Who was the true spiritual successor to Jesus?
Wasi it Simon Peter...or was it really James the Just, Jesus' brother?
More recent evidence suggests that the Imam was actually James the Just, to whom even Peter obeyed.
The Imam of Jesus Period?
What recent evidence? i am curious to know the sources? There are also sources which show that Hazrat Ali was obeying to the prophet, in particular when sigining an agreement, Hazrat Ali did not want to remove the mention "prophet of God" near the name of Muhammad but the prophet forced him to do so and he "obeyed".
All Ismaili texts that I have read talk of Shamun al-Safa, Simon Peter.
Nagib
All Ismaili texts that I have read talk of Shamun al-Safa, Simon Peter.
Nagib
there is much evidence...
- james was jesus brother or half brother
- James was the legitimate Aaronic High Priest at the ts.ime, as opposed to the corrupt priests appointed by the roman
- also shows James was appointed by Jesus himself.
- heaven and earth came into being for james' sake
- that position of james greatly parallels Shia notions of the Imam
- in 70 AD, the descendants of James fled to Arabia
- peter and the rest of the early christians acknowledged james as his superior
- the jew-chrisitan doctrine of james and his group believes in jesus as a prophet of god.
yes, i know ismaili texts speak of Peter, however, their sources were restricted, especially because the bible has been doctored and censured, as James himself has been supressed from the gospels.
i will soon be posting info from actual sources.
we should all keep an open mind for this, as the period of jesus is mostly a mystery.
- james was jesus brother or half brother
- James was the legitimate Aaronic High Priest at the ts.ime, as opposed to the corrupt priests appointed by the roman
- also shows James was appointed by Jesus himself.
- heaven and earth came into being for james' sake
- that position of james greatly parallels Shia notions of the Imam
- in 70 AD, the descendants of James fled to Arabia
- peter and the rest of the early christians acknowledged james as his superior
- the jew-chrisitan doctrine of james and his group believes in jesus as a prophet of god.
yes, i know ismaili texts speak of Peter, however, their sources were restricted, especially because the bible has been doctored and censured, as James himself has been supressed from the gospels.
i will soon be posting info from actual sources.
we should all keep an open mind for this, as the period of jesus is mostly a mystery.
<P>kandani:<BR>Earlier you wrote: "<FONT size=2>More recent evidence suggests...." and then later you even wrote to nagib's response<BR>that "there is much evidence..." but you never stated in writing what "recent" evidence or "much" evidence<BR> you are referring to? <BR><BR>and then you wrote..."i will soon be posting info from actual sources...we should all keep an<BR> open mind for this, as the period of jesus is mostly a mystery..."<BR></FONT><BR>and nagib: "can you too please state in writing when you wrote "..and there are sources...." which "sources" are you referring to?<BR><BR>In this way, we ALL (readers) can be enlightened with your knowledge...<BR><BR>The fact that kandani wrote that he or she will be posting info from actual source way BACK in<BR>in Nov. 23 kind of puts us all in a tail spin so to say. so kandani, can you corroborate your <BR>writings with references like: author's name, publisher's name (if its a book), date of book publishing and so forth...<BR><BR>I am sure we are ALL looking forward to your valuable addition on these statements....<BR><BR> </P>
I am currently working on putting all the information together.
To comment on Jesus period, we must also find out what happened in the centuy preceding him.
I have collectd much information, but now i am in the process of organizing it in a logical manner.
Also, everytime i post, not many reply, and it usually becomes a one on one convo between me and nagib. i encourage all interested, whether you are knowledgable or not, to post your thoughts and comments.
To comment on Jesus period, we must also find out what happened in the centuy preceding him.
I have collectd much information, but now i am in the process of organizing it in a logical manner.
Also, everytime i post, not many reply, and it usually becomes a one on one convo between me and nagib. i encourage all interested, whether you are knowledgable or not, to post your thoughts and comments.
I will be out of town for few weeks and will only be able to check this site intermittently so let me say this:
james was from the lineage of Isaac but no Imam can be from that lineage [at least through father line] as the Imam is to be from the lineage of Ismail, not Isaac.
Not to forget that Peter had the same role with Jesus as Aaroon had for Moise [i.e. Aaron was doing the miracles and so did Peter-Shamun al Safa]
Also we do have a Declaration of Qiyamah made by Peter which again points to him being Imam.
we have sources equating Peter with Khuzema and Shamun Al Safa but I have seen none equating Shamun al-Safa the Imam with James.
Nagib
james was from the lineage of Isaac but no Imam can be from that lineage [at least through father line] as the Imam is to be from the lineage of Ismail, not Isaac.
Not to forget that Peter had the same role with Jesus as Aaroon had for Moise [i.e. Aaron was doing the miracles and so did Peter-Shamun al Safa]
Also we do have a Declaration of Qiyamah made by Peter which again points to him being Imam.
we have sources equating Peter with Khuzema and Shamun Al Safa but I have seen none equating Shamun al-Safa the Imam with James.
Nagib
"james was from the lineage of Isaac but no Imam can be from that lineage [at least through father line] as the Imam is to be from the lineage of Ismail, not Isaac. "
- we have evidence that James was from the lineage of Haroon. Haroon, as you have proven, has lineage from Ismael. Therefore, James is from Ismael's line not Isaac's.
"Not to forget that Peter had the same role with Jesus as Aaroon had for Moise [i.e. Aaron was doing the miracles and so did Peter-Shamun al Safa] "
- what source is this from? Simon Peter did not perform the miracles..Jesus did. Simon was merely a witness to the miracles.
Also, regarding Aaron to Moses, James fits this better because he and Jesus were brothers (or half-brothers) just like Moses and Aaron. Also, Aaron was the High Priest, but Simon Peter was not.
