Farman on Homosexuality?

[ForeverIsmaili]

Ya Ali Madad and Peace onto everyone

I have a question about a Farman Imaam Aga Khan IV decreed. I read that he declared a farmad on homosexuality about 10 or so years ago. It was pretty positive in that He is attributed to say homosexuality is Halaal if it's in a monogamous relationship.

Does anyone recall reading about this? I can't even remember the website or anything.

[YaAliYaMowla]

Im sorry but whereever you read that is talking nonsense. While Hazir Imam has never explicitly mentioned homosexuality (there really isnt a need to..) in a farman, we know clearly from our history that it is haram. The story of Prophet Lut should give some insight.. It was the same Allah then, as it is today...

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.

[Admin]

I have been through all of the available Farmans since 1957 and there is no such Farmans to my knowledge. The Imam has on the contrary made clear his views on social habits. there is an extensive discussion on this topic which you may find from the search button of the Forum section

Admin

[Sumi25]

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.

Yes, Hazir Imam never mentioned homosexuality in his farmans. So why do you automatically assume it's bad. Get over your own beliefs about it. You are obviously inserting your own preconceived notions about homosexuality. You say Hazir Imam is implying that it is wrong but you are looking at this situation through a close-minded veil.

Hazir Imam specifically mentions social ills in his farmans such as drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. Not once has he said anything against homosexuality. If it were such a great sin, wouldn't you think he would've advised against it by now?

Try looking at it with an open perspective without making lavish comments that hold no merit.

[YaAliYaMowla]

Hazir Imam has never given a farman with explicit mention of murder or rape either.. does that mean those things are ok? And before you start screaming "false analogy", understand the concept..

You saying that I am "inserting" my notions on the topic is no different from me saying that you are doing the same.. maybe you are gay.. for your own sake on the day of judgement, lets hope not.

Research the story of Prophet Lut, who was also one of OUR prophets. Most of the World is against homosexuality yet, because you seem to be from the West, you believe that the West has the right answer on these things.. You grew up brainwashed with their values and mentality, and anyone who does not agree is "close-minded". Think logically for a second, why is the vast majority of the world against homosexuality, and been that way for centuries upon centuries, are their reasons valid? Not doing this is what I would term "close-minded". Soon enough you people will be advocating pedophiles as well.. they're still people right?

EDIT: I have removed some insulting comments that I made and apologize for those comments. Upon reflection I realized that I let the previous response get to me more than it should have..

[ShamsB]

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.

Yes, Hazir Imam never mentioned homosexuality in his farmans. So why do you automatically assume it's bad. Get over your own beliefs about it. You are obviously inserting your own preconceived notions about homosexuality. You say Hazir Imam is implying that it is wrong but you are looking at this situation through a close-minded veil.

Hazir Imam specifically mentions social ills in his farmans such as drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. Not once has he said anything against homosexuality. If it were such a great sin, wouldn't you think he would've advised against it by now?

Try looking at it with an open perspective without making lavish comments that hold no merit.

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams

[Sumi25]

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams

Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.

[ShamsB]

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams

Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.

See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.

[Sumi25]

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams

Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.

See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.

Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ShamsB]

Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.

See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.

Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....

[Sumi25]

we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....

Wow now you're likening gays to crack babies.. That is such a prejudiced ignorant statement. Being gay is not a disease. Like I said in a previous post, that would be like saying being black is a disease.

Your previous posts at least had some merit to them. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[ShamsB]

we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....

Wow now you're likening gays to crack babies.. That is such a prejudiced ignorant statement. Being gay is not a disease. Like I said in a previous post, that would be like saying being black is a disease.

Your previous posts at least had some merit to them. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

we're talking about predisposition..not about crack babies..
how do crack babies have control over what their mothers do?

[kmaherali]

Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Just a quick question. If homesexuality is a natural inherent tendency, why did not the Prophets who brought us Divine laws regulate the behaviour for us. We have elaborate laws regarding marriages. Why not include gay marriages as well? After all homosexuality if it is natural, it would have existed always and our Prophets who were the embodiment of Mercy would have instituted a code of conduct for the society to accept this and the societies would have accepted whatever the Prophets told them....

