is the non-Ismaili spouse in all this? Would any spouse agree to seeing you so little throughout the day? What about during padhramnis, does the spouse like being shoved into a hotel while you’re enjoying a didar? What about Kushali, Navroz, or Imamat Day, does a non-Ismaili spouse take time off of work to celebrate with family and friends? What does the non-Ismaili spouse say to his or her family when these things happen? What does his or her family say when you break up a conversation and say I have to say my dua? What do they say when you refuse to acknowledge their rituals or viewpoints?

What happens now when you have children? All that becomes ten times more complicated because now these children will have to deal with parents who don’t see eye to eye in matters of faith. They tend to view faith much the same as their parents, something to avoid talking about. You can’t openly say that Ishnasheris did a wrong thing by causing problems in our history out of respect for your spouse. But they did. You cannot openly say that Ismailis formed the bhar bhaias and caused all kinds of problems for Ismailis during Imam Aga Hasanali Shah’s time out of respect for your spouse. You cannot even read the farmans openly because they are not the views shared by your spouse. You cannot recite the verse in Ginan which says “rove rove kura sunni sag,” out of respect for a non-Ismaili spouse.

But what of the child’s faith, what of his love and relationship with the Imam? Why subject our children to that scenario when we can have both spouses as Ismailis. Having converted your spouse you children will be proud and in turn convert many more spouses to the fold. Now that would bring diversity and strengthen the faith.

You can see even within the Imam’s family what happens when spouses are not Ismaili. Haji Bibi was not an Ismaili, but a relative of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah. Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah’s mother was a non-Ismaili. He too was even asked to go to observe the month of Mohrram by his mother but he didn’t like it. Haji Bibi caused a lot of difficulty for the Imam and gathered support within the Ismaili fold against him. In that court case it was a fight for his money and his authority, why then can we expect less from non-Ismaili spouses.

Even to put Hazer Imam’s picture in the living room and decorate it with a wreath during special occasions becomes a sensitive issue. Seeing you bow down to the Imam’s picture wouldn’t set very well. Drinking niaz or bringing home juro would also be an odd feeling. Joining a madlas like Noorani and saying to your spouse that the purpose of joining is to find the Noor of Ali, something he says will come only at the end of times.

How are Ismaili spouses going to teach their children about the Fatimid Empire and how Ismailis flourished during that time when the non-Ismaili spouse doesn’t think it was a big deal. How about during a funeral when you have to recite the Kalima, the Kalima that a non-Ismaili spouse doesn’t agree with. What happens when a non-Ismaili spouse says he or she wants to call the child George, Ayesha, or Reza instead of an Ismaili name?

What happens when Hazer Imam’s interview suddenly comes on TV and you’re all excited but your non-Ismaili spouse couldn’t care less? Mind you, this is the scenario of an Ismaili, but what happens when the non-Ismaili spouse says you have to do this and that of their faith? What happens when you have to recite Christ the Lord during Christmas, or attend rituals during Mohrram including crying for the incidents at Kerbala, or to say the Shahada without Ali’s name at the end. What happens when the non-Ismaili spouse says you have to attend Church on Sunday with his or her family? What happens when the non-Ismaili spouse says you have to say salah (namaz) five times a day? What happens when the non-Ismaili spouse says you are not to eat meat because eating a cow is wrong? I mean where does this end? And you wish to subject children to this type of confusion?

Do the right thing and convert your spouse to Ismailism. That is my advice to all Ismailis married to non-Ismailis. It works, its more relaxing, and we have a fantastic array of teachers and Al-Waezes who are able to guide your spouse though the entire process. Then you can both come to jamat khane freely, both pray together, both pay dasond, and both speak openly about faith and God. In turn your children will grow up in a healthy environment, they will become strong practicing Ismailis and their knowledge of the Imam and the history will be clear and precise. They will know how to defend their faith and eventually they will convert more non-Ismailis to our faith. That is the best path one can take. You’ll feel better and so will your spouse.

If it doesn’t work out, or you’re scared of losing your spouse due to a religious conflict then I’m sorry it is better to lose that person altogether. Not the answer you wanted but it’s true. If you can’t even reason out together a simple matter of faith then the two of you don’t understand each other at all. There is no trust between you and eventually this will grow worse and worse. For those in a marriage like this it will be hard, but not impossible if you seek the right help from our jamat. Those contemplating entering a marriage before converting your partner, I suggest you convert that person before getting married. If you don’t see eye to eye about the faith then you better reconsider getting married and seek help from the jamat.

Marriage is not a joke, nor should it be taken lightly. You have to spend a life with somebody who needs to be on the same page as yourself. You also have children and you have to think of their future and their lives. Is faith such a big deal? Yes it is. In Islam it is a big deal. It is a part of one’s daily routine. It is a practicing faith, a dynamic faith.

Some people take the faith and make everything esoteric. This avoids going to jamat khane because they say that we should keep the faith in the heart and the heart is khane itself. They avoid paying dasond because they say that dasond is a tenth of one’s time, not money, and all one has to do is think of Allah 10% of the time. They don’t say their dua because life is too busy, and plus saying dua regularly is for religious people, or old people, not for hardworking liberal individuals. They say that doing Ibadat is voluntary because who could possible wake up that early when people have to go to work the next morning. They would rather do yoga and say that is equivalent to ibadat.

What about Life madlas? How are you going to explain to a non-Ismaili spouse that I have given my life to the Imam of the time? How are you going to explain to an Ithnasheri that Hassan was not the second Imam after Ali but Hussein was?

