black clothes ???

noorani_786 · Post by **noorani_786** » Wed May 12, 2004 9:54 am

Shams,

I thought batuni is the gujurati translation for spiritual. If not, then what is the english transalation of batuni and the gujurati translation of spiritual?

Nizar

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Wed May 12, 2004 3:43 pm

Zaheri=Exoteric

Batuni=Esoteric

Roohani=Spiritual

noorani_786 · Post by **noorani_786** » Fri May 14, 2004 10:38 pm

Thanks Shams!

alinizar313 · Post by **alinizar313** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:51 pm

WE should understand that our faith is Batini. Inspite of that it must be remembered that what is apparent should reflect what is inside otherwise it will represent "Munafiqat" (Hypocracy). If it is not true then there is no need of Kiryas in our faith as that are all Zaheri or allogerical which takes you to the inner meaning of that particular event. Black symbolizes Ignorance. In my opinion the antonyms (opposite)of Ignorance is white and it means peace or 'Shanti'. It says in Quran "WA ADKHIL NAA DARUS-SALAM" means admit us in the house of peace. Therefore it is preferable to wear white or light colour clothes in JK so that it will remind us to enter in the house of peace. (Peace itself is our Lord as said in Quran "Allah homa ya mowlana enta salam" means Oh Lord you are Peace.)
Now I would like to quote one incident regarding white clothes in JK. It was in 1974 when Amir Ali Fancy, president of Federal council ( now it is known as National council) visited JK of Amynabad colony Hyderabad Sind Pakistan And I myself was present there. He amazed to see the discipline of Jamat as almost every member of jamat was in white clothes with cap on their head including ladies member in white clothes with white dupaata on their head. He conveyed the same to Hazar Imam. Hazar Imam sent a Taliqa to that Jamat saying that I am deeply impressed with the simplicity and discipline of Amynabad Jamat. Tell them that I am very pleased to your Jamat and other Jamat should follow the steps of Amynabad Jamat in simplicity and discipline.
You know how do they go for Aab-e- Shifa. They do not stand up all together like our Jamat but by rows Or you can say like first come first serve.

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:54 pm

Here is proof that Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah did not like the color black:

Mowlana Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah had made the following holy Farman to the ladies at Karachi, in 1920:

"Why have you come here in front (of me) wearing black clothes? It is not good (for you) to come to jamatkhana wearing black clothes. You must have read my Farmans I had made in Zanzibar about it. I am not happy at allto see you here in such (black) and expensive dresses.'

Here is proof the Prophet of Allah did not like the color black

There is also a Hadith of the Holy Prophet saying that the emimies of him and the Ahl-Bait will be wearing black clothes:

"The sign of our enemies will be that they will wear black clothes."

Here is proof that Sha Karim does not like the color black:

Once Mowlana Hazar Imam, Shah Karim, was visiting the Darkhana at Dar es Salaam. As he was climbing the stairs he noticed that the Mukhi, Najmudin Kassam Dewji, who was just behind the Imam, had put on black socks. Mowlana Hazar Imam cautioned him: " Mukhi you are wearing black socks here?" The Mukhi immediately removed the socks and followed his Mowla bear foot.

Mowlana Hazar Imam had sent the following holy Farman to the jamats of Pakistan:

"The aforementioned matters are universal and binding principles of Islam and must be followed by all Muslims, for indeed these principles were established by Prophet himself."

Ornaments and colourful clothing, in a simple and decent manner are allowed in Islam. But the Holy Prophet has forbidden Muslims to wear the clothes dyed with a bark known as Kusm. Kusm is boiled in water in an iron pot until the water turns deep black. Then the clothes are put in this water and kept boiling till the required colour appears on the clothes.

In India a bark known as gali or gardi is used for this purpose. In olden days there was no other proper dye, except gali, to dye- garments black. In our Ginan, the mureeds are forbidden to go to jamatkhana wearing such clothes, dyed with gali:
"O dear! Cast off clothes (dyed) with gali;
Do not go to the place of worship dressed in such clothes.
The angels avoid such people,
Therefore, my brother, discard clothes of gali."

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:28 pm

BLACK IS COLOR OF MOURNING
OF ENEMIES SO WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO WEAR BLACK??

