Why Ginans with music were banned?
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Aly_shallwani
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Why Ginans with music were banned?
<FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=4>Why Ginans with music were banned? is there any secret which o­nly imam knows i think music attracts us as we do listen songs and also memorize it same as ginans as our pirs have also converted Hindus to ismailies by singing garbis with the music thats why i think if ginan could be with music it'll be more impressive,attractive as ginans are attractive now also but it'll be gud if music will also be added with them!wat are your views abou that?</FONT>
Ginans - Music
I am not sure what you are suggesting. Are you suggesting that we have Ginans with music in JKs?
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Aly_shallwani
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Ginans were with music in the past
Garbis like "EVI GARBI SAMPURARHSARAH" "PIR NACHI NE KANTHE GINAN RE MA" these were the few examples of ginans with music but any o­ne give can give my answer plz!
YAM,
There was a grand Ginan Mushaedo organised in East Africa during the times of Sultan Muhammad Shah and a souvenir book was published.
Imam was very happy. I remember reading that he encouraged this kind of ginan with music but SPECIFICALLY added that there should not be musical instrument inside the prayer hall but outside prayer hall.
I don't have the book handy but we should try to find out the exact instructions...
Nagib
There was a grand Ginan Mushaedo organised in East Africa during the times of Sultan Muhammad Shah and a souvenir book was published.
Imam was very happy. I remember reading that he encouraged this kind of ginan with music but SPECIFICALLY added that there should not be musical instrument inside the prayer hall but outside prayer hall.
I don't have the book handy but we should try to find out the exact instructions...
Nagib
This is an interesting statement by MSMS. It tells us that when Ginans are recited in the prayer hall, they assume a different meaning and purpose. I also have felt this. Hearing a Ginan recited in JK has a different feeling than listening to it in a cassette outside JK. Also if appropriate Ginans are recited for appropriate occassions they evoke special feelings and understanding.nagib wrote:YAM,
There was a grand Ginan Mushaedo organised in East Africa during the times of Sultan Muhammad Shah and a souvenir book was published.
Imam was very happy. I remember reading that he encouraged this kind of ginan with music but SPECIFICALLY added that there should not be musical instrument inside the prayer hall but outside prayer hall.
I don't have the book handy but we should try to find out the exact instructions...
Nagib
Ya ali madad to all
Ginan + Music = Ocean of love
Ginan = knowledge
Music = intoxication of love/passion (Masti)
have you ever felt this? If you have then you understand exactly what I am talking about.
Ghad Ghad lehrei prem ki utteh
Ta beech shireen muhk ki choote
-Bram Prakash
May Mowla Bless you all
Karim Qazi
Ginan + Music = Ocean of love
Ginan = knowledge
Music = intoxication of love/passion (Masti)
have you ever felt this? If you have then you understand exactly what I am talking about.
Ghad Ghad lehrei prem ki utteh
Ta beech shireen muhk ki choote
-Bram Prakash
May Mowla Bless you all
Karim Qazi
Ginans with Music
Hazar Imam in one of his hidayat to Ismailia Association in 1960's and 1970's (not sure exactly) mentioned that I dont want that any ginan-e-mehfil with music is organized in public places. Since after these hidayats of hazar imam, ginans with music stopped. Our seniors also said that tunes, raags and some words of ginans also changed in this Musical mehfil. May be this was the reason behind this.
akbar
akbar
Re: Ginans with Music
I have been following this matter since decades and have never heard or seen such hidayat. I have read minutes of most of the meetings of the Ismailia Association and can not recall any instence of seing this.Akberhuda wrote:Hazar Imam in one of his hidayat to Ismailia Association in 1960's and 1970's (not sure exactly) mentioned that I dont want that any ginan-e-mehfil with music is organized in public places. akbar
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from_Origin
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In my humble opinion,
1. Ismaili Ginans are sacred. So much so that I heard from someone (may have been one of the really good Al-Waez) that even MHI listens to them (at low volume levels) while He goes about doing His work in His office.
2. Ismaili Ginans are sacred because they were entirely composed by Ismaili Pirs who have always been spiritually close to the Ismaili Imams. So, the logic goes, since the Pirs composed Ginans (whether to depart critical spiritual knowledge to already existing Ismailis or to introduce and invite the then Hindus to Ismailism), then only the Imam has the ultimate authority to change this treasure. Why? Because today's Pir is our Living Imam.