If you see the Ishnasheri point of view, they contend that there were 12 Imams:

1. Ali
2. Hassan (not Hussein as in Ismailis)
3. Hussein
4. Zainul Abideen
5. Mohammadin Al Bakir
6. Jafer e Sadiq
7. Musa Kazim
8. Ali Reza
9. Mohammad Taqi
10. Ali Naqi
11. Hasan Askari
12. Mohammad Al Mehdi

The Ishnasheri belief is that Imam Jafer Sadiq did appoint Ismail as his successor, but later changed his mind for Musa Kazim. This split Ismailis and Ishnasheris. We don’t follow the same lineage of Imams.

The Ishnasheris then go on to say that Hasan Askari died without appointing a blood related successor. His adopted son, Mohammad Al Mehdi became the successor. He was born in 868 AD and at the age of 5 (872 AD) he was running away from his enemies and disappeared into a unknown cave. They believe that he will come back at the end of time – a time when Allah wills it. His location is on an island somewhere in the Mediterrenian Sea. No normal human being can see him or talk to him, and no satellite technology can view him. He has many children, wives, and companions living on this unknown island. They live normal lives, sleeping, eating, and having fun, but all the while nobody can see them because they are invisible. It’s important to note that belief is that he is about 1141 years old as of 2009.

Apart from being invisible, the Mehdi will come at the end of time, when Allah wills it. Allah hid him, for various reasons, from humankind. When he returns several figures will appear including: the one eyed Dajjal, the Sufyani, and the Yamani. There will be a terrible fire that will inflict on the people of Bagdad and Iraq. The signs of his coming will be the red death and the plague.

He will not come in an odd year (even though this was all suppose to be according to Allah’s will). The Dajjal or Anti-Christ is the one-eyed beast who will come at the end of time to start an apocalyptic battle. At this time, even though the entire duration of the world’s existence is nearly over and only one day is left, Allah will expand that day to allow Mehdi to return.

The Dajjal works by deceiving mankind to believe that heaven is hell and vice versa. Upon his head is the word kafir. He will bring the dead to life, and claim to be Allah himself. Then Mehdi will show up with Jesus Christ. The ground will cave in and smoke will fill the skies for forty days. A night of three nights will follow the smoke, the sun will then rise in the west.

The Dajjal will mark the faces of the people. A breeze from the south will cause sores in the armpits of the Muslims which they will eventually die from. Mahdi and Jesus will work together to defeat the Dajjal and his evil army.

The story of the coming of Mahdi and Jesus as a dynamic duo is probably the most complicated aspect of Shia Islam. It is so complicated, with so many versions, that simplifying it was a tremendous task. Within different Shia groups there is difference in the apocalyptic signs and timings. Going into it would render a person to become completely confused. Even the apocalyptic events in the Bible are more straightforward.

In this day and age, about 100 years later, nobody in their right senses can take this story seriously. No scientist in the world would put his name on the line and say that a hidden Imam can possibly exist for this length of time. This story does not follow the laws of nature at all. That is why Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah said that this story cannot last because it has no sense of logic.

The following questions should be asked to Ishnasheries:

1. Who is your Imam?
2. Where is your Imam, and where is his exact location?
3. If your Imam is in hiding then is he scared of human beings?
4. Is he scared that people are going to kill him?
5. What is the reason for hiding?

Explain to the Ishnasheries that the Imam never goes in hiding. He is the maintainer of this world. If he leaves human beings alone, or goes into hiding, then how will he help us in life? You sign up to be a follower of the Imam and he leaves you alone in this world by going into hiding makes no sense. That sounds unrealistic. If the Imam goes into hiding then who can you be a follower of? Would you consider yourself better as a follower of an Imam that is present or a follower of an Imam that is hiding? Having an Imam that is hidden doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

In this world the Imam’s role is to remain present so that he can be with his followers and guide them according to the times. He is to guide you on the right path, not wait till the sins get bad and then come to have an apocalyptic battle. That is quasi Hinduism and Christianity rolled into one.

The Prophet Mohammad himself used to say openly that he is the Prophet. He did not go into hiding out of fear of human beings. He showed many miracles during his time, but not once did he fear people. If he didn’t show such miracles then at that time who would have believed that he was who he claimed to be? How would they have accepted him? We all know who the he was, so did he once fear anybody after becoming the Prophet?

Kerbala was an epic battle. In it Imam Hussein fought single handedly against thousands of enemies. The enemies inflicted so many atrocities, they gave him so much pain, so much difficulty, and yet he tolerated it all. Despite all the problems he still maintained that he is the Imam. Just for saying that he was the Imam the problems began, but he didn’t once run away into hiding. Even though he was out numbered he continued to fight with just a stick in his hand. With only one stick he fought bravely one enemy after another. He didn’t for one moment hide his Imamat.

That stick is now with Hazer Imam, in other words Hazer Imam is Imam Hussein. No matter what kind of problems the Imam goes through he never runs away from us.

Imam Hasanali Shah also went through tremendous amount of difficulty. When he went up against Shah Fatehali of Iran he was put in very difficult circumstances. Even he had nothing but a simple stick in his hand, but he continued to fight bravely. He fought and fought till he made his way to India, but at no time did he run away in fear of people. The kingdom of Iran confiscated all his property and didn’t give him any means of surviving, neither for him nor his family. He took in all the pain and suffering of starvation, imprisonment, and torture, but he never suggested going into hiding.

Imam Kalillahali was murdered and he fought against his enemies with courage. Had he simply gone into hiding he wouldn’t have to face such suffering, but he didn’t go into hiding at all. He took the pain but he never ran away.