REALLY UPSETTING TO SEE INGORANT ISMAILIES WHO WEAR
BLACK (COUNCIL MEMBERS AS WELL) IF THE BEGUM CANT WEAR
WHO ARE WE TO EVEN TRY TO WEAR BLACK

WHY DOES THE IMAM NEED TO BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT
TO REMIND US NOT TO WEAR BLACK. IT IS REALLY
SHAMEFUL. HOPE I AM NOT OFFENDING ANYONE IT IS JUST
MY RATIONALE

YA ALI MADAT

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:32 pm

Just because the Imam is present that does not mean that it is shameful in my opion because if you see the Imam and you decide to change your life style becuase of seeing Him then I dont think that there is anything wrong with them. Another thing I dont think that it is shameful to wear black, outside in public although personally i dont wear black at all. I do not think that it is a matter of ignorance I believe that it is a matter that the Imam's rahmet has not been bestowed upon those people so that they understand why it is wrong to wear black. Who are we to judge? If people wish to wear black clothes then let them but one day with the grace of Allah they will realize that wearing black, especailly in Jamat Khane is absoluty totally wrong. I said it before in my previous reply what more proof do you need the Prophet of Allah did not like this color, nor did our previous Imam, Mowlana Sultan Mohammad Shah nor does our present Imam Mowlana Sha Karim approve of this color, so why would you want to hurt your Imam? Make scence? Just my opinions and views.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:39 pm

SO WHAT WAS I TRYING TO GET AT
OF COURSE IT IS SHAMEFUL IF THE IMAM IS PRESENT
(PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUALLY)
BUDDY I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF THERE WAS A DEEDAR
AND SOMEONE WORE BLACK TO THE IMAM PRESENTENING
A MEHMANI AND MHI WONT BLESS HIM. ITS HAPPEND BEFORE
YA, IN PUBLIC I GUESS THAT IS ALRITE BUT IN JAMATKHANA
IT IS ABSOLUTELY WRONG. IF THE IMAM SAYS IT THEN THERES
NO "WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE" TO IT THEN. IF THE IMAM SAYS
SOMETHING, WE DO IT IF YOU LOVE HIM YOU WOULDN'T WEAR
BLACK IN JAMATKHANA FOR INSTANCE. HOPE THIS RATIONALE
ISN'T HURTING ANYBODY

I APPLOGIZE IF IT DID

YA ALY MADAT

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:52 pm

The way I see it that if you wear black clothes that doesnt not mean that you dont love your Imam. And this is absoltuly judging people by saying that they are ignorant or by saying that they do not love the Imam. Who are we to say that they do not love the Imam. Everyone commits sins in one way or another but that does not mean that you dont love the Imam. If you want to truly show the whole world that you dont love the Imam then break the bayat, meaning leave the Ismaili Faith.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:50 pm

Ya Aly Madat,

I understand that point of view but if u REALLY REALLY love the imam
I feel you would comply with his farmans. After all, giving baiyat
means you will do your best to do what the Imam says to do. So
if he says, if Prophet says, If MSMS says, then in my opinion
you shouldn't go to his house (jamatkhana) and present yourself
in black clothes.

Sure outside it's ok then but atleast not in khane. It does show
ignorance because you are ruining the electricity flowing within
the jamat. Atleast, I have condemned black in khane.

Mowla Aly Madat,

---------------

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:20 pm

It is not just the color black, all dark colors ruin the flow of electricity. Look at the other Muslims who go for Hajj. Why do they wear white? Beucase white is considered to be a sing of purity. So in my opion it would be best if we could keep the colors of our clothes to light colors, and totally discard the color black and cut down on wearing dark colored clothes.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:35 pm

of course white is the best colour to wear when attending
jamatkhana. I remember a farman where MHI was extremely
happy with the simplicity of the jamat. If I post the farman,
Admin will delete it. May MHI bless all with the iman and courage
to find the haqiqati (truth) ameen

Ya Aly Madat

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:31 pm

Black is colur of mourning thats why we avoid it wearing in Jk and other places I dont think so.
Yes black is colour of mouning but not always for example if I am wearing black pant that not means I am mourning or sad or if a girl is wearing black velvet frock that not means she is mourning.
The only reason we should NOT wear black clothes in Jamat Khana is that Hazir Imam has not allowed us to wear black clothes in Jamat Khana.

sammeghji · Post by **sammeghji** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:30 am

[quote]Black is colur of mourning thats why we avoid it wearing in Jk and other places I dont think so.
Yes black is colour of mouning but not always for example if I am wearing black pant that not means I am mourning or sad or if a girl is wearing black velvet frock that not means she is mourning.
The only reason we should NOT wear black clothes in Jamat Khana is that Hazir Imam has not allowed us to wear black clothes in Jamat Khana.[/quote]

YA ALI MADAD

I am agree with you because it is true that, if we are ismailies and have faith on Imam-e-zaman we have to obey all the faramins of MHI. That's why we should not wear black clothes in Jamat Khana.