[finni]

As far as I know, there is no such firman on the subject but our Imam would never make a direct reference in a firman on such subject as the time is not right for it. Just imagine, how much controversy it would create; and the reaction from the not so pluralistic minded people.

Here is what Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah had to say in his memoirs: "I firmly believe that the higher [spiritual] experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being. Thus from the most worldly point of view and with no comprehension of the higher life of the spirit, the lower, more terrestrial spirit makes us aware that all the treasures of this life, all that fame, wealth and health can bring are nothing beside the happiness which is created and sustained by the love of one human being for another but as the joys of human love surpass all that riches and power may bring a man, so does that greater spiritual love and enlightenment, the fruit of that sublime experience of the direct vision of reality which is God's gift and grace, surpass all that the finest, truest human love can offer.

Our Mowla is is very loving and is surrounded by people from various walks of life and ideal.

[kmaherali]

Here is what Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah had to say in his memoirs: "I firmly believe that the higher [spiritual] experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being.

I think the issue is not whether someone can love another human being of the same sex, two males can love and care for each other as brothers, and two females can love and care for each other as sisters. It is the extent and form of the expression of the love that is in question....

[finni]

The extent of love is between the two individuals.....it should not be dicated by someone outside of their relationship...there is an increasing general consensus o­n this subject..while there are still few in the society that do not understand how bilogy or genetics play a major role in human relationship, science is shedding light o­n this subject thus, o­nce what was a taboo subject to even discuss is open for a dialogue without any societal wrath...

[GMR]

And Prophet Lut! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you? Lo! ye come with lust unto men instead of women. Nay, but ye are wanton fold: (Holy Quran 7:80-81.

Male homosexaul activities are condemned as unnatural. 26:165-6
Male homosexuals commit abominations and act senselessly. 27:54-55.
Male homosexuals acts are condemned as unnatural. 29:28-29.

Freedom is tending to become licence. That is not acceptable. The abuse of freedom is the misuse of freedom. An therefore, I think we have to be very fcareful that we understand the ethics of our faith, abide by the ethics of our faith, and explain to the others that we have our own ethics. We do not ask them to share all our ethics, nor should they ask us to share all theirs, particularly when we find the principles of life are clearly different amongst various proples, various govenrments, etc..... Talika Mubarak p.12 of Dec. 13, 2008 - Aiglemont).

[kmaherali]

The extent of love is between the two individuals.....it should not be dicated by someone outside of their relationship....

I think as MSMS says in his memoir: "I firmly believe that the higher [spiritual] experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being"; worldly relationships are temporal and means towards an end. They are not to be construed as an end in themselves, and hence excessive attachment and lust is meant to be overcome even in heterosexual relationships. This is reflected in the following verses of the Ginan: Jire Vanjaaraa below.

ejee taare khaavaa malyo kuttu(m)b pareevaar
aagal koi kenu(n) nahee thaayshe, jeere vannajaaraa..........5

You have had the family relationships (for material security and joy).
But there ahead no one will be of any one else (you will be alone,
so don't make material attachments).


ejee e taare khottee chhe gharaddaanee naar
je tune vollaaveene paachhee valle, jeere vannajaaraa........6

Your worldly housewife is false (and temporary).
She will return after seeing you off (after the funeral rites).

[heartbreakkid]

<STRONG>very well said kmeherali, <BR><BR>i think its veryyy hard for homos to understand the simple fact that if at all allah wanted to create homos then he wud have created 2 adams and 1 eve<BR><BR>but god all wise made man and woman and when they MATE we were born, if&nbsp;at all&nbsp;god&nbsp;was kool with homos even homos wud have beared child but that special gift or zimedaari&nbsp;is given to woman o&shy;nly<BR><BR>god never wanted homos bcoz if he did then he wudnt have punished h.lut[as]'s ummah, u know how brutal the punishment was ???? god turned the earth upside down, what a dreadful death !!!<BR><BR>there is difference between a man and an animal and that difference is "AKL"&nbsp; but i guess homos dont wanna use their head but rather r interested in&nbsp; GIVINGHEAD[:D]</STRONG>

[qifar]