3. Ismaili Ginans are sacred because they come from pure spiritual masters, meaning the Pirs. Since some of the Ginans were composed and recited with the Hindu culture musical instruments (tanpur, tabla, etc), then those same Ginans should also be recited (or performed) in the same exact manner to keep its full impact as it was meant to be. However, I have heard about, but not yet seen, MHI's farman or directive indicating musical instruments should not be used in JK. However I have not heard of any Farmans or directives, nor seen one, that indicates musical instruments CANNOT be used with Ginans anywhere outside of JK. That would naturally mean peaceful music performed with Ginans to support its message is nothing to shy away from.
4. Ismaili Ginans, with their sacredness and timely signposts and warnings of the trappings of the material world, ultimately express a deep and profound passion for the Beloved. In other words, it's the soul's yearning for the Divine Love. What else could help create and maintain writhing shivers and intoxicating ecstacy for the Ultimate Divine Love other than the peaceful yet powerful vibrations created by music to simply bring a rational man to tears in recognizition of his soul being separated from His Soul? MSMS (a.s.) in Usul-i-Din (1899) states that "Our Faith is the way of the Sufi" (paraphrased). In just about every Sufi school of thought, music is an integral part of feeling when invoking the pleasures of the Beloved. MSMS (a.s.) had even referred to Himself as a "Dervesh" when referring to Himself underneath His european style clothing.
5. So I come to my final point. Ismaili Ginans are sacred indeed. MHI (a.s.) has referred to them as the "Wonderful Tradition". So it seems that Imam is quite aware of this tradition and wishes for us to have it and to teach it to our future generations. Additionally, He is quite aware of the wordings of these Ginans as He is All Knowing (and literally listens to them while working). Doesn't it make simple logical sense to honor and keep the Ginans just the way they are and invest those resources into finding out more about the backgrounds of the Ginans, their context, in what sort of setting they are composed, etc., instead of trying so desparately hard in using our limited institutional resources to attempt to make changes to the sacred wordings?
Final thought I wish to share. People talk about political and religious oppression. Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, Russia, and other nations have them. But there are countries in the West that have very limited, if any, religious limitations. Yet, it becomes so very obvious that despite openness of religious expression in a Western country, we have "religious opressors" right here within our own community who are afraid, for some reason that only God can understand, that our faith is somehow looked upon as a faith that contains Hinduism. Hello mr. institutional leader??! Were you asleep to learn that our Hindu forefathers were invited to and accepted the Ismaili Tariqa and were then referred to as the Khojas? Do you not listen to our Tasbih in Paki and Indi JKs that are predominately in either Urdu, Gujrati, Hindi, etc? Should it be fully in Arabic? What's next? Changing the Ginan wordings to Arabic so that Paki Jamat doesn't sound like Pakis or Indians??
When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) wrote a very touching letter to His son to try to teach him about life and the hereafter, the very first point He stressed in that incredibly moving letter was"...first and foremost, fear Allah." He did not say fear the mullahs, or the imams, or the yogis, or the priests, or the sheiks!
Maybe some of our folks are directing their fear elsewhere...
1. Ismaili Ginans are sacred. So much so that I heard from someone (may have been one of the really good Al-Waez) that even MHI listens to them (at low volume levels) while He goes about doing His work in His office.
2. Ismaili Ginans are sacred because they were entirely composed by Ismaili Pirs who have always been spiritually close to the Ismaili Imams. So, the logic goes, since the Pirs composed Ginans (whether to depart critical spiritual knowledge to already existing Ismailis or to introduce and invite the then Hindus to Ismailism), then only the Imam has the ultimate authority to change this treasure. Why? Because today's Pir is our Living Imam.
3. Ismaili Ginans are sacred because they come from pure spiritual masters, meaning the Pirs. Since some of the Ginans were composed and recited with the Hindu culture musical instruments (tanpur, tabla, etc), then those same Ginans should also be recited (or performed) in the same exact manner to keep its full impact as it was meant to be. However, I have heard about, but not yet seen, MHI's farman or directive indicating musical instruments should not be used in JK. However I have not heard of any Farmans or directives, nor seen one, that indicates musical instruments CANNOT be used with Ginans anywhere outside of JK. That would naturally mean peaceful music performed with Ginans to support its message is nothing to shy away from.