Samina

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:16 pm

absolutely

keep up the good work

Ya Aly Madat,

akberm · Post by **akberm** » Wed Aug 25, 2004 10:15 am

When my Imam says that You shouldn't wear Black in JK and He does not like the color. This very reason is Enough for me not to wear Black in JK. My intellect fails on everything to reason. The bottom line is that He does not lke it and perhaps we shouldn't question HIM why. Even in Quran there are verses where ALLAH has asked mankind to do something but He has provided no reasons. IF we can explore reasons with the advent of our intellect Great! , but if we don't find reasons, we  shouldn't question and rationalize that okay our soul has to be clean and wearing Black is okay. The bottom line is that our Imam dislikes it.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:47 am

Well, can anyone tell me what the esoteric meaning of not wearing Black clothes in JK is? with farman references please.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:03 pm

shamsu wrote:Well, can anyone tell me what the esoteric meaning of not wearing Black clothes in JK is? with farman references please.

The following is an excerpt from Abu Ali missionary's article in this forum.

Ornaments and colourful clothing, in a simple and decent manner,are allowed in Islam. But the Holy Prophet has forbidden Muslims to wear the clothes dyed with a bark known as Kusm (“…'’)in Arabic. Kusm is boiled in water in an iron pot until the water turns deep black Then the clothes are put in this water and kept boiling till the required colour appears on the clothes.

In India a bark known as gali or gardi (“….”) is used for this purpose. In olden days there was no other proper dye, except gali, to dye garments black. In our Ginan the mureeds are forbidden to go to jamatkhana wearing such clothes, dyed with gali:
"0 dear! Cast off clothes (dyed) with gali;
Do not go to the place of worship dressed in such clothes. The angels avoid such people,
Therefore, my brother discard clothes of gali."

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Fri Aug 27, 2004 10:15 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shamsu wrote:In India a bark known as gali or gardi (“….”) is used for this purpose. In olden days there was no other proper dye, except gali, to dye garments black. In our Ginan the mureeds are forbidden to go to jamatkhana wearing such clothes, dyed with gali: "0 dear! Cast off clothes (dyed) with gali; Do not go to the place of worship dressed in such clothes. The angels avoid such people, Therefore, my brother discard clothes of gali."
 Not to forget that Ghali has a very strong odor that most people can not stand. Also this reminds me of a Hadith quoted in Bukhari that the Prophet said that people should not eat garlic and onions and come to the mosque. So I think we can not discount the extrem odour of ghali as one reason for this verse....

curious1 · Post by **curious1** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:31 am

First couple of quotes to bring my question under appropriate context. I have read the topic in detail but I believe my question still stands :

Posted: 31 Mar 2003 12:24 pm: On a day in 1945, Mowlana Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah had visited the Aga Hall (known as Wadi) at Bombay to bestow didaar. As he came out of his car a captain of the Ladies' Volunteer Corps gave a salute of honour but the Imam ignored it. He then summoned the major of the Corps and asked her why the captain, who saluted, was wearing a black stripe around her pachhedi (the head cloth, a part of the uniform) instead of the usual Corps' official stripe? She replied that her dhani (husband, master) had died a few days ago; she was mourning. The Holy Imam said:"Tell her that dhani's Dhani (Imam) is alive always."

Another quote :

Posted: 11 Nov 2004 05:36 am: excerpt from the Memoirs (Page 244) as: 'I am deeply touched to hear the terrible news of the death of King-Emperor. I have decided to stop all activities in connection with my Golden Jubilee celebrations, except the purely religious rites. We are in deep mourning. I myself will wear black clothes, and my people will wear their national mourning dress.

The question: We wear white when we go to JK in ziyarat majlis, in ziyarat we mourn the death and pray for the soul who left this world. Above, Imam is mourning by wearing black. Above example also shows that Imam does not want us to wear black regardless of the mourning because dhani's dhani is alive always. There seems to be a conflict or confusion. If we are mourning the death of a relative by visiting jamat khana then why we are not allowed to wear black

Second, if we are not supposed to wear black in JK even for mourning, then are we supposed to wear black at home or anywhere else for mourning

Third, how can we rationally explain the above conflict

Hope my questions are clear enough. And please note that I am not questioning why we cannot wear black in JK, I am only questioning why we cannot wear black in JK when we mourn (given the fact that Imam himself have shown us the example by wearing black to mourn).