<STRONG>very well said kmeherali, <BR><BR>i think its veryyy hard for homos to understand the simple fact that if at all allah wanted to create homos then he wud have created 2 adams and 1 eve<BR><BR>but god all wise made man and woman and when they MATE we were born, if&nbsp;at all&nbsp;god&nbsp;was kool with homos even homos wud have beared child but that special gift or zimedaari&nbsp;is given to woman o&shy;nly<BR><BR>god never wanted homos bcoz if he did then he wudnt have punished h.lut[as]'s ummah, u know how brutal the punishment was ???? god turned the earth upside down, what a dreadful death !!!<BR><BR>there is difference between a man and an animal and that difference is "AKL"&nbsp; but i guess homos dont wanna use their head but rather r interested in&nbsp; GIVINGHEAD[:D]</STRONG>

Kid,
Its ironic that you mention akl and using one's head after invoking the most ignorant of arguments against homosexuals. Homosexual behaviour is natural. It occurs cross-culturally at approximately the same ratio of about 2-5% (the differences are likely due to reporting biases driven by local tolerance levels) and even across species. There is a strong genetic and perinatal component in the development of such tenancies. The 'gay brain' differs significantly across at least 32 visible structures including the corpus callosum (the major fiber band connecting the two hemispheres) and the medial hypothalamic nuclei (controlling endocrine systems, feeding and reproductive behaviours amongst other things).
Let people live their own lives - judge not lest ye be judged. What goes on in one's bedroom is the business of those individuals only and they ALONE are accountable to God for it.
And kid, if you are so sure about the perfection of God's design and that homosexuality is so terribly wrong; how to you account for the existence male G-spot?
-qifar

[kjiwani786]

Qifar, there is a simple logic your brain failed to pick up. Perhaps it is a result of the differences between my brain and your 'gay brain' and that is that sex before marriage is WRONG, gays can't get married making what they're doing wrong unless they're married. however, marriage is between a man and a woman. In some aspects I can agree that there is nothing wrong with being gay, I still watch TV's The Friends even though David Schwimer is in it, however, doing gay acts is wrong, it is sodomy and it is bad.

[enzuru]

Sadly our users have been unable to give any valid points against homosexual relations. The simply claim it is wrong, and are unable to prove how. It sounds very much like a Christian who says Jesus is simply God, or a Sunni who says Ismaili are simply not Muslim! Maybe there is something between their brain and our 'Ismaili brain' that is failing? What kind of horrible language is that for a murid to speak?

The "God would have made two Adams and Eve" is ridiculous, and shows that a large portion of our jamaat does not even understand who Adam was, and for some reason believe in the Sunni version of the story rather than the Ismaili version. It also is a logical flaw even in Sunnism: God had the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve marry each other (incest), since supposedly no on else existed on the Earth. Obviously that is what God wanted in that one situation, so let's apply it to all situations! Do you see this logical flaw? If you don't even know the Ismaili version of Adam and Eve, how can I expect you to know something as socially important as the treatment of homosexuals in society? I am not directing that question to all people in this topic, others have taken a more academic approach to disproving homosexual relations, which I respect.

However, I ask anyone here to prove to me homosexuality is incorrect in our tariqah, and that such marriages are immoral. Taking verses of the Qur'an without the tafsir of the Imam is highly dangerous, and the executions of homosexuals, apostates, and raped women in Islamic countries should show you that. Show me tafsir from an Imam and we can settle this issue, till then, your interpretations of the Qur'an are void, as are mine.

Some people, unable to find a specific religious belief against homosexual marriage, try to argue that homosexuality is immoral because of its effect in society. Yet, ironically, it is heterosexual couples who are having abortions, are single mothers, and having children they cannot afford. Such issues are absent from homosexual relationships and marriages. Using this argument, one would rather come to the conclusion that homosexual relationships are preferable! But obviously that's not what the point is.