4. Ismaili Ginans, with their sacredness and timely signposts and warnings of the trappings of the material world, ultimately express a deep and profound passion for the Beloved. In other words, it's the soul's yearning for the Divine Love. What else could help create and maintain writhing shivers and intoxicating ecstacy for the Ultimate Divine Love other than the peaceful yet powerful vibrations created by music to simply bring a rational man to tears in recognizition of his soul being separated from His Soul? MSMS (a.s.) in Usul-i-Din (1899) states that "Our Faith is the way of the Sufi" (paraphrased). In just about every Sufi school of thought, music is an integral part of feeling when invoking the pleasures of the Beloved. MSMS (a.s.) had even referred to Himself as a "Dervesh" when referring to Himself underneath His european style clothing.
5. So I come to my final point. Ismaili Ginans are sacred indeed. MHI (a.s.) has referred to them as the "Wonderful Tradition". So it seems that Imam is quite aware of this tradition and wishes for us to have it and to teach it to our future generations. Additionally, He is quite aware of the wordings of these Ginans as He is All Knowing (and literally listens to them while working). Doesn't it make simple logical sense to honor and keep the Ginans just the way they are and invest those resources into finding out more about the backgrounds of the Ginans, their context, in what sort of setting they are composed, etc., instead of trying so desparately hard in using our limited institutional resources to attempt to make changes to the sacred wordings?
Final thought I wish to share. People talk about political and religious oppression. Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, Russia, and other nations have them. But there are countries in the West that have very limited, if any, religious limitations. Yet, it becomes so very obvious that despite openness of religious expression in a Western country, we have "religious opressors" right here within our own community who are afraid, for some reason that only God can understand, that our faith is somehow looked upon as a faith that contains Hinduism. Hello mr. institutional leader??! Were you asleep to learn that our Hindu forefathers were invited to and accepted the Ismaili Tariqa and were then referred to as the Khojas? Do you not listen to our Tasbih in Paki and Indi JKs that are predominately in either Urdu, Gujrati, Hindi, etc? Should it be fully in Arabic? What's next? Changing the Ginan wordings to Arabic so that Paki Jamat doesn't sound like Pakis or Indians??
When Hazrat Ali (a.s.) wrote a very touching letter to His son to try to teach him about life and the hereafter, the very first point He stressed in that incredibly moving letter was"...first and foremost, fear Allah." He did not say fear the mullahs, or the imams, or the yogis, or the priests, or the sheiks!
Maybe some of our folks are directing their fear elsewhere...
This is information I got from another forum.
Mawlana Hazar Imam sent a cable message in Pakistan dated 14th October, 1968 to the President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan. It was read in the Jamatkhanas on 14th November, 1968. It reads:-
My dear President,
I would like you to make sure that Ginans without music are recited at Mehfils, Assemblies and other functions.
Your affectionately,
***
There is yet another Talika, dated 9th January, 1966, addressed by Mowlana Hazar Imam to the President, Ismailia Association for India containing the
following message:
"I do not wish you to hold Ginan-e-Mehfil with Music in public places."
Akber
Aga Khan
Mawlana Hazar Imam sent a cable message in Pakistan dated 14th October, 1968 to the President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan. It was read in the Jamatkhanas on 14th November, 1968. It reads:-
My dear President,
I would like you to make sure that Ginans without music are recited at Mehfils, Assemblies and other functions.
Your affectionately,
***
There is yet another Talika, dated 9th January, 1966, addressed by Mowlana Hazar Imam to the President, Ismailia Association for India containing the
following message:
"I do not wish you to hold Ginan-e-Mehfil with Music in public places."
Akber
Aga Khan
I doubt there is any such farman. The authenticity/integrity/interpretation of this quote can be questioned since we know from recent history that Imam has encouraged and attended ginans with music in public, outside the Jamat and with the Jamat, several times.
These encouragement of the present Imam are also in line with the message of Sultan Muhammad Shah in that Souvenir book which I have read.
Even Abeeda Parween told me in October 2000 at the Marriot in Karachi that Hazar Imam has commanded her to recite the ginans more and more as she does and you may know she does it in public and with music.
Nagib
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These encouragement of the present Imam are also in line with the message of Sultan Muhammad Shah in that Souvenir book which I have read.
Even Abeeda Parween told me in October 2000 at the Marriot in Karachi that Hazar Imam has commanded her to recite the ginans more and more as she does and you may know she does it in public and with music.
Nagib
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Nagib, the talika was quoted by Mumtaz Ali Tajdin in another forum. You may want to find out more about it from him.nagib wrote:I doubt there is any such farman. The authenticity/integrity/interpretation of this quote can be questioned since we know from recent history that Imam has encouraged and attended ginans with music in public, outside the Jamat and with the Jamat, several times.
Nagib
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