Now the Ishnasheries say that Imam ran away from his enemies in fear of them in the middle of battle, how can that be believed? Think about it. That being an Imam if he runs away from battle out of fear of his enemies, he does not stand up for the religion, then how can he help you in matters of religion? How can he help your children, or help you to reach heaven? If he has no ability to be an Imam for the religion and demonstrates his weakness physically then how can he handle the tasks of saving his followers?

From this you can understand that Imam does not fit the profile of somebody who would be in hiding. He would never go in hiding. It is sad to hear Ishnasheries say “my Imam is in hiding.” No Imam has ever said that he is going in hiding.

The Ishnasheri religion is completely different from Ismailism. There don’t have anything in common. Still, the Bohras have some similarities to us because they are Ismailis, but the Ishnasheries are a completely different religion.

For all those individuals who have read this, I sincerely ask that you marry a person who is Ismaili or willing to become Ismaili. The race doesn’t matter. But the religion is very important. In the long run it will be better for the both of you and your children. If you don’t then problems will occur in the future.

It is better that we have less Ismailis in the world but of strong faith than to have many Ismailis with weak faith. If you happen to be married then it is a bit harder but teach your spouse about the Ismaili faith, above all the centrality of the Imam, and give them an opportunity to feel comfortable about conversion. Once they are ready phone the council and get them enrolled in the process.

If you are unsure about how the faith works then contact the council and have them suggest arrangements. Speak to an Al-Waez whom you are comfortable with. Picking an Al-Waez is much the same as picking a doctor, so make sure you have one that suits you style.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:07 am

"....The Ishnasheri religion is completely different from Ismailism. There don’t have anything in common. Still, the Bohras have some similarities to us because they are Ismailis, but the Ishnasheries are a completely different religion. Imam Hasanali Shah also went through tremendous amount of difficulty. When he went up against Shah Fatehali of Iran he was put in very difficult circumstances. Even he had nothing but a simple stick in his hand, but he continued to fight bravely. He fought and fought till he made his way to India, but at no time did he run away in fear of people. The kingdom of Iran confiscated all his property and didn’t give him any means of surviving, neither for him nor his family. He took in all the pain and suffering of starvation, imprisonment, and torture, but he never suggested going into hiding......"

In my view other than the common Imams the Sh'ia sects had, there is now nothing much in common left between Ismailis and Bohras/Asnasheris.........up to each split sure there was common ground........after the split none was left, as far as I can see.

Also to set the record straight, Imam Hasanali Shah did not go against the King of Persia Fatehali Shah - rather he married his daughter and the King even had appointed him as the Chieftan of Kerman and so the Imam was the son in law of the powerful Monarch of Persia.....

In 1838 the Imam was involved in conflict with MOHOMED SHAH who was the then ruling Emperor who followed Fatehali Shah...one Hadji Mirza Ahasi who had been tutoring Mohomed Shah was the Prime Minister from 1834 - 1848...he was a persian of low origin and had infact formerly been in the service of the Imam also but had suddenly become the favourite and a minnion of the Emperor Mohomed Shah and he had the impudence to demand in marriage the Imam's daughter thro' the Emperor, for his son - the Imam's daughter was also the grand daughter of the Shah in Shah Fatehali Shah...the Imam felt greatly insulted by this demand and though the pressure was great, the Imam indignantly refused and thus he made the most powerful man in Persia, at that time an enemy - a deadly enemy and so there were skirmishes and fights from 1838 - 1840 but eventually the Imam was forced to move to India through the deserts of Baluchistan and Sind.

Yes ! Inter - marriages are a concern but though the community does not interfere.

Inter-marriages, generally speaking should not be encouraged for the reasons you have offered......how about Ismailis encouraging inter-marriages amongst themselves within their own diversity e.g marrying Tajiks, Afghans, Hunzites, Syrians etc etc....perhaps the community should look into this aspect seriously.....but again nobody is against any other sect or community - there is no bias so to speak....but the reasons given by you, for the most part, are valid and worthy of consideration as what faith will the children follow?

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:22 am

"...Kerbala was an epic battle. In it Imam Hussein fought single handedly against thousands of enemies. The enemies inflicted so many atrocities, they gave him so much pain, so much difficulty, and yet he tolerated it all. Despite all the problems he still maintained that he is the Imam. Just for saying that he was the Imam the problems began, but he didn’t once run away into hiding. Even though he was out numbered he continued to fight with just a stick in his hand. With only one stick he fought bravely one enemy after another. He didn’t for one moment hide his Imamat.

That stick is now with Hazer Imam, in other words Hazer Imam is Imam Hussein. No matter what kind of problems the Imam goes through he never runs away from us....."

You mean "Zulfikar" ? every Ali of his time and age has that with him....it is used differently according to the demands of the time....currently the sword is eradicating "HER" - if you see the AKDN posters you may find a woman's photo and the slogan "Look at Her" ! Now fools try to see the photo of the woman to see if they can see anything else....reminds me of the saying...."when I point at the stars, the fools look at my fingers...the only consolation I have is that they are not looking inside my arm pits..."

The Imam of the time and age is pursuing a JIHAD - which isstriving in the way of Allah ! and HER means HEALTH, EDUCATION AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT !

So TODAY'S "Zulfikar" is fighting wars against illiteracy, sickness and lack of basic amenities, for rural people so that they can have hope in life and can also live with dignity like those in the cities !

The question is do some of these people really understand what he is doing? or even appreciate his efforts? and who would bother to do all this ? only the Prophet's family indeed !

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:48 am

"....The sun will then rise in the west. The Dajjal will mark the faces of the people. A breeze from the south will cause sores in the armpits of the Muslims which they will eventually die from. Mahdi and Jesus will work together to defeat the Dajjal and his evil army...."