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:23 am

curious1 wrote: Third, how can we rationally explain the above conflict

Hope my questions are clear enough. And please note that I am not questioning why we cannot wear black in JK, I am only questioning why we cannot wear black in JK when we mourn (given the fact that Imam himself have shown us the example by wearing black to mourn).

YAM,

I was anticipating this question and that is precisely the reason I posted the quote of IMSM. This is a classic example of "Do what He tells you to do and not to do what He does". This has been discussed under other forums as well. Imam is pure and is not bound by any law while we murids need a direction from the Imam. I hope that resolves the conflict. If further questions please ask.

curious1 · Post by **curious1** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:35 am

This is a classic example of "Do what He tells you to do and not to do what He does"

Thanks for the reply, are you stating above based on your understanding or have we been asked to "do what he tells you to do and not DO WHAT HE DOES" (caps mine).

Also, if you can shed light on my question about what to wear when you mourn outside of JK. (I am especially interested in knowing what Imam would like us to wear since the color black and white has significant meanings in our religion.

curious1 · Post by **curious1** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:45 am

Also I recall (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) Hazir Imam wearing white at the funeral of Zia-ul Haq in Pakistan (I was very young, my recollection may not be correct but I think he was'nt wearing black).

Thanks.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:41 pm

curious1 wrote:Thanks for the reply, are you stating above based on your understanding or have we been asked to "do what he tells you to do and not DO WHAT HE DOES" (caps mine).

Also, if you can shed light on my question about what to wear when you mourn outside of JK. (I am especially interested in knowing what Imam would like us to wear since the color black and white has significant meanings in our religion.

I know it sounds old fashioned, but my statement is based on what I have been told by very reliable sources. I am not sure if a farman exists on this. I have accepted this statement based on a number of observations and reflections. The following is an example of Hazarat Aly taking the oath of Abu Bakr and observed the Sharia for the sack of unity of the Muslim Umma. However he did not permit his murids i.e Salman and the other Persians to do the same. I am reproducing a post done by Kasamali in another forum.

Yes, Hadarat Ali used to pray. Similarly, at times, Imams do observe Shariat. But such acts can be understood from the folowing event taken from the book, 'Recognition of Imam', by: W. Ivanow, page: 44 and 45. Please note that the book was originally written in Persian language by a Persian Dai/author long ago before Pirs visited India.

" Salman (the Persian) by no means followed the prescrption of the Shariat, but intentionally and in the presence of evry body was doing unlawful things. This is why all the adversaries blamed him."
" But Hadarat Ali observed the commandments of the Shariat and after the death of the Prophet took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, although He did not allow Salman to do the same. When Umar, having grasped the collar of Ali, was dragging him to swear allegiance, some one of the adversaries came forth and, turning to Salman, said," How comes it that the person aout whom thou tellest all these (stories) and to whom thou ascribest such extra ordinary qualities, is now dragged in such humility to take an oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr?" Salman in reply said," If he liked, he could make this that, and that this," ponting at the same time to the earth and the sky. But the Hadarat Ali, having looked upon angrily said," One must not tell every thing one knows." But when Umar grasped the collar of Salman and dragged him with all the Persians to take the oath, Hadarat Ali came, freed him from the hands of Umar, and did not permit this.''

On the issue of mourning, my opinion is that we should not mourn at all and get on with our lives. There are Faramans that point to the deceased being at higher and happier levels of existence, so why mourn at all! In the case of the King-Emperor I think ISMS ordered the Jamat to mourn to maintain good relationship with the Royal family.

curious1 · Post by **curious1** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:11 pm

Actually I am not going as far as following the tariqat or shariat, you are blanketing a simple question into something more complicated but I got your point anyway. However, I am only looking for the significance of color white and black as far as proper attire is concerned (while praying in JK and other activities).

Your statement on :

On the issue of mourning, my opinion is that we should not mourn at all and get on with our lives. There are Faramans that point to the deceased being at higher and happier levels of existence, so why mourn at all! In the case of the King-Emperor I think ISMS ordered the Jamat to mourn to maintain good relationship with the Royal family.

Above makes sense. And correct me if I'm wrong but given the above understanding one can wear whatever he/she wants outside of JK. But then I come back in circle to my first question: why do we wear white when we go to ziyarat? We could very well wear anything simple and it would not matter per Imam , right? Again, I am not inquiring anything on esoterical level, only on physical level as what one sees and observes.