"Also we do have a Declaration of Qiyamah made by Peter which again points to him being Imam. "
- once again i ask what source this is from. I have seen no evidence of such a Qiyama being declared. Also, a Qiyama would not be in that period because the 6 Prophets were still laying down a Sharia. Qiyama would not be declared by the Asas of a Prophet since the Sharia had just been declared by the Prophet.
"we have sources equating Peter with Khuzema and Shamun Al Safa but I have seen none equating Shamun al-Safa the Imam with James. "
- Khuzaymah and Peter are totally different. Khuzaymah was the 15th ancestor of Ali and Adnan was the 21st ancestor of Ali. Jesus and Peter came before both of these men.
James was the Leader of early Christianity. Peter was taking orders from James. No Ismaili sources speak of James because he was written out of the Bible and his leadership was covered up, much like what happend to Imam Haroon when ppl followed the calf, and like Imam Ali, when ppl followed Abu Bakr.
I am sure that had information been available to them, our sources would have equated Shamun al-Saffa with James, instead of Simon Peter or Khuzeymah.
I will soon be posting information of James the Just. I am sure you will be surprised after reading this information.
- we have evidence that James was from the lineage of Haroon. Haroon, as you have proven, has lineage from Ismael. Therefore, James is from Ismael's line not Isaac's.
"Not to forget that Peter had the same role with Jesus as Aaroon had for Moise [i.e. Aaron was doing the miracles and so did Peter-Shamun al Safa] "
- what source is this from? Simon Peter did not perform the miracles..Jesus did. Simon was merely a witness to the miracles.
Also, regarding Aaron to Moses, James fits this better because he and Jesus were brothers (or half-brothers) just like Moses and Aaron. Also, Aaron was the High Priest, but Simon Peter was not.
"Also we do have a Declaration of Qiyamah made by Peter which again points to him being Imam. "
- once again i ask what source this is from. I have seen no evidence of such a Qiyama being declared. Also, a Qiyama would not be in that period because the 6 Prophets were still laying down a Sharia. Qiyama would not be declared by the Asas of a Prophet since the Sharia had just been declared by the Prophet.
"we have sources equating Peter with Khuzema and Shamun Al Safa but I have seen none equating Shamun al-Safa the Imam with James. "
- Khuzaymah and Peter are totally different. Khuzaymah was the 15th ancestor of Ali and Adnan was the 21st ancestor of Ali. Jesus and Peter came before both of these men.
James was the Leader of early Christianity. Peter was taking orders from James. No Ismaili sources speak of James because he was written out of the Bible and his leadership was covered up, much like what happend to Imam Haroon when ppl followed the calf, and like Imam Ali, when ppl followed Abu Bakr.
I am sure that had information been available to them, our sources would have equated Shamun al-Saffa with James, instead of Simon Peter or Khuzeymah.
I will soon be posting information of James the Just. I am sure you will be surprised after reading this information.
Heres the evidence i promised about James
JAMES the Brother of JESUS:
James appointed Successor by Jesus:
The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."”
- The Gospel of Thomas 12
“Thomas description of James as ‘for whose sake Heaven and Earth came into existance’ is related to the one in the Zohar above about the Zaddik being the ‘Pillar that upholds the world…a Perfect Copy of the Heavenly ideal….The reader will recognize in this something equivalent to what goes by the name of ‘the Logos’ or ‘the Word’ in the Gospel of John above. There is also something very akin to it in what goes by the name in Shiite Islam of ‘the Imam’ doctrine. All these terms have common aspects and are more or less equivalent.”
- Robert Eisanmen in his book, James the Brother of Jesus
“The Church of the Lord which was constituted in Jerusalem multiplied most plentifully and grew, being governed with the most Righteous ordinances by James, who was ordained Bishop in it by the Lord (Jesus).”
- Recognitions 1:43
“After the Resurrection, the Lord imparted the gift of Knowledge to James the Just and John and Peter. These gave it to the other Apostles and the other Apostles gave it to the Seventy, of whom Barnabas was one.”
- Eusebius quoting Clement of Alexandria, from his Seventh Book of Hypotyposes
“James, who as the Sacred Scriptures show, was generally called the brother of Christ, was the First to receive the Episcopate of Jerusalem from our Saviour himself.”
- Eusebius, in Book Seven of his work History
“His [Joseph’s] firstborn was James, surnamed "Oblias ", meaning "wall", and also surnamed "Just", who was a Nazarite, which means holy man. He was the first to receive the bishop's chair, the first to whom the Lord (Jesus) entrusted his throne upon earth.”
- Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in The Panarion 78.6-8
James being full of Righteousness:
“And these things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, for the Jews put him to death, notwithstanding his pre-eminent Righteousness.”
- Quoted by Origen, Eusebius, and Jerome from Josephus’ work The War
“The wonderful thing is, that though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the Righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought they had suffered these things because of what had been done to James.”
- Origin referring to Jewish historian Josephus and James the Just, in his Commentary on the Gospel of Mathew
The great Righteousness attributed to James is meaningful since the Imam of the time is infallible and is supremely righteous in all aspects. It should also be pointed out that the Melchizedek, the Imam contemporary with Abraham, his name means King of Righteousness. The High Priest Zadok, who was the Imam contemporary with David, his name means Righteous. The same title, Zadok or Zaddik, was applied to James, thus he was known as James the Just (or Righteous). James’ reputation for purity and righteousness was so great that the destruction of Jerusalem was attributed to his death, not that of Jesus.