But we can overview established scientific and historical facts. Our jamaat does not contradict with science on any matter, and in fact, Islam in general has rarely contradicted with science, unlike the other faiths of the world. This is a great hujjat (proof) of our faith, yet we like to make exceptions here and there for our preconceived notions. Let's overview facts: remember, these are indisputable:

1) Homosexuality is recognized by the medical establishment not to be a choice. A homosexual feels the same way about the same gender as you do about the opposite gender: you are asking them to give up the same sexual feelings you accept as completely natural. We in Islam do not find sex to be immoral (Paul of the Bible's writings have influenced the dim view of sex in the Western world), nor do we find marriage to be undesirable. Secondly, this is the same medical establishment you trust for your health when you're sick or your loved one is in peril, so it's rather ridiculous to have double standards as most non-Ismaili Muslims tend to. Our jamaat is above childish logic and emotion. Some people have inferred that the medical establishment was pressured into their position, which is ridiculous, the religious institutions have been unable to pressure science into anything in our contemporary times, and it is still much more influential than any LGBT (Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender) community. The success of Proposition 8 to ban homosexual marriage in California should prove that. On another note, crack babies are not addicted to crack, they have rather physical and mental disabilities.

2) In Greek, Japanese, Middle-Eastern, and other cultures, homosexuality had a different connotation and meaning than it does in the present day. For example, many of us remember the Twelver Ayatollah Sistani's recent infamous fatwa that the homosexual should be killed in, "...the worst way possible." This refers to an entirely different matter: it refers to something more akin to pedophilia, when an older man (who in most cases is attracted to women) would take a younger effeminate boy as a lover (generally who had not reached puberty yet hence would be more effeminate, recall that in shariah sex with any individual under puberty is haraam). Anyone who is familiar with Middle-Eastern literature can tell you that many love stories and poems were dedicated to young boys, rather than women, and that the Ottoman court was filled with young boys. This is the kind of homosexuality that is referred to in the Qur'an, in this context, and can create a myriad of problems for the children who are physically and emotionally abused. This kind of homosexuality is not extinct, it still is popular in north Pakistan and Afghanistan, for example, I've read that the Taliban would bribe people with young boys.

3) Someone brought up the issue of gay marriage not existing in previous shariah. That issue is actually explained by my second point: the fact that being homosexual is a permanent position in life in which one would marry another person of the same gender did not simply exist in most areas of the world. If one was living in a rural village in NWFP, and one was not attracted to women, how would you ever know what this meant? How would you know what sexual attraction felt like, or what you were supposed to feel for a woman? My father told me he had to ask his uncle how to have sex after he was married, and he had already been living in the United States for sometime. There are some exceptions, such as pre-Christian Rome, but in general the fact that homosexuality is a permanent disposition was not known, and if it did exist, it would only have served to further the interests of cultural homosexuals rather than those who solely were attracted to the same gender. On another note, for many of you who are Khojas and believe in literal reincarnation, why didn't the Last Prophet simply be clear about reincarnation rather than let the belief of two lives and one death exist? Why do the first mentions of reincarnation (that I know of) have to wait till the Fatimid Empire? Obviously reincarnation doesn't need an enlightened mind to understand, many of the Hindus who rejected the Da'i teachings believed in it already.

In most male homosexual relations, there is the man who takes the dominant position, and the man who takes the dominated position. Most homosexual man identify either as a top/dominant or bottom/dominated, which shows that even in a homosexual relationship, there is a strong strain of heterosexual tendency. Lesbian sexual relations often do not even have penetration (which makes it different from any other form of sex), and is actually akin to heterosexual foreplay.

How liberal is the jamaat on such issues? When it comes to issues of transsexuals, religions ranging from Islam to Hinduism have understood it to be an actual issue, and there are specific rulings for such individuals to take their position as a male or female within their society, and now in modern times, undergo hormonal replacement therapy and genital surgery. Ayatollah Khomeini in fact was behind the fatwa to allow non-hermaphrodites to undergo sex change surgeries. The prestigious Sunni institution, al-Azhar, has given fatwas on the matter as well.

As far as same sex relations, I believe only the Imam can decide that. One thing is for sure, and that it never has been condemned in the context it is today. One of the great proofs of Islam, in particular Ismailism, is that as more and more knowledge is discovered, our faith has stood the test of time against all science and discovery. Homosexual relations, and how they will be managed by the jamaat, is no different. But remember, Allahu alim, Allah knows best.

[ShamsB]

Sadly our users have been unable to give any valid points against homosexual relations. The simply claim it is wrong, and are unable to prove how. It sounds very much like a Christian who says Jesus is simply God, or a Sunni who says Ismaili are simply not Muslim! Maybe there is something between their brain and our 'Ismaili brain' that is failing? What kind of horrible language is that for a murid to speak?