Thanks for your replies by the way, your comments and my questionings combined together are clarifying the matters for myself (and for others hopefully).

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:21 pm

If Imam is present 24x7 everywhere you go then I guess

you can't wear Black. As far as I have seen the black clothes issue

regards only to JK but since Imam is present everywhere maybe

Black is too be condemned everywhere. I am talking about wearing black

not because of mourning purposes but just wearing the color Black.

Just my opinion,

curious1 · Post by **curious1** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:27 pm

Not only that, but others may see a fundamental problem with "do what I say, don't do what I do" theory. Hopefully, we can elaborate on this further under different discussion topic.

Aside from that, the black color is turning out to be a condemned color in Ismailism, for which I have no problems. I just wish to understand it in contrast to other colors on its own physical implications.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:46 pm

curious1 wrote: Above makes sense. And correct me if I'm wrong but given the above understanding one can wear whatever he/she wants outside of JK. But then I come back in circle to my first question: why do we wear white when we go to ziyarat? We could very well wear anything simple and it would not matter per Imam , right? Again, I am not inquiring anything on esoterical level, only on physical level as what one sees and observes.

On the issue of "do what I tell and not what I do", I think it can be taken up as a separate issue. It would be interesting to hear other views.

I am not sure that we have to wear white when we go to Ziyarat. I know it is desirable otherwise any colour does not really matter. On the issue of black colour, I am reproducing here an excerpt of an article of Missionary Abu Aly on this issue. I hope it explains.

In India a bark known as gali or gardi (“….”) is used for this purpose. In olden days there was no other proper dye, except gali, to dye garments black. In our Ginan the mureeds are forbidden to go to jamatkhana wearing such clothes, dyed with gali:
"0 dear! Cast off clothes (dyed) with gali;
Do not go to the place of worship dressed in such clothes. The angels avoid such people,
Therefore, my brother discard clothes of gali."

Jamatkhana is the House of the Imam, about which Allah has mentioned in the Holy Qur'an:
"That Lamp is lit in houses which Allah has permitted to be exalted and His Name be mentioned therein, declare Glory to Him in the morning and the evening." (24:36)

The Lamp means the Noor of Imamate in jamatkhana. There the angels and spirits visit constantly to greet the faithful. Anyone entering in the jamatkhana's prayer hall is greeted by these spiritual beings but whosoever comes in black attire is avoided. In the pleasant gathering of tranquillity and spiritual happiness the person in black is considered like a stinking body in the Paradise. Therefore, the above verse of the Ginan has mentioned that the angels keep aloof from the people in black clothes.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:49 am

curious1 wrote:Not only that, but others may see a fundamental problem with "do what I say, don't do what I do" theory. Hopefully, we can elaborate on this further under different discussion topic.

Aside from that, the black color is turning out to be a condemned color in Ismailism, for which I have no problems. I just wish to understand it in contrast to other colors on its own physical implications.

No fundamental problem at all..i have taken baiyat to serve the imam with my tan, man and dhan..he says no black..that means no black...no questions..no arguements...no nothing...

Just from another perspective...scientifically ( and there are others more qualified on this forum than i am)...black is the colour of emptiness...black is devoid of any light..white on the other hand is filled with all the colors of the spectrum..
black also signifies a vaccum..white doesn't..
for those amongst us who accept the auric and aura theory...wearing black in jamat khana causes the auric circuit to break since it absorbs energy doesn't pass it on...(it makes sense to me..might not make sense to anyone else)..

Bottom line is..you want to wear black..go for it...however the imam has said no black...but it's up to you.

ShamsB

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:41 am

kmaherali wrote:I am reproducing here an excerpt of an article of Missionary Abu Aly on this issue. I hope it explains.
In our Ginan the mureeds are forbidden to go to jamatkhana wearing such clothes, dyed with gali: "0 dear! Cast off clothes (dyed) with gali;
Do not go to the place of worship dressed in such clothes. The angels avoid such people, Therefore, my brother discard clothes of gali."

Gali has an extremely strong bad smell. That may have been the reason of this verse. It reminds me of a Hadith in Bukhari that says "do not go to pray in Masjid after eating onions and garlic".

Nagib
=====================

www.ismaili.net

black clothes ???

Roohani and Esoteric

Black Clothes in JK

white clothes

Esoteric

Re: Esoteric

Re: Esoteric