James as the legitimate High Priest of this time:
“But we find further that he also exercised the Priesthood according to the Ancient Priesthood. For this reason he was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies once a year, as Scripture says the Law ordered the High Priests. He was also allowed to wear the High Priestly diadem on his head as the aforementioned trustworthy men – Eusebius, Clement, and others – have related in their accounts.”
- from the writings of Epiphanies, from early Church testimonies
In Israelite tradition, the High Priest-Imam of the time would enter the Temple Holy of Holies once a year to pray on behalf of the people. This was a privilege reserved for High Priests only. It is interesting to note that James the Just was the one who performed this Priestly duty during his time. It is also worth noting that James wore the High Priestly diadem on his head, a symbolic gesture that goes back to the time of Aaron the High Priest. According to the above account, it was James who took on such Priestly responsibilities and performed them according to the ancient customs of Aaron and his children. This greatly supports the fact that James was the High Priest and legitimate Imam of Jesus’ time.
“He alone was allowed to enter into the Place of Holiness, for he did not wear wool, but linen, and he used to enter the Temple alone, and was often found upon his bended knees, interceding for the forgiveness of the people…”
- Eusebius quoting the text of Hegesippus
In his capacity as High Priest, James was recorded as providing intercession on behalf of the people. The concept of the intercessory prayers is trademark to the High Priest and this practice continues in the present day. The Imam of the time prays on behalf of his followers according to the same principle.
“To James alone was it allowed to enter once a year into the holy of holies, because he was a Nazarite and connected to the Priesthood. Hence Mary was related in two ways to Elizabeth, and James was a distinguished member of the Priesthood, because the two tribes alone were linked to one another, the royal tribe to the priestly one and the priestly to the royal. James also wore a diadem (the sacred plate) on his head.”
- Panarion 78
“…just as earlier in the time of Exodus, Nahshon, the scion from the tribe of Judah, took to wife a previous Elizabeth daughter of Aaron.”
In the words of Robert Eisanmen, this “parallels the Talmudic tradition about the “sons of the Rechabites marrying the daughers of the High Priests or vice versa…Exodus has Elizabeth as Aaron’s wife and Nahshson’s sister, not Nahshon’s wife and Aaron’s sister, reflecting these reversals concerning sons and daughters of the High Priests in Talmudic traditions.”
The requirement of being the High Priest was that one had to be a direct descendant of Aaron through the line of Zadok. Talmudic information shows that the daughers of the Rechabites married the sons of the High Priests, and the resulting progeny did service in the Temple. James’ maternal lineage was Rechabite – Royal through David’s line, which was responsible for his ascetic lifestyle, while his paternal lineage was Priestly through Zadokite descent. The Royal-Prophetic function of David was assumed by Jesus, the Prophet while the Priestly-Imamic function of Zadok was assumed by James, the Imam.
"Our Lord and Prophet, who has sent us, declared to us that the Evil One [that is, 'the Devil'], having disputed with him for forty days, but failing to prevail against him, promised that he would send Apostles from among his subjects to deceive them. Therefore, above all, remember to shun any apostle, teacher, or prophet who does not accurately compare his teaching with James...and this, even if he comes to you with recommendations,"
- (non-canonical 'Homilies of Clement' 11.35, Peter preaching at Tripoli
It is evident that Simon Peter fully submitted to the authority of James, as did all the other Christians of the time.
“Peter, James, and John after the Ascension of the Savior, did not contend for the Glory, even though they had previously been honoured by the Savior, but chose James the Just as Bishop of Jerusalem.”
- Eusebius quoting Clement of Alexandria, from his Sixth Book of Hypotyposes
“So James, Peter, and John, those reckoned to be Pillars, being aware of the Grace which was given to me, shook hands with Barnabas and me in fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles, while they go to the circumcision.”
- Paul’s letter to the Galations (2:9)
“this same James, who was the first Bishop of Jerusalem and known as Justus, was considered to be so Holy by the People that they earnestly sought to touch the hem of his clothing.”
- Jerome, Commentary of Galations, p. 396
The Holiness of James resembles the Purity and Holiness of High Priesthood, as was revealed in Moses time.
The Imamat continued in Arabia:
“The actual Imamate seems to have been conferred on James by Jesus, for we find James taking a leadership role in the church at Jerusalem after the occultation of Jesus. The successors of James fled from Jerusalem into Arabia in AD 70 where they kept the faith in obscurity until the coming of the Prophet Muhammad.”
- Thomas McElwain in his book, “Islam in the Bible”
“James was erased from the records. James' descendants (and therefore Jesus' descendants) in Palestine, the so called "disposyni", were dispersed and persecuted. Eventually the Roman empire forced "its" version of Christianity on the whole world. The disposyni migrated south, the only place where they could avoid the persecution, and eventually settled in Arabia. Centuries later, their culture would originate Islam, and one of Islam's tenets would be that ‘evil people changed the books’.”
- from “A Simple Theory of Jesus and Christianity” by Piero Scaruffi
In 70 AD, the Jewish Temple was destroyed, and the descendants of James, the probable Imams, fled to Arabia. From this lineage, come the 21 popular ancestors of Muhammad - Adnan, Maad, etc..all the way to Abu Talib, who passed on the Imamat to Hazrat Ali.
The leadership of the Jerusalem Church was then entrusted to Jesus’ couisins and relatives: Symeon, Justus, Zacchaeus, Tobias, Benjamin, John, Matthias, Philip, Seneca, Justus, Levi, Ephres, Joseph, and finally Judas in 132 AD. Eventually, the Entrusted Imamat would make its way to Monk Bahira, who then passed it on to Prophet Muhammad.
James appointed Successor by Jesus:
The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?" Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."”