The "God would have made two Adams and Eve" is ridiculous, and shows that a large portion of our jamaat does not even understand who Adam was, and for some reason believe in the Sunni version of the story rather than the Ismaili version. It also is a logical flaw even in Sunnism: God had the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve marry each other (incest), since supposedly no on else existed on the Earth. Obviously that is what God wanted in that one situation, so let's apply it to all situations! Do you see this logical flaw? If you don't even know the Ismaili version of Adam and Eve, how can I expect you to know something as socially important as the treatment of homosexuals in society? I am not directing that question to all people in this topic, others have taken a more academic approach to disproving homosexual relations, which I respect.

However, I ask anyone here to prove to me homosexuality is incorrect in our tariqah, and that such marriages are immoral. Taking verses of the Qur'an without the tafsir of the Imam is highly dangerous, and the executions of homosexuals, apostates, and raped women in Islamic countries should show you that. Show me tafsir from an Imam and we can settle this issue, till then, your interpretations of the Qur'an are void, as are mine.

Some people, unable to find a specific religious belief against homosexual marriage, try to argue that homosexuality is immoral because of its effect in society. Yet, ironically, it is heterosexual couples who are having abortions, are single mothers, and having children they cannot afford. Such issues are absent from homosexual relationships and marriages. Using this argument, one would rather come to the conclusion that homosexual relationships are preferable! But obviously that's not what the point is.

But we can overview established scientific and historical facts. Our jamaat does not contradict with science on any matter, and in fact, Islam in general has rarely contradicted with science, unlike the other faiths of the world. This is a great hujjat (proof) of our faith, yet we like to make exceptions here and there for our preconceived notions. Let's overview facts: remember, these are indisputable:

1) Homosexuality is recognized by the medical establishment not to be a choice. A homosexual feels the same way about the same gender as you do about the opposite gender: you are asking them to give up the same sexual feelings you accept as completely natural. We in Islam do not find sex to be immoral (Paul of the Bible's writings have influenced the dim view of sex in the Western world), nor do we find marriage to be undesirable. Secondly, this is the same medical establishment you trust for your health when you're sick or your loved one is in peril, so it's rather ridiculous to have double standards as most non-Ismaili Muslims tend to. Our jamaat is above childish logic and emotion. Some people have inferred that the medical establishment was pressured into their position, which is ridiculous, the religious institutions have been unable to pressure science into anything in our contemporary times, and it is still much more influential than any LGBT (Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-Transgender) community. The success of Proposition 8 to ban homosexual marriage in California should prove that. On another note, crack babies are not addicted to crack, they have rather physical and mental disabilities.

2) In Greek, Japanese, Middle-Eastern, and other cultures, homosexuality had a different connotation and meaning than it does in the present day. For example, many of us remember the Twelver Ayatollah Sistani's recent infamous fatwa that the homosexual should be killed in, "...the worst way possible." This refers to an entirely different matter: it refers to something more akin to pedophilia, when an older man (who in most cases is attracted to women) would take a younger effeminate boy as a lover (generally who had not reached puberty yet hence would be more effeminate, recall that in shariah sex with any individual under puberty is haraam). Anyone who is familiar with Middle-Eastern literature can tell you that many love stories and poems were dedicated to young boys, rather than women, and that the Ottoman court was filled with young boys. This is the kind of homosexuality that is referred to in the Qur'an, in this context, and can create a myriad of problems for the children who are physically and emotionally abused. This kind of homosexuality is not extinct, it still is popular in north Pakistan and Afghanistan, for example, I've read that the Taliban would bribe people with young boys.

3) Someone brought up the issue of gay marriage not existing in previous shariah. That issue is actually explained by my second point: the fact that being homosexual is a permanent position in life in which one would marry another person of the same gender did not simply exist in most areas of the world. If one was living in a rural village in NWFP, and one was not attracted to women, how would you ever know what this meant? How would you know what sexual attraction felt like, or what you were supposed to feel for a woman? My father told me he had to ask his uncle how to have sex after he was married, and he had already been living in the United States for sometime. There are some exceptions, such as pre-Christian Rome, but in general the fact that homosexuality is a permanent disposition was not known, and if it did exist, it would only have served to further the interests of cultural homosexuals rather than those who solely were attracted to the same gender. On another note, for many of you who are Khojas and believe in literal reincarnation, why didn't the Last Prophet simply be clear about reincarnation rather than let the belief of two lives and one death exist? Why do the first mentions of reincarnation (that I know of) have to wait till the Fatimid Empire? Obviously reincarnation doesn't need an enlightened mind to understand, many of the Hindus who rejected the Da'i teachings believed in it already.