The evil is inside us ! Our nafs is the satan !..."the condition of the people will not change until they change what is in their hearts.."

The QAIM will rise and read Ali's scroll to the people when the time comes !

The "QAIM" is Hazirul Maujood and at some point in time there will be "recognition" of who he is ! until then generations are dying the death of an infidel as per the hadith which says..."anyone who dies without acknowledging or knowing his Imam of the time, dies the death of a pervert.."

The Dajjal inside us is already doing the damage....anyway, if the Quran says that Jesus was a Prophet and if Prophethood was sealed, what I need to ask then is in what capacity will Jesus come back? will he come back as a Prophet? or in some other capacity? and secondly why both have to come together ? is one not strong enough ? is Allah not powerful and knowing? and doesn't the Sh'ia agree that there can only be one Imam per era? so why both? any thoughts?

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:46 pm

page 24-27 - "Chapter III

SHI'A AND ITS SUB-DIVISIONS

The central feature of Sh'ism is the concept of Imamate. Imam, for Shiite, is the true successor of prophet Muhammad, whose authority extends to spiritual as well as the secular matters. Although the direct divine inspiration came to an end with the death of the prophet, yet the Divine knowledge, power, truth and wisdom were transferred from him Imam Ali and after him to his descendants from Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet. Therefore, the knowledge of the Imam is a Divine knowledge. The Nomination of Imam to the position of Imamate is the direct act of divine Will and no temporal or spiritual power can interfere with this will. Imam is chosen to this position by Divine inspiration, and no one, not even the Prophet or previous Imam, can chose a person as his successor to Imamate by his own personal will or desire. The commandments of Imam should be accepted and followed in the same way as the words of prophet Muhammad were accepted and followed. The Obedience to Imam is the only way to salvation and happiness. Without obeying the Imam a Shiite can never expect any kind of salvation. Imam is the only path to happiness. Furthermore, Imam, for Shiite, is the central point of the universe. He is the only connecting link between God and man. The World can never exist without the Imam. Thus the line of the Imam should continue till the day of judgement.(33)

All those Muslims who regardless of their later differences, accepted Imam Ali as the true successor of prophet Muhammad, and believed that his authority extended over the spiritual realm as well as over temporal matters were called Shiites.

But we must keep in mind the difference between the function of the Imam as a temporal leader and as a spiritual guide. As a temporal leader, the Imam may or may not assume this position. But as a spiritual guide, he is appointed by a Divine Will. For example, Imam Ali, as a spiritual leader, was appointed by the prophet, and hence was the first Imam. But as a Caliph, he came after Othman, as the third Orthodox Caliph.

Imam Ali was martyred in the mosque of Kufa, after being, for four years, the Caliph and the Imam of the Muslims. After him his son, Imam Hassan, succeeded to the position of Caliphate. He was Caliph for less than one year because he abdicated his temporal leadership to Mu'awiah. But the Imamate was transferred from Imam Ali directly to imam Hussein, the second son of Imam Ali from Fatima, the daughter of prophet Muhammad. (34)

Imam Hussein rebelled against Yazid, sone of Mu'awiyah, and was martyred in the tragic event of Karbela. Then his son Ali Zayn al-A'bedin succeeded him to the position of Imamate.

After the death of Imam Ali Zayn al-A'bedin a worth mentioning division appeared among the Shiite. A group of Shiite claimed the title of Imamate to his son Zayd rather than to his appointed and accepted successor Mohammed al-Baquir. They were called Zaydis and are now the predominant sect in the Yemen.

But the majority of Shiite followed Imam Muhammad al-Baaquir and then his son Imam Jafar al-Sadik (35)

Imam Jafar al-Sadik, however, was he first Imam who introduced philosophy into Islamic thinking, the outcome of which was a great movement in the Islamic World. This new movement which added a great deal to Islamic thought was based mainly on the allegorical interpretation of the Glorious Koran. This is not surprising if we remember that Imam Jafar was himself the most learned man at that time. He was called the (father of alchemy) (36) and the founders of the main Sunni schools of interpretation were among his students. Furthermore, Imam Jafar al-Sadiq laid the foundation of the secret Ismaili Da`wa. He announced the death of his successor, Imam Ismaili, in order to avoid the Abbasides pressures and their plans to get rid of him. In fact, Imam Ismaili went into concealment and worked secretly. This act of Imam Jafar was mis-understood by some of his followers who believed that Imam Ismaili died and hence his brother Musa al-Kazem, was he true Imam.

This group became known as Isna Ashris (Twelvers), because they accepted the first six Imams and five of the descendants of Musa al-Kazem. The Twelfth Imam, however, disappeared in Sammaria in northern Iraq, and will appear again when the world would be full of misery and in justice. His appearance is a sign of the coming of the day of judgement and the end of this world. The rest of Imam Jafar`s followers understood and accepted their Imam`s plan, and hence accepted the Imamate of his son and true successor, Imam Ismaili and his descendants. They became known as Ismailis (37)

All the followers of Imam Ja`far al-Sadiq agreed upon the fact that Imam Jafar appointed his eldest son, Ismaili, as his successor to the position of Imamate, But the Isna Ashris claim that Imam Ja'far, later on (withdrew) this appointment from Ismaili, and appointed his second son, Musa al-Kazem, to that position. The Ismailis, on the other hand, said that this is not possible. Because, first of all, the Imam is infallible and hence he acts by a divine will. Furthermore, the transfer of Imamate proceeds from father to son, not from brother to brother, Hence, if Imam Ismaili had died during his father's lifetime, the Imamate would have been transferred to his son Imam Muhammad Iben Ismaili as it actually had.