- The Gospel of Thomas 12
“Thomas description of James as ‘for whose sake Heaven and Earth came into existance’ is related to the one in the Zohar above about the Zaddik being the ‘Pillar that upholds the world…a Perfect Copy of the Heavenly ideal….The reader will recognize in this something equivalent to what goes by the name of ‘the Logos’ or ‘the Word’ in the Gospel of John above. There is also something very akin to it in what goes by the name in Shiite Islam of ‘the Imam’ doctrine. All these terms have common aspects and are more or less equivalent.”
- Robert Eisanmen in his book, James the Brother of Jesus
“The Church of the Lord which was constituted in Jerusalem multiplied most plentifully and grew, being governed with the most Righteous ordinances by James, who was ordained Bishop in it by the Lord (Jesus).”
- Recognitions 1:43
“After the Resurrection, the Lord imparted the gift of Knowledge to James the Just and John and Peter. These gave it to the other Apostles and the other Apostles gave it to the Seventy, of whom Barnabas was one.”
- Eusebius quoting Clement of Alexandria, from his Seventh Book of Hypotyposes
“James, who as the Sacred Scriptures show, was generally called the brother of Christ, was the First to receive the Episcopate of Jerusalem from our Saviour himself.”
- Eusebius, in Book Seven of his work History
“His [Joseph’s] firstborn was James, surnamed "Oblias ", meaning "wall", and also surnamed "Just", who was a Nazarite, which means holy man. He was the first to receive the bishop's chair, the first to whom the Lord (Jesus) entrusted his throne upon earth.”
- Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in The Panarion 78.6-8
James being full of Righteousness:
“And these things happened to the Jews to avenge James the Just, who was the brother of Jesus, the so-called Christ, for the Jews put him to death, notwithstanding his pre-eminent Righteousness.”
- Quoted by Origen, Eusebius, and Jerome from Josephus’ work The War
“The wonderful thing is, that though he did not accept Jesus as Christ, he yet gave testimony that the Righteousness of James was so great; and he says that the people thought they had suffered these things because of what had been done to James.”
- Origin referring to Jewish historian Josephus and James the Just, in his Commentary on the Gospel of Mathew
The great Righteousness attributed to James is meaningful since the Imam of the time is infallible and is supremely righteous in all aspects. It should also be pointed out that the Melchizedek, the Imam contemporary with Abraham, his name means King of Righteousness. The High Priest Zadok, who was the Imam contemporary with David, his name means Righteous. The same title, Zadok or Zaddik, was applied to James, thus he was known as James the Just (or Righteous). James’ reputation for purity and righteousness was so great that the destruction of Jerusalem was attributed to his death, not that of Jesus.
James as the legitimate High Priest of this time:
“But we find further that he also exercised the Priesthood according to the Ancient Priesthood. For this reason he was permitted to enter the Holy of Holies once a year, as Scripture says the Law ordered the High Priests. He was also allowed to wear the High Priestly diadem on his head as the aforementioned trustworthy men – Eusebius, Clement, and others – have related in their accounts.”
- from the writings of Epiphanies, from early Church testimonies
In Israelite tradition, the High Priest-Imam of the time would enter the Temple Holy of Holies once a year to pray on behalf of the people. This was a privilege reserved for High Priests only. It is interesting to note that James the Just was the one who performed this Priestly duty during his time. It is also worth noting that James wore the High Priestly diadem on his head, a symbolic gesture that goes back to the time of Aaron the High Priest. According to the above account, it was James who took on such Priestly responsibilities and performed them according to the ancient customs of Aaron and his children. This greatly supports the fact that James was the High Priest and legitimate Imam of Jesus’ time.
“He alone was allowed to enter into the Place of Holiness, for he did not wear wool, but linen, and he used to enter the Temple alone, and was often found upon his bended knees, interceding for the forgiveness of the people…”
- Eusebius quoting the text of Hegesippus
In his capacity as High Priest, James was recorded as providing intercession on behalf of the people. The concept of the intercessory prayers is trademark to the High Priest and this practice continues in the present day. The Imam of the time prays on behalf of his followers according to the same principle.
“To James alone was it allowed to enter once a year into the holy of holies, because he was a Nazarite and connected to the Priesthood. Hence Mary was related in two ways to Elizabeth, and James was a distinguished member of the Priesthood, because the two tribes alone were linked to one another, the royal tribe to the priestly one and the priestly to the royal. James also wore a diadem (the sacred plate) on his head.”
- Panarion 78
“…just as earlier in the time of Exodus, Nahshon, the scion from the tribe of Judah, took to wife a previous Elizabeth daughter of Aaron.”
In the words of Robert Eisanmen, this “parallels the Talmudic tradition about the “sons of the Rechabites marrying the daughers of the High Priests or vice versa…Exodus has Elizabeth as Aaron’s wife and Nahshson’s sister, not Nahshon’s wife and Aaron’s sister, reflecting these reversals concerning sons and daughters of the High Priests in Talmudic traditions.”
The requirement of being the High Priest was that one had to be a direct descendant of Aaron through the line of Zadok. Talmudic information shows that the daughers of the Rechabites married the sons of the High Priests, and the resulting progeny did service in the Temple. James’ maternal lineage was Rechabite – Royal through David’s line, which was responsible for his ascetic lifestyle, while his paternal lineage was Priestly through Zadokite descent. The Royal-Prophetic function of David was assumed by Jesus, the Prophet while the Priestly-Imamic function of Zadok was assumed by James, the Imam.
"Our Lord and Prophet, who has sent us, declared to us that the Evil One [that is, 'the Devil'], having disputed with him for forty days, but failing to prevail against him, promised that he would send Apostles from among his subjects to deceive them. Therefore, above all, remember to shun any apostle, teacher, or prophet who does not accurately compare his teaching with James...and this, even if he comes to you with recommendations,"
- (non-canonical 'Homilies of Clement' 11.35, Peter preaching at Tripoli
It is evident that Simon Peter fully submitted to the authority of James, as did all the other Christians of the time.