In most male homosexual relations, there is the man who takes the dominant position, and the man who takes the dominated position. Most homosexual man identify either as a top/dominant or bottom/dominated, which shows that even in a homosexual relationship, there is a strong strain of heterosexual tendency. Lesbian sexual relations often do not even have penetration (which makes it different from any other form of sex), and is actually akin to heterosexual foreplay.

How liberal is the jamaat on such issues? When it comes to issues of transsexuals, religions ranging from Islam to Hinduism have understood it to be an actual issue, and there are specific rulings for such individuals to take their position as a male or female within their society, and now in modern times, undergo hormonal replacement therapy and genital surgery. Ayatollah Khomeini in fact was behind the fatwa to allow non-hermaphrodites to undergo sex change surgeries. The prestigious Sunni institution, al-Azhar, has given fatwas on the matter as well.

As far as same sex relations, I believe only the Imam can decide that. One thing is for sure, and that it never has been condemned in the context it is today. One of the great proofs of Islam, in particular Ismailism, is that as more and more knowledge is discovered, our faith has stood the test of time against all science and discovery. Homosexual relations, and how they will be managed by the jamaat, is no different. But remember, Allahu alim, Allah knows best.

To your last point about gay marraige - it is not the jamat that dictates that for us - it is the IMAM in the Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah - maybe you missed that point.

Shams

[enzuru]

To your last point about gay marraige - it is not the jamat that dictates that for us - it is the IMAM in the Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah - maybe you missed that point.

Shams

I am sorry, I feel that was very dishonest quote picking on your part. I emphasize Islam, `aql, and the Imam throughout my post: one line I misstate and you jump on me. I begin that paragraph clearly with, "As far as same sex relations, I believe only the Imam can decide that." I emphasized the Imam and not my own personal feelings, preconceived notions, and disgust with homosexuality throughout the entire post. Maybe you missed my points? I'd appreciate an apology, unless you sincerely misunderstood my position.

I meant, and it came out incorrectly, how it will be decided by the Imam and therefore managed by the jamaat. If you're going to debate, please don't try to misconstrue my position.

[ShamsB]

To your last point about gay marraige - it is not the jamat that dictates that for us - it is the IMAM in the Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah - maybe you missed that point.

Shams

I am sorry, I feel that was very dishonest quote picking on your part. I emphasize Islam, `aql, and the Imam throughout my post: one line I misstate and you jump on me. I begin that paragraph clearly with, "As far as same sex relations, I believe only the Imam can decide that." I emphasized the Imam and not my own personal feelings, preconceived notions, and disgust with homosexuality throughout the entire post. Maybe you missed my points? I'd appreciate an apology, unless you sincerely misunderstood my position.

I meant, and it came out incorrectly, how it will be decided by the Imam and therefore managed by the jamaat. If you're going to debate, please don't try to misconstrue my position.

Until and unless the Imam says anything it is a moot point..and after the Imam says something..it also becomes a moot point..till the Imam overrules the Quran - we follow the Quran.

Shams

[enzuru]

To your last point about gay marraige - it is not the jamat that dictates that for us - it is the IMAM in the Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah - maybe you missed that point.

Shams

I am sorry, I feel that was very dishonest quote picking on your part. I emphasize Islam, `aql, and the Imam throughout my post: one line I misstate and you jump on me. I begin that paragraph clearly with, "As far as same sex relations, I believe only the Imam can decide that." I emphasized the Imam and not my own personal feelings, preconceived notions, and disgust with homosexuality throughout the entire post. Maybe you missed my points? I'd appreciate an apology, unless you sincerely misunderstood my position.

I meant, and it came out incorrectly, how it will be decided by the Imam and therefore managed by the jamaat. If you're going to debate, please don't try to misconstrue my position.

Until and unless the Imam says anything it is a moot point..and after the Imam says something..it also becomes a moot point..till the Imam overrules the Quran - we follow the Quran.