Ismailis, follow Muhammad the son of Imam Ismaili and his descendants up to the present day (38). They too underwent some sub-divisions. The first noteworthy one came after he death of Imam al-Hakim Bi Amr Allah. A group of Ismailis deified Imam Al-Hakem and claimed that he did not die, and that one day he will reappear to terminate the world and bring the Divine justice back. This group is called Druzes (39)and it lives in Lebanon, Syria and Palestine (40) But the majority of Ismailis followed the son of Imam Al-Hakem, Al-Zaher, and his descendants up to Imam Mustanser Billah, Here a Major division took place in Ismailism. The reason behind it being that after the death of Imam Mustanser, the commander of the troops deposed Imam Nizar,the rightful successor of Imam Mustanser and placed him by his brother Al-Musta'li (41) But Imam Nizar escaped from the prison by the help of his followers in Cairo, and specially Hassan Bin Sabbah (42) his Da'i in Iran, and went to Syria and then to Iran. Those Ismailis who followed al-musta'li became know first as Musta'lians, and nowadays as Buhra, and are mainly living in Yemen, India and East Africa. Those who followed Imam Nizar up to present Imam, H. R. H. Karim Agha Khan, were known as Ismaili Nizari or Ismailis."

Reference: Introduction to Ismailism
BY DR. SHEIKH KHODR HAMAWI
1970
http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_5/1800 ... 180755.pdf

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:08 pm

The Hashimids and the Umayids are two brances of Quraysh. The Prophet ( may peace be on him) belonged to the Hashimids.

The Hashimid family was further divided into two main branches namely the Alids or the Fatimids and the Abasids.

The descendants of Hazrat Ali and Bibi Fatima as Zahara are called Fatimids.

The descendants of Abbas, the uncle of the Prophet were known as the Abbasids.

Al-Abbas nor any of his immediate sons had ever dreamt of Khilafat.

On the contrary when the Dawa of Hazrat Ali was ongoing, the sons of Abbas were actually following it.

It was only after the martyrdoom of Imam Husayn that the Shi'as became divided in their opinion.

Some gave their loyalty to Imam Zainul Abideen and others gave to Muhamad al Hanafiya , a son of Hazrat Ali by another wife Hanafiya.

Muhammad al Hanafiya gave his own Bayat to Abdul malik bin Marwan, the Umayad Caliph.

After Muhamad al Hanafiya died his followers considered his son Abul Hashim as their Imam and when Abul Hashim's death became near, he passed over his right of Imamat to Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas and Ali bin Abdullah bin Abbas then designated his son Muhamad bin Ali as a successor.

Now interestingly enough, Muhamad bin Ali having all the time believed that the "movement" was originally started in favour of those from Ali's sons who were from Fatima, felt that this "shifting" of Imamat to the House of Abbas wasn't digestable.

He thus collected all his Shi'a supporters and told them to form a "Missionary" order to propagate in favour of the Ahl al Bayt without naming anyone, as such.

However his own intent wasn't as sincere also and so he thought that when the time comes he will easily be able to capture power and thus they started to attract the Shite supporters of Hazrat Ali's family who were obviously misled by the Abbasids.

This Abbasid propaganda had started during the time of the Umayid Caliph Yazid 11 and it had first started in Kufa and Khurasan which were the centres of the Shias.

After Muhamad bin Ali's death, his son Ibrahim succeeded him as the leader of the Abbasids.

Ibrahim found a very capable man in Abu Muslim al-Khurasani who became the champion of their cause.

Khurasan became the centre of the activities of Abu Muslim.

He defeated the Umayid governor of Khurasan though it must be remembered here that up to this point the Umayids did not know who was behind all this activity as all propaganda work was carried out in secret.

It was Marwan 11 the last of the Umayid Caliphs who came to know that it was Ibrahim who was behind all that was taking place and so the caliph thought that if he caught Ibrahim and killed him all the problems would wither away.

So Ibrahim was arrested and put in jail.

When Ibrahim was arrested he knew that he would not be able to escape and so he passed over his Imamat to his brother Abul Abbas as saffah and as for Ibrahim's family they left for Kufa where the Chief Da'i Abu salamah al-Khallal hid them in a secret place and this was in 132 A.H.

In the meantime Abu Muslim al-Khurasani continued his march and defeated the Umayid governors one by one and once this happened the Imam of the Abbasids Abul Abbas came out of hiding and went to the mosque to lead the prayers.

When marwan came to know of this he took an army and marched against the Abbasids but was badly defeated at the battle that took place at a place called Zab.

Thus the Umayid Khilafat ended and the Khilafat of bani Abbas began with As-Saffah being their first Abbasid Khalif.

Now all the happened during the lifetime of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq who had kept himself aloof from these politics.

He had sent his learned Missionaries Sufiani and Halwani to preach the ismaili faith.

The situation was difficult but these two Missionaries were sincere and faithful to the Imam and great achievment was made.

Now Abul Abbas died in the year 136 A.H. and he had appointed his brother al-Mansoor as his successor.

We have already made an observation earlier on that this Abbasid movement initially was made in the name of the descendants of Ali and Fatima but when As-Saffah gave the Khilafat to his brother, the Alids realized that they had been betrayed by their own cousins.

Abu Mansoor now felt that the Alids would now rise to restore themselves to their right of Khilafat/Imamat and so he did not feel safe.

He was increasingly jealous of Imam Jafar as Sadiq's popularity.So he kept on finding opportunities to kill the Imam.