“Peter, James, and John after the Ascension of the Savior, did not contend for the Glory, even though they had previously been honoured by the Savior, but chose James the Just as Bishop of Jerusalem.”
- Eusebius quoting Clement of Alexandria, from his Sixth Book of Hypotyposes
“So James, Peter, and John, those reckoned to be Pillars, being aware of the Grace which was given to me, shook hands with Barnabas and me in fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles, while they go to the circumcision.”
- Paul’s letter to the Galations (2:9)
“this same James, who was the first Bishop of Jerusalem and known as Justus, was considered to be so Holy by the People that they earnestly sought to touch the hem of his clothing.”
- Jerome, Commentary of Galations, p. 396
The Holiness of James resembles the Purity and Holiness of High Priesthood, as was revealed in Moses time.
The Imamat continued in Arabia:
“The actual Imamate seems to have been conferred on James by Jesus, for we find James taking a leadership role in the church at Jerusalem after the occultation of Jesus. The successors of James fled from Jerusalem into Arabia in AD 70 where they kept the faith in obscurity until the coming of the Prophet Muhammad.”
- Thomas McElwain in his book, “Islam in the Bible”
“James was erased from the records. James' descendants (and therefore Jesus' descendants) in Palestine, the so called "disposyni", were dispersed and persecuted. Eventually the Roman empire forced "its" version of Christianity on the whole world. The disposyni migrated south, the only place where they could avoid the persecution, and eventually settled in Arabia. Centuries later, their culture would originate Islam, and one of Islam's tenets would be that ‘evil people changed the books’.”
- from “A Simple Theory of Jesus and Christianity” by Piero Scaruffi
In 70 AD, the Jewish Temple was destroyed, and the descendants of James, the probable Imams, fled to Arabia. From this lineage, come the 21 popular ancestors of Muhammad - Adnan, Maad, etc..all the way to Abu Talib, who passed on the Imamat to Hazrat Ali.
The leadership of the Jerusalem Church was then entrusted to Jesus’ couisins and relatives: Symeon, Justus, Zacchaeus, Tobias, Benjamin, John, Matthias, Philip, Seneca, Justus, Levi, Ephres, Joseph, and finally Judas in 132 AD. Eventually, the Entrusted Imamat would make its way to Monk Bahira, who then passed it on to Prophet Muhammad.
Peter as the Imam
I am not that knowledgable in this but as far as i have learnt and read
Moses never appointed Aaron as the Imam..Prophet never appoints Imam..reveals who the Imam is...thus Jesus being the prophet/pir couldn't have appointed his brother James as the Imam..james either was the Imam or wasn't.
moses appointed Joshua to take our his minstry from him..just as Jesus appointed james..at the same time the Quran tells us that Jesus was never crucified but it was made to appear to the people that he was so we don't know what happened to Jesus..rumors have it that he either went to China or to India and lived to a ripe old age.
Simon Peter (i could be wrong here) was rumored to never lie..when he was asked if he was the follower of christ..he denied it..because in the hidden sense, he wasn't a follower..he was the leader.
When we talk about the bible and the doctoring of the bible, let's not forget that the bible is a compilation of various books that King James and the popes found favorable to their causes at the time of the compilation..many many books were left out of the bible..the images of Mary Magdelene was changed from being a prime disciple to being a prostitute when she hailed from the House of Benjamin that was a royal house...
There are other books/versions of the bible within the Dead Sea scrolls which are being suppressed for fear that it will overthrow the current roman catholic hierarchy(i've been surfing to too many conspiracy websites
) 
Moses never appointed Aaron as the Imam..Prophet never appoints Imam..reveals who the Imam is...thus Jesus being the prophet/pir couldn't have appointed his brother James as the Imam..james either was the Imam or wasn't.
moses appointed Joshua to take our his minstry from him..just as Jesus appointed james..at the same time the Quran tells us that Jesus was never crucified but it was made to appear to the people that he was so we don't know what happened to Jesus..rumors have it that he either went to China or to India and lived to a ripe old age.
Simon Peter (i could be wrong here) was rumored to never lie..when he was asked if he was the follower of christ..he denied it..because in the hidden sense, he wasn't a follower..he was the leader.
When we talk about the bible and the doctoring of the bible, let's not forget that the bible is a compilation of various books that King James and the popes found favorable to their causes at the time of the compilation..many many books were left out of the bible..the images of Mary Magdelene was changed from being a prime disciple to being a prostitute when she hailed from the House of Benjamin that was a royal house...
There are other books/versions of the bible within the Dead Sea scrolls which are being suppressed for fear that it will overthrow the current roman catholic hierarchy(i've been surfing to too many conspiracy websites
) James/Jesus not from lineage of Aaron
In my opinion James couldn't have been from the lineage of Aaron for the simple reason that James/Jesus and Aaron/Moses belonged to different tribes.
James/Jesus were from the Tribe of Judah - tracing their descent directly back to David whilst Aaron/Moses were from the Tribe of Levi - the tribe of priests.
This is heavily documented in the Bible.
But then since the birth of Jesus was a miracle, I don't know if he actually did belong to a tribe thru birth.
James/Jesus were from the Tribe of Judah - tracing their descent directly back to David whilst Aaron/Moses were from the Tribe of Levi - the tribe of priests.
This is heavily documented in the Bible.
But then since the birth of Jesus was a miracle, I don't know if he actually did belong to a tribe thru birth.