Shams

The very same Qur'an Imam SMS told us not to read so we wouldn't be confused? That's a cute idea. I love reading the Qur'an, but basing things off of it in our tariqah is something else.

Many may not have realized this, but this is one of the very issues that has split our jamaat in recent times, that our Imam has recently announced he will be working to fix. It's a very subtle issue that one may not catch. Why is Shams using the methods he is using to deduce truth, and why am I using the methods I am?

I am an Afghani Ismailiyya, I follow Ismailism as expounded by Nasir-i Khusraw. Shams, can you tell me how this tradition was formed? Was it formed by the Imam giving a farman for each and every precept, or simply teaching Nasir-i Khusraw through divine revelation? Do you know the origins of the logic Nasir-i Khusraw used to expound his philosophy? The origins weren't even Islamic, they were Greek logic, which he used in his capacity to demonstrate the logical nature of God, the Universe, the Heavens, and the Earth. As an Afghani Ismailiyya, I become afraid that we will lose our tradition and heritage of using our God-given logic to understand where the Imam has remained silent, even if that logic isn't infallible.

I'm not sure what tradition Shams is part of, but there is an obvious difference in how we're approaching the issue, and I can say that at least my difference is because of my religious background.

Because of this, it seems that there has been a split in the jamaat over the use of `aql in matters where the Imam has remained silent: those from the Nasiriyya tradition do not hesitate to use it because our entire faith is based on philosophy, not on the Sufi spirituality of the Satpanth. Just as many of the Satpanth tradition seek to purify their souls through the recitation of Ginans, I seek to purify my soul through meditating and understanding the teachings of Nasir-i Khusraw. It may sound odd to those of the Satpanth tradition that we hold philosophy in such a high manner, but for us, just as Satpanth spirituality is to feel God, Nasiriyya philosophy is to understand God. As our jamaat grows, I feel we will begin to understand how very important both are.

I'm not saying one of our traditions is wrong, but rather I am saying both are correct: the Nasiriyya belief that we can use logic to expound truths is as valid as it was before the Satpanth tradition ever existed.

What is mentioned in the Qur'an is shariah in regards to marriage, which is not what our jamaat technically follows, rather, I'd say we follow akhlaq, which is unrelated. An example of the difference between shariah and akhlaq is that it is valid in (Twelver) shariah for one to have sexual relations with a baby to whom one is married, but not penetrative sex. To be more defined, one may ejaculate between the legs of the child as long as one does not penetrate it. This is against akhlaq and logic, and even though it was permissible in shariah, even during those times do you expect an Imam to a murid to have done it? No, it's horrible akhlaq.

While the Imam has addressed certain portions of shariah as being invalid or impossible to achieve prerequisites for, such as polygamy, are we to say that everything in the Qur'an must be clearly denied in order to consider it invalid? That is incorrect in the light of Ismaili history, as far as I understand. For example, I have not read a specific refutation against the whipping of fornicators according to the Qur'an. Should we still assume this is in practice?

[heartbreakkid]

you said :

HOMOSEXUALITY is NATURAL


ur ryte thts the reason y this so called HOMOS[by birth or other natural causes] died an UN-NATURAL death during the time of H.LUT[AS]

HOMOS r prohibited in christanity too !!!

read genesis chap 19 , romans 1:24-32


LIKING A PERSON AND WANTING A PERSON IS DIFFERENT MY FREN
[for ex: actors]


and what is this................ nothing is said by imam n blah blah

who said nothing is said by imam

read memoirs of agkhan where is SARKAR NUR MAWLANA SHAH SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH[AS] clearly talked about marriage


"A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned. "


what did our holy imam e zaman meant by FAMILY here..........ask anyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy one n they'll say kids

if u have sex with ur male counterpart are ur seeds fruitful ????

who bears a child in her womb for 9 months ???????


there is a reason for everything brother but simply saying that imam never said that shows how MUCH U LOVE IMAM

MAY MAWLA BLESS U BRO

and insha allah ALL UR DEFECTED PARTS WILL WORK ONE DAY

[qifar]

Kid,

Again you fail to use your head (and apparently are incapable of using and spelling words correctly). Homo is a Greek prefix that refers to sameness (eg. homogeneity) or the genus of our species.
The Prophets were people and are prone to err, just like you and I. Furthermore, scripture (being Judeo-Christain, Islamic or Eastern) is not meant to be read literally. First, they are bound in space and time. Second, they are wrought with errors (of content and logical consistency). And Third, they are myths, universal truths and a tool to understanding as truth as opposed to truth in itself.