Infact once he asked the governor to even set the Imam's house on fire when the Imam was inside.

Abu mansoor's spies were all over trying to kill the Imam and at this point the Imam appointed his son ismail as the Imam after him but due to the difficult conditions sent Imam ismail away to Basra.

Imam Jafar as Sadiq was either poisoned or molten lead was put in his ears and he passed away in the year 148 A.H.

It must be noted here that Imam Ismail came to the throne of the Imamat in 148 A.H. and was appointed an Imam during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as Sadiq.

As Abu mansoor was still trying to chase Imam Ismail, he left Basra for Salamiyah.

From Imam Ali to Jafar as Sadiq the Imams resided in Arabia. If Imam Ismail died in arabia then let the people find his tomb in arabia ! it is not in arabia...his tomb is in Syria....people simply love to churn out fairy tales.

However after that the next five Imams i.e. from Shah ismail to Imam Raziyuddin Abdullah, they all lived in Salamiya.

The formation of the Itnah Ashariya Sect :

As explained above, due to the difficult and dangerous conditions prevailing, Imam ismail first went to Basra and then to Salamiya and so had moved away from Arabia.

There is absolutely no doubt that the appointment (Nass) was made on Imam Ismail. Even the Twelvers are not denying this except they have come up with this innovative concept of "Bada".

There is no denial of this designation of ismail save that his brother became a "rival" claimant to the Imamat of Ismail.

In consequence there was a SPLIT !

There are two or three versions given regarding this split but regardless the succession to Imam Jafar as Sadiq still remains the principal dividing factor and now a matter of belief.

It was a definite split and the destiny of the Shi'as took a new course from this point onwards.

Infact the chief Dai's of Imam Jafar as Sadiq like Abul Khattab and Mymoon al Qaddah were already helping Imam Shah Ismail since the time he was the Imam-designate to formulate policies and plans of action.

One version is that there was a conservative group who were reluctant to change the policy of the previous Imam and so they gathered around the leadership of the fourth son of Imam Jafar, called Musa kazim and wished that the Imamat should go to him and thus trying to avoid the impending changes ,but which said changes were necessary.

Another version is that Imam ismail had died during the life time of Imam Jafar as Sadiq and so a group believed in Ismail's son Mohamed bin ismail as the next Imam and they are called ismailis whilst another group said that the Imamat should go to another son of Imam jafar as Sadiq namely Musa kazim....an innovative reasoning called "bada" was created to justify this switch - "change of mind or heart" by God ! It is like saying God did not get it right the first time and had to change HIS own mind !

Now some Historians will tell you that Imam Jafar as Sadiq had seven sons of which Ismail al-Aaraj (the lame) was one and Ismail al-Akbar (also known as Abdullah al-Aftah) was another and with Muza kazim they were outstanding but it was Ismaili (the lame) who had died and not ismail al-Akbar (who had been appointed as Imam).

Those who followed Imam Shah ismail are the ismailis and today since 1400 years their line of imamat still continues whereas the rest have ended as per the covenant of Allah with Abraham !

It is also said that when the Abbasid caliph al-mansoor came to know about Musa kazim claiming to be the Imam, he was arrested and put in prison where he died.

Ithna - asharies (or twelvers) believe in Musa Kazim as the 6th imam and end up with Muhamad al Muntazar (also called Mehdi) their twelth Imam who disappeared and is supposed to re appear on the Day of Judgement....Let them believe what they like as long as they don't impose it on others....

As far as the ismailis are concerned, imam shah ismail after settling in Salamiyah sent his own Missionaries to preach the ismaili faith and his chief Missionary was Abul Khattab and Abdullah bin Maymoon al-Qaddah.

Maymoon al Qaddah served as a Missionary during the time of Imam Jafar as Sadiq also.

There is no evidence of any Ismaili connection with the Twelver lineage after the split.....or for that matter with the Bohras.

Maymoon was a descendant of Salman Farsi and played an important role in the dawa work of the ismailis at that time.

Finally Imam Shah Ismail left Syria because Abu Mansoor was still trying to kill him and had asked the governor of Syria to imprison the Imam but the governor was an ismaili and so he informed the Imam privately and the Imam left Syria and finally passed away in 158 AH.

However the next Imam Mohamed bin Ismail who was 20 when he ascended the throne of imamat lived secretly in Salamiya.

The Abbasids were creating too many difficulties for the Imams and the Imam had to live in concealment and so his whereabouts were not known to the public.

This period in our own history is famous as "Dawr us Satr" that is the period of "Occultation".

Imams used to even adopt the same names as those of their devotees to hide their own identity.

The dawa work continued but only through the Imam's own devotees and Missionaries who offered great sacrifices.

Imams lived in disguise and well known Missionaries namely Hurmuz, his son Mehdi, Sohrab bin Rustam and his son Imran set out on long journeys as traders but continued to spread the faith of the ismailis....

The Imams however were always present on this earth and known to their close companions or "sahabas". Imam must always be present on this earth even if there are only two people left !

AmarS · Post by **AmarS** » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:12 pm

Brother SamirNoorali,

I do not agree with a lot of things you suggest to InquisitiveGirl.

We are a faith just like Christianity and Judaism, and we should be proud of that. Proud to hold up the Ismaili flag in public and say to non-Ismailis that I am an Ismaili and I follow the Aga Khan. That sense of pride is missing. It’s played down. It’s not as strong as we need it to be.

We are a faith like all other faiths, not just like Christianity and Judaism.