Successor to Jesus - Nasiruddin Tusi's views
Pir Sadardin in his old Ghat Paat Dua mentioned Shamunsaffa (Simon Peter) as the successor to Jesus. That for me solves the mystery. According to my understanding of a Pir, he is a universal soul and therefore he would know the mind and circumstance of the life of Jesus through means not available to mortals like myself.
The following is an excerpt from Nasiruddin Tusi's Tasawwurat on the historical role of Imams in relation to the prophets (law givers). This will illuminate many of the issues that have been raised.
Every prophet, peace be upon all of them, has had an executor (vasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly rooted by virtue of stability, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been entrusted through trusteeship (istida). The reason there exists such an executorship is that during the time of each prophet the legitimate Imams, may greetings be upon mention of them, [saw fit] for the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as executors of that prophet.
Adam's executor was Shayth. Shayth has been called the son of Adam. The traces of that knowledge that God taught Adam, and the lights of those words through which Adam's repentance was accepted, were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that executorship has and will continue in the progeny of Shayth: "a progeny, one after another. (3:31)" till the end of the life of the world.
Noah's executor was Sam, and Sam is called the son of Noah. Abraham's executor was Malik al-Salaam, sacred is mention of him, and he is called the son of Abraham. Moses' executor was Zul-Qarnayn; he was called Aaron and was more famous by this name.
Since Aaron was destined to be the executor of Moses and he died in Moses' lifetime, and since Moses had to entrust the executorship to the sons of Aaron and Aaron's two boys were infants, [Moses] employed Yusha'ibn Nun (Joshua) to the executorship and entrusted [to him] the secrets of guardianship (valayat), so that he could hand them over to Aaron's sons. The wisdom in that was so that the benefit in making a designation(nass), which is how the succession continues, might become clear.
Jesus' executor was Maadd, may greetings be upon mention of him. He is also called Simon the Pure (Sham'un al- Safa), and he was more famous by this name. Muhammad's executor was Maulana Ali, may greetings be upon mention of him.
The following is an excerpt from Nasiruddin Tusi's Tasawwurat on the historical role of Imams in relation to the prophets (law givers). This will illuminate many of the issues that have been raised.
Every prophet, peace be upon all of them, has had an executor (vasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly rooted by virtue of stability, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been entrusted through trusteeship (istida). The reason there exists such an executorship is that during the time of each prophet the legitimate Imams, may greetings be upon mention of them, [saw fit] for the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as executors of that prophet.
Adam's executor was Shayth. Shayth has been called the son of Adam. The traces of that knowledge that God taught Adam, and the lights of those words through which Adam's repentance was accepted, were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that executorship has and will continue in the progeny of Shayth: "a progeny, one after another. (3:31)" till the end of the life of the world.
Noah's executor was Sam, and Sam is called the son of Noah. Abraham's executor was Malik al-Salaam, sacred is mention of him, and he is called the son of Abraham. Moses' executor was Zul-Qarnayn; he was called Aaron and was more famous by this name.
Since Aaron was destined to be the executor of Moses and he died in Moses' lifetime, and since Moses had to entrust the executorship to the sons of Aaron and Aaron's two boys were infants, [Moses] employed Yusha'ibn Nun (Joshua) to the executorship and entrusted [to him] the secrets of guardianship (valayat), so that he could hand them over to Aaron's sons. The wisdom in that was so that the benefit in making a designation(nass), which is how the succession continues, might become clear.
Jesus' executor was Maadd, may greetings be upon mention of him. He is also called Simon the Pure (Sham'un al- Safa), and he was more famous by this name. Muhammad's executor was Maulana Ali, may greetings be upon mention of him.
Sorry for the delay in replying. Here are the sources:kandani wrote: "Not to forget that Peter had the same role with Jesus as Aaroon had for Moise [i.e. Aaron was doing the miracles and so did Peter-Shamun al Safa] "
- what source is this from? Simon Peter did not perform the miracles..Jesus did.
"Also we do have a Declaration of Qiyamah made by Peter which again points to him being Imam. "
- once again i ask what source this is from.
"we have sources equating Peter with Khuzema and Shamun Al Safa but I have seen none equating Shamun al-Safa the Imam with James. "
- Khuzaymah and Peter are totally different. Khuzaymah was the 15th ancestor of Ali and Adnan was the 21st ancestor of Ali. Jesus and Peter came before both of these men.
I am sure that had information been available to them, our sources would have equated Shamun al-Saffa with James, instead of Simon Peter or Khuzeymah.
About James: according to Marc 3:21 and John 7:15 James did not accept the authority of Jesus before the resurrection.
About Simon Peter being also called Khuzaima, please refer to Abu Firas [Ash Shafiyah's author 16th century, also quoted in Temps Cyclique of Corbin, page 198, 199, French Version.] By the way he mentions that Simon Peter appointed Mary as Pir [Hujjat].
About Simon Peter doing miracles, see the Apocryphal Gospel from the Nag Hamadi Collection under Peter Acts 5:15 people sikness was removed from people who came under Simon Peter's shade.
On Simon Peter declaring the Great Resurrection, everyone was blessed by Divine Vision brought by Simon Peter on Mount Thabor, commented also in Temps Cyclique page 70 by Corbin.
On Simon Peter being the principal preacher, even before Pencoastal [I am not sure how it's written, in French it is Pentecote] he leads the community and was also the preacher and spokesman before the Jewish authority.
Hope this clarifies that Simon Peter=Shamun-al-Safa=Khuzaima was the Imam during the Period of Jesus. He may or may not be the same khuzaima. He was performing miracles also [though this is not a condition to be Imam, but I am mentionning that as I was asked the source]
My thanks for the sources to Nargis Mawjee who was kind enough to go back to the quoted sources to find the page numbers and verses numbers as my time did not allow me the research... Also all this will be expanded in her forthcoming book..