As to family production; think back along the long history of your life and tell me that you have never used a contraceptive during sex, or wasting sperm by masturbating (i presume you are male from you ignorance). If you argue that homosexuality is wrong because it does not produce viable offspring, surely, you must argue contraceptives, oral sex, anal sex and vasectomies in addition to masturbation or wet dreaming are just as evil.

Why does this even concern you. If someone wishes to live their own life in a matter they are comfortable with who are you to complain about it, if they're not hurting anyone?
-qifar

[qifar]

there is a reason for everything brother but simply saying that imam never said that shows how MUCH U LOVE IMAM

MAY MAWLA BLESS U BRO

and insha allah ALL UR DEFECTED PARTS WILL WORK ONE DAY

i think you meant defective

was this directed at me?
if yes, fyi. i am not gay

-qifar[/quote]

[enzuru]

you said :

HOMOSEXUALITY is NATURAL

No, the medical establishment that makes your medicine and that you go to when you're sick said so. Not me. If you want to stop trusting them, then stop taking their medicine or stop getting their surgeries, they don't know what they're talking about according to you!

ur ryte thts the reason y this so called HOMOS[by birth or other natural causes] died an UN-NATURAL death during the time of H.LUT[AS]

I already explained in my post that that was not relating to natural predefined homosexuality, and if I call correctly, even the Arabic original seems to denote children rather than simple homosexuality. Make sure to read my post slowly and carefully.

HOMOS r prohibited in christanity too !!!

read genesis chap 19 , romans 1:24-32

As I stated before, the people of Lot were a different matter. Interestingly, newer studies of Genesis have actually doubted that this refers to homosexuality, and scholars are beginning to believe that it refers to a sexual cult that perhaps existed around this time. My study Bible briefly overviews this. On another note, the Anglican Church, the third largest church in the world, is making steps towards understanding the homosexual condition, though we have yet to see how this will turn out. Many homosexual accepting churches do exist now, however.

LIKING A PERSON AND WANTING A PERSON IS DIFFERENT MY FREN
[for ex: actors]


and what is this................ nothing is said by imam n blah blah

who said nothing is said by imam

read memoirs of agkhan where is SARKAR NUR MAWLANA SHAH SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH[AS] clearly talked about marriage


"A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned. "


what did our holy imam e zaman meant by FAMILY here..........ask anyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy one n they'll say kids

if u have sex with ur male counterpart are ur seeds fruitful ????

who bears a child in her womb for 9 months ???????

That's called bad logic. According to your logic, a woman who is infertile hence cannot bare children should not get married at all, because she cannot bear children, and that is the entire point of marriage! Astaghfullilah. I will make sure all the infertile women of our jamaat cannot wed each other!

Second, there have been huge strides in actually turning a male sperm into an egg, meaning homosexuals could very well produce within the next few decades.

Third, there is something called adoption. There are millions of children who need adoption, and I as an Afghani know this because after the Soviet invasion our country was torn to pieces. If only more of our jamaat adopted children our country could have been a much sweeter place. Many of the children who's lives were damaged by the Soviet invasion went on to join the Taliban. War and violence and hatred was all they had ever known, and their unhealthy childhoods created an awful nation in Afghanistan.

there is a reason for everything brother but simply saying that imam never said that shows how MUCH U LOVE IMAM

MAY MAWLA BLESS U BRO

and insha allah ALL UR DEFECTED PARTS WILL WORK ONE DAY

I am a nineteen year old sister, I am not a brother, and where did I state I was a homosexual? I am stating logic, I am stating my beliefs as have been taught to me as an Ismailiyya of the Nasir-i Khusraw tradition, as was taught by the Imams to the murids of Afghanistan and Central Asia. I apply logic, not blind Sunni-like fanaticism to my life, and I'd appreciate if the other murids of the Imam, even if they disagree with me or come to other conclusions, use logic, not fanaticism to support their conclusions, which should not be predetermined.