During Golden Jubilee, Ismailis held the Ismaili flag proudly in public. Ismailis are proud of their faith and their Imam. This was displayed world over. I do not know what part of the world you reside in, but we had all lined up in the streets with Ismaili flag in Canada. Flags were obvious in Africa, Asia, Europe and USA. So I do not think the sense of pride is missing. What is missing is religious knowledge. Lot of our people have no knowledge of our faith let alone Islam.

Folding hands and showing that we are worshipping our Imam, which we are not, is not at all representative of Ismaili faith. Ismailism is a faith of conviction. You have to have Iman, and you do not have to show it to anybody. Folding hands is a sign of respect. Indian President and other Indian leaders folded their hands in front of our Imam during his GJ visit to India. This does not mean they were worshipping our Imam.

Too many Ismailis are celebrating Christmas at home, with family or friends. This has got to stop. It is embarrassing.

Why is it embarrassing? We are living among predominantly Christian population and like them we too get time off from work. So what is wrong with having some fun with our friends and relatives and showing our Christian friends that Jesus Christ was also our Prophet and we are celebrating his birth.

Let us not be like the fundamentalists who preach “rejection” of other faiths.

Ithnasheris acknowledge Mohorram because they don’t have anything else to do. Just as the Christians celebrate Christmas because Christ is nowhere to be found, similarly the Ishnasheris acknowledge the month of Mohorram because Mehdi is nowhere to be found. You have to do something to keep the funding going. This is one way the faith can breathe in new life. New life into something that is simply going in circles.

This is a very insensitive and crude remark towards our Shi’a brothers. Imam does not wish to see hatred within the Umma nor between Ismailism and people of other faiths.

As regards your remark about Christ is nowhere to be found, Christians are not looking for Christ but are awaiting the second coming. Just the way Christians celebrate the birthday of Christ, all Muslims celebrate the birthday of Prophet S.A.W. , and Shia’s, including the Ismailis celebrate the birthday of Hazarat Ali and the current Imam. Ithnas and Bohoras even celebrate the birthdays and death anniversaries of Panjtan Pak and their respective Imams.

We should celebrate Imam’s birthday, Imamat day, and Navroz with full celebrations and happiness. Forget about the Ishnasheries,

Please tell that to the Tariqah Board and our Imam and don‘t forget to say, “forget the Ithna‘Asheris.. During the present Imamat of Shah Karim S.A.W., Saligrah, Imamat Day and Novroz will not be celebrated with full celebration, when any of these events fall during Mohorram. We cannot forget about the Ithnas nor anybody within the Umma.

I am surprised that you do not wish to see division within the Ismailis, but you have no qualms about teaching Ismailis in this forum, to ignore the Umma. This is not the Ismailism I have been taught. And I do not see these teachings coming from the Imam of the Time whose son’s wedding was officiated by a Clergy of the Twelvers.

You don’t see the Christians saying that they should put Christmas on hold because of respect for the Ishnasheries. You don’t see the Jews paying respect to the Ishnasheries.

Jews and Christians do not know much about Islam, let alone the sentiments of the Ithna’Asheris.

You don’t even see the Sunni Muslims saying we should not celebrate Idd because of the Ishnasheris. So why are we Ismailis acting backwards when the whole world is doing what they want.

Both, Sunnis and Shi’as celebrate Idd. Idd NEVER FALLS in the month of Mohorram. For your information, Eid-ul-Fitr falls in the month of Ramadan, and Eid-ul-Adha falls in the month of Zilhaj and so does Idd-E-Ghadir.

When is the last time Ishnasheries paid respect to Imamat Day or the Imam’s birthday? When is the last time an Ishnasheri said we are going to celebrate Kushali on December 13th out of respect for our Ismaili brothers? So then why are we bending when nobody else is doing so?

This is totally irrelevant.

In some parts of the world Ithana’Asheris did put ads in newspapers on the occasion of our Imam’s birthday or Imamat Day and Golden Jubilee. Persian Ithnas even celebrate Navroz. Navroz is a Persian tradition which Ismailis have incorporated into their faith.

Celebrating a happy occasion is different from celebrating during an occasion when somebody is mourning. It is just a matter of respect, and extremely sensible.

First of all, being married to a non-Ismaili is perfectly fine. But at some point you will have issues with regards to faith

.

You only met this girl on this site. You do not know her personally. You do not even know her husband and you are trying to be a psycho-analyst. This is not prudent. From what she has written, it seems that they have a very compatible relationship, so why are you jumping the gun and predicting gloom and doom!

She reached out to this forum for some guidance, but all she has met is history lessons, which are irrelevant to her situation, and, Prophets of gloom and doom.

In the western world there have been a lot of inter-marriages. Ismailis are no exceptions. In the west people are highly educated and are able to work out their differences successfully because not only they love each other but they respect each other immensely and work out their differences . I have seen a lot of inter-marriages between Ismailis and non-Ismailis and they are working well. 90% of the time, Ismailis have been successful in raising their children in their faith. But when these children go to Universities, including the children of where both the spouses are Ismailis, they are influenced by Buddhism, Christianity (especially the way islam is going these days), Hinduism, etc. We have no control over them. Some return and others are lost forever.

I know of a school friend whose husband is Ithna’Asheri. When they got married and had children, husband told the wife that he would like the children to be raised as Ismailis because they will have better chances of education and religious upbringing. He tried to learn about Ismailism but faced barriers and he had no patience with people who acted as though they were so superior! He thus remained Ithna’Asheri. Children were raised Ismailis as the mother’s side of the family is very religious. Father took them to religious classes regularly Needless to say, neither of the children is following Ismailism. They have no religion. Both parents are devasted.

In the long run you have to decide if you’re going to convert your husband to the Ismaili faith.