Nagib
----------------
Shamun al-Safa means Simon the Pure.
- According to Henry Corbin, the Wasi-Imam with Jesus was Shamun al-Safa, under which, he says, Ismailies read the name Simon bar Kepha (Simon Peter of the Bible) along with other names, including Mary of Magdalena.
- according to Willian Muirs Life of Mahomet, Imam Adnaan ruled in Arabia at about 500 BC or so, and was invaded by the Babylonians. He was taken captive but his son Imam Maad escaped to safety.
- the name order in the Old Dua is as follows: Haroon (Aaron), Shamunsaffa (Simon the Pure), Adnan, Maad,...Khuzaymah..etc.
How historical should we take these names to be?
- According to the same book, Cyclical Times, Henry Corbin says that each Prophet had an awakener Imam that trained him. He goes on to say that Imam Khuzaymah (ancestor of Ali) was the awakener of Prophet Jesus. Khuzaymah appointed Mary as the Hujjat to train Prophet Jesus, the future Natiq.
- According to Ash-shafiyya, Khuzaymah was the Mustaqarr Imam during Jesus time. It names Simon Peter, John the Apostle a several others as Entrusted Imams after Jesus. It NEVER equates Simon Peter and Khuzaymah.
- According to the findings of Kamal Salibi - a Lebanese Christain archeologist of the Bible, there have been two Jesus figures. One is the Quranic Prophet Issa who lived approx in 400 BC, (thats 1000 years before Prophet Muhammad). The other is Prophet Jesus who lived at around 0 BC. The Bible gosples have merged the two figures as one. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls speak of a Jesus-like figure. Prophet Issa was crucified on a tree, the Prophet Jesus was on the cross. Nasiruddin al-Tusi says that Simon Peter is the same as Maad, the Arab Patriarch and famous ancestor of Imam Ali.
- According to the book James the Just by Robert Eisanmen, Simon Peter of the Gospels is a rather sketchy figure and hardly historical info can be found on him. However, James the Just was a principle figure during the time of Prophet Jesus. Mary Magdalena was another principle figure. Shamun al-Safa probably belongs to the period of Prophet Issa (not Jesus).
- as it stands..here is my theory so far:
approx 1200 BC - Imam Haroon with Prophet Moses
approx 1000 BC - Imam Zadok in Prophet David's Court
approx 550 BC - Imam Adnaan in Yemen, Arabia
approx 400 BC - Prophet Issa and Imam Mustaqarr Shamun al-Safa (who is the same as Maad)
approx 0 BC - Prophet Jesus and Imam Mustaqarr Khuzaymah, and Imam Mustawda James and Hujjat Mary Magdalena (who at that time preached under the disguise of Simon Peter)
approx 600 BC - Imam Mustaqarr Abu Talib, Imam Mustawda Monk Bahira, and Prophet Muhammad
what info can you correct/confirm or add?
thanks.
- According to Henry Corbin, the Wasi-Imam with Jesus was Shamun al-Safa, under which, he says, Ismailies read the name Simon bar Kepha (Simon Peter of the Bible) along with other names, including Mary of Magdalena.
- according to Willian Muirs Life of Mahomet, Imam Adnaan ruled in Arabia at about 500 BC or so, and was invaded by the Babylonians. He was taken captive but his son Imam Maad escaped to safety.
- the name order in the Old Dua is as follows: Haroon (Aaron), Shamunsaffa (Simon the Pure), Adnan, Maad,...Khuzaymah..etc.
How historical should we take these names to be?
- According to the same book, Cyclical Times, Henry Corbin says that each Prophet had an awakener Imam that trained him. He goes on to say that Imam Khuzaymah (ancestor of Ali) was the awakener of Prophet Jesus. Khuzaymah appointed Mary as the Hujjat to train Prophet Jesus, the future Natiq.
- According to Ash-shafiyya, Khuzaymah was the Mustaqarr Imam during Jesus time. It names Simon Peter, John the Apostle a several others as Entrusted Imams after Jesus. It NEVER equates Simon Peter and Khuzaymah.
- According to the findings of Kamal Salibi - a Lebanese Christain archeologist of the Bible, there have been two Jesus figures. One is the Quranic Prophet Issa who lived approx in 400 BC, (thats 1000 years before Prophet Muhammad). The other is Prophet Jesus who lived at around 0 BC. The Bible gosples have merged the two figures as one. Also, the Dead Sea Scrolls speak of a Jesus-like figure. Prophet Issa was crucified on a tree, the Prophet Jesus was on the cross. Nasiruddin al-Tusi says that Simon Peter is the same as Maad, the Arab Patriarch and famous ancestor of Imam Ali.
- According to the book James the Just by Robert Eisanmen, Simon Peter of the Gospels is a rather sketchy figure and hardly historical info can be found on him. However, James the Just was a principle figure during the time of Prophet Jesus. Mary Magdalena was another principle figure. Shamun al-Safa probably belongs to the period of Prophet Issa (not Jesus).
- as it stands..here is my theory so far:
approx 1200 BC - Imam Haroon with Prophet Moses
approx 1000 BC - Imam Zadok in Prophet David's Court
approx 550 BC - Imam Adnaan in Yemen, Arabia
approx 400 BC - Prophet Issa and Imam Mustaqarr Shamun al-Safa (who is the same as Maad)
approx 0 BC - Prophet Jesus and Imam Mustaqarr Khuzaymah, and Imam Mustawda James and Hujjat Mary Magdalena (who at that time preached under the disguise of Simon Peter)
approx 600 BC - Imam Mustaqarr Abu Talib, Imam Mustawda Monk Bahira, and Prophet Muhammad
what info can you correct/confirm or add?
thanks.