What I am reading here is that you believe that Ismaili faith is superior to all other faiths. Why does she have to convert him? What is wrong with him following his religion the way he believes. I am sure this girl must have weighed pros and cons before tying the knot, because she seems very intelligent.

First of all, Ismailis are reluctant to convert non-Ismailis, especially non-Ismaili muslims. They are extremely reluctant to do so. In cases where they have converted people out of pressure from families, conversion has been made very difficult whereby you have to go through training of a year or two. In Canada they are very organized but in other parts of the world the conversion process is long and ardous. Sometimes people leave mid-stream feeling frustrated and sometimes even hateful.

Like Inquisitve Girl I have plenty of issues with your rhetoric. However, before I could address them, you have given lecture No. 2. I don’t think I have the time to read your post or even finish responding to the first one.

One thing is for sure, you have painted a bad picture of Ismailism. According to you, Ismailism is Superior to all faiths, is insensitive of the beliefs of other Muslims and other faiths and does not care about the teachings of our Imam who has taught us tolerance, peace, respect and Islamic brotherhood.

Imam wants unity within the Umma and you are preaching the opposite.

Please read Imam’s speeches. Read what he says about Islam and the Ummah. You might reconsider your position after reading them.

znanwalla · Post by **znanwalla** » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:43 am

Our differences both define and connect us and so I consider them healthy and this is what is good about Ismailis as they are not conditioned by the "clergy" to sing the same song, however right or wrong one may be....

I agree with many things you say ! but the Imam has also said that we respect other people's beliefs and they too should respect ours..." - now many don't ! they unduly bad mouth our Imams....they are provocative....they should practice their beliefs and not point fingers at us but mind their own business....certainly they then should be respected.....but they should earn this privilege !

Pluralism does not mean we "cross the bridge" and start believing in their beliefs - or vice versa ! not at all...and we do not do matam nor do we mourn....we show respect to their belief and sentiments - right or wrong....and I hope they appreciate it instead of being abusive....... some of them do call us heretics.....

Inter marriages generally speaking are a matter of concern...there will always be exceptions to a rule....so you too may be right....children can go astray even when both parents are ismailis....however the probability is higher when both are not ismailis because at the end they are exposed to different beliefs and this in my view is not "pluralism"....there should not be any compromises in our values.......but again I have said that people make their own choices in life and the community does not interfere...

Here is an example from an early scholar: "One of you knows all his
own faults and mistakes and he still likes himself, prefers himself (over
others), yet he dislikes his Muslim brother on account of suspicion. So
where then is the Aql, (intellect, sanity)?"

How should a Muslim look at others?

Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood reportedly said; "If you knew what I know about myself then you would have thrown dust over my face."

How should a Muslim view himself/herself? (i.e. How can any of us
regard ourselves and honestly understand our own spiritual and moral
worth?

No one on this earth is complete, perfect and free from defects in
every single respect.

Regarding the relationship of husband and wife, the Prophet (saws) once
said: "Let not a believing man dislike a believing woman; if he dislikes
one quality in her, then he will be pleased with another (the same goes for
women)."

What we realize from this Hadith is that no Muslim is completely wicked and evil, nor are there any who can be called completely perfect. In fact,
every one of us is a mixture of some good characteristics (even if they
seem scarce at times) and some bad or evil characteristics (even if, in
rare cases, they seem to be minimal).

So the first point every Muslim should teach himself/herself is that no
one, absolutely no one, is perfect.

All who realize this fact will find
themselves far more patient in dealing with their fellow human beings and
will experience less worry and annoyance in daily life.

In Sura Hujurat (verse 11) of the Qur’an, we are taught that God Almighty
forbids Lamz (the Arabic word for piercing and stabbing), which in this
context means finding fault in others.

Ismaili "bashing" has become a pastime for many of these folks !
This is a very appropriate analogy,

Since fault-finding or back-biting behaviors are like piercing the
recipients with a sword or stabbing them with a dagger.

In fact, wounds inflicted by the tongue can be far more lasting than physical ones.

As the poet said: "The wounds of blades may heal one day, but the wounds of the tongue? They never may."

The twin virtues of tolerance and forbearance are so essential to society
that Islam deems it obligatory for all Muslims to observe the rules of good
conduct so as to preserve unity among humankind.

Islam thus forbids slander, sarcasm, backbiting and fault-finding, in order to minimize dissension and strengthen brotherly and sisterly relationships in the community.

Thus it is the duty of every Muslim to observe the rights of
others and to refrain from insulting and humiliating them.- do they listen or follow this?

So it is not just for ismailis to do this but for all of them.

We all know that the nature of some people seems focused only on searching for faults, mistakes, and negative secrets in others and to criticize and blame them for these shortcomings.

But in most cases, the faults and shortcomings of these fault-finders greatly exceed their noble qualities, for they have become so preoccupied with the faults and misfortunes of others that they are blind to their own.

They see a tree without noticing the forest behind it.

They see an atom in the eyes of another, but fail to see a rock in their own eyes.

They give much importance to observing faults in others in order to insult and downgrade them , ignoring the fact that in doing so they deprive
themselves of any awareness regarding their own mistakes.

By ignoring the dangers present in their own souls, they stray from the path of guidance and righteousness and end up following instead the path to destruction and misery.

www.ismaili.net

Sultan Muhammad Shah & Twelver Faith

Sultan Muhammad Shah & Twelver Faith

Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

Re: Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

Re: Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

Re: Mohorram and the Ismaili Faith

Relationship or Marriage with Non-Ismaili and Faith

Re: Sultan Muhammad Shah & Twelver Faith