Isn't Salibi the same who said all of the cities mentionned in the Bible are in Yemen and not in Palestine?
I don't think his theories stands firm in front of the overwhelming documents found at Nag Hamadi caves and which we know now has been written by people living in the Time of Jesus around 0 BC.
Also the number of generation from H. Ali to Khuzaima point to him having existed 600 years before Hijrah, not 1,000 year before Hijrah.
I also do not read in the Quran that there were 2 holy Jesus... I am saying Holy because we know there were 2 Jesus in 0 BC, one was Bar-Abbas (son of Abbas) and the other Bar-Joseph (son of Joseph). One was what I call "holy men / prophet" and the other a warrior.
No doubt Shamun al Safa is Simon Ber Kepha alias Simon Peter. In my opinion it will be VERY difficult to prove this untrue.
As I said, there are other people diggging these subjects and at least one is light years ahed of me in this reshearch, though not having an email address she maybe be behind in technology...
and new discoveries are not impossible since Allah creates where he wishes, what he wishes and when he wishes and therefore we may discover tomorrow something which we did not discover yesterday because it simply was not there to be discovered. [Why do I have the impression of having heard this somewhere
I don't think his theories stands firm in front of the overwhelming documents found at Nag Hamadi caves and which we know now has been written by people living in the Time of Jesus around 0 BC.
Also the number of generation from H. Ali to Khuzaima point to him having existed 600 years before Hijrah, not 1,000 year before Hijrah.
I also do not read in the Quran that there were 2 holy Jesus... I am saying Holy because we know there were 2 Jesus in 0 BC, one was Bar-Abbas (son of Abbas) and the other Bar-Joseph (son of Joseph). One was what I call "holy men / prophet" and the other a warrior.
No doubt Shamun al Safa is Simon Ber Kepha alias Simon Peter. In my opinion it will be VERY difficult to prove this untrue.
As I said, there are other people diggging these subjects and at least one is light years ahed of me in this reshearch, though not having an email address she maybe be behind in technology...
and new discoveries are not impossible since Allah creates where he wishes, what he wishes and when he wishes and therefore we may discover tomorrow something which we did not discover yesterday because it simply was not there to be discovered. [Why do I have the impression of having heard this somewhere
YAM Nagib,
I guess we are all on the same boat on this one. There is certainly a lack of information.
"Also the number of generation from H. Ali to Khuzaima point to him having existed 600 years before Hijrah, not 1,000 year before Hijrah. "
- yes, Khuzaymah existed 600 years before Hijra, that is at 0 BC.
- I am saying that Imam Maad probably existed 1000 years before Hijra.
"Isn't Salibi the same who said all of the cities mentionned in the Bible are in Yemen and not in Palestine?
"I don't think his theories stands firm in front of the overwhelming documents found at Nag Hamadi caves and which we know now has been written by people living in the Time of Jesus around 0 BC. "
- according to Kamal Salibi, the Jews were living in Arabia up until the Babylonian captivity. Then they resettled in Palestine and got established there. Dead Sea Scrolls community was Palestinian, no doubt there.
I am tryin to figure out the sequence of the old dua. Pir Sadardin places Simon Peter followed by Adnaan Maad and the Arab ancestors of Ali. Doesnt this mean Peter existed before both Adnan and Maad?
ah yes...new discoveries...always an exciting time...
I guess we are all on the same boat on this one. There is certainly a lack of information.
"Also the number of generation from H. Ali to Khuzaima point to him having existed 600 years before Hijrah, not 1,000 year before Hijrah. "
- yes, Khuzaymah existed 600 years before Hijra, that is at 0 BC.
- I am saying that Imam Maad probably existed 1000 years before Hijra.
"Isn't Salibi the same who said all of the cities mentionned in the Bible are in Yemen and not in Palestine?
"I don't think his theories stands firm in front of the overwhelming documents found at Nag Hamadi caves and which we know now has been written by people living in the Time of Jesus around 0 BC. "
- according to Kamal Salibi, the Jews were living in Arabia up until the Babylonian captivity. Then they resettled in Palestine and got established there. Dead Sea Scrolls community was Palestinian, no doubt there.
I am tryin to figure out the sequence of the old dua. Pir Sadardin places Simon Peter followed by Adnaan Maad and the Arab ancestors of Ali. Doesnt this mean Peter existed before both Adnan and Maad?
ah yes...new discoveries...always an exciting time...
Historical Data on Jesus' Successor
I am not an expert in this area nor have I done a great deal of research with respect to this. However, reading through all the postings gives me a sense that there are gross descrepancies between different sources of information. My hunch about why these occur is that there seems to be gross overstatement of time frames involved. Furthermore, data for this period was compiled in the Kaljug and the mental capacities were not as developed as they would be now. Therefore the need to adhere to versions provided by authoritative and trusted sources.
Perhaps there are historical documents written by Ismailis for this period and which have not been unearthed perhaps due to language issues or due to people not knowing what to look for. The fact that Tusi has alluded to this kind of information in his work hints that there may be other historical documents which are more specific for this period and which need to be researched. The key is to have the understanding about the eternity of Imamat otherwise it is really futile, you are not looking for the right information. For this reason we need to treat non-Ismaili sources with caution.
Perhaps there are historical documents written by Ismailis for this period and which have not been unearthed perhaps due to language issues or due to people not knowing what to look for. The fact that Tusi has alluded to this kind of information in his work hints that there may be other historical documents which are more specific for this period and which need to be researched. The key is to have the understanding about the eternity of Imamat otherwise it is really futile, you are not looking for the right information. For this reason we need to treat non-Ismaili sources with caution.