Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older

[kayjay]

<P>I have been asked this question "why we as ismailis dont consider hazrat hasan as the second imam,even though he ws older than imam hussain" can someone please give me an answer to this as.</P>

[kmaherali]

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his will stated:

"Ever since the time of my ancestor Ali, the first Imam, that is to say over a period of thirteen hundred years, it has always been the tradition of our family that each Imam chooses his successor at his absolute and unfettered discretion from amongst any of his descendants, whether they be sons or remote male issue and in these circumstances and in view of the fundamentally altered conditions in the world in very recent years due to the great changes which have taken place including the discoveries of atomic science, I am convinced that it is in the best interest of the Shia Muslim Ismailia Community that I should be succeeded by a young man who has been brought up and developed during recent years and in the midst of the new age and who brings a new outlook on life to his office as Imam. For these reasons, I appoint my grandson Karim, the son of my own son, Aly Salomone Khan to succeed to the title of Aga Khan and to the Imam and Pir of all Shia Ismailian followers."

The above clearly explains that the appointment to the office is not dependant upon the age or the status of the appointee in the family. MSMS appointed his grandson although both of his sons were alive.

[kayjay]

I thank you very kindly for your reply,but If you can please give your views to why the twelvers take hazrat Hasan as a imam,moreover was there evidene that mowla Ali chose hazrat Hussien over hazrat Hasan (as per our ismaili philosophy)

[kmaherali]

I thank you very kindly for your reply,but If you can please give your views to why the twelvers take hazrat Hasan as a imam,moreover was there evidene that mowla Ali chose hazrat Hussien over hazrat Hasan (as per our ismaili philosophy)

Primarily, the reason is because of the difference in the notion of Imamat. I have explained further in the following two threads.

Doctrines --> want to learn about Ismailiyya
Doctrines --> Pir and Prophet

After going through them, do not hesitate to ask if you have further questions.

[kayjay]

kmeharali,you have been extremly helpful,thank you!it will take me some time to extensivly study the detailed research that you have put down in the two mentioned links.will get back to you if i need some more information.thanks again.

[kayjay]

Yam kmeherali,I should start by complimenting you on your amazing knowledge and resarch on this forum.It took me a while to go through the threads mentioned by you,but there are a few things that i would really be interested to know,in context to your post-"the prophet appointed imam Hasan to carry on his work after him and hazrat Ali appointed Imam Hussain as the imam after him".
1)where would I find this particular farman,can you post the same on this forum?.
2)is there a hadieth that states that the prophet appointed Imam Hasan as the pir...to carry on his work after him?

[ShamsB]

Yam kmeherali,I should start by complimenting you on your amazing knowledge and resarch on this forum.It took me a while to go through the threads mentioned by you,but there are a few things that i would really be interested to know,in context to your post-"the prophet appointed imam Hasan to carry on his work after him and hazrat Ali appointed Imam Hussain as the imam after him".
1)where would I find this particular farman,can you post the same on this forum?.
2)is there a hadieth that states that the prophet appointed Imam Hasan as the pir...to carry on his work after him?

I would recommending reading the names of the 50 pirs that were part of our old dua.

That will be a good start.

Shams

[kmaherali]

1)where would I find this particular farman,can you post the same on this forum?.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

2)is there a hadieth that states that the prophet appointed Imam Hasan as the pir...to carry on his work after him?

The notion of Piratan is not for all Muslims and hence you will not find it in a hadith. According to Alwaez Abually's book 'A Brief History of Ismailism', the Prophet had said: "Hasan is from me and I am from him."

[kayjay]

would I be wrong if I said that we Ismailis have this concept and philosophy immidiatly after the prophet left this world..........and the sectism within the shia's started after the prophet passed away and not after the 7th imam or the 12th imam??

[kmaherali]

would I be wrong if I said that we Ismailis have this concept and philosophy immidiatly after the prophet left this world..........and the sectism within the shia's started after the prophet passed away and not after the 7th imam or the 12th imam??

I agree with you, it would not be wrong....

Ismailism has existed since the beginning, it did not start at the death of the Prophet. There were Imams and Pirs before Prophet Muhammad, Hazarat Ali became the Imam at the death of his father Hazarat Abi Bakr and there is historical evidence that Hazarat Bibi Khatija was the Pir before Prophet Muhammad.

Hazarat Ali's Imamat was a new phase in our history but not the beginning.For the rest of the Shias it was the beginning. This is the fundamental difference. It explains why the majority of the Shias ended up with the wrong Imamat. There was a form of the Jamat who new the Imamat of Hazarat ali and his father even prior to the event of Ghadir. What the event of Ghadir did was to make the institution of Imamat known to the wider society.

Not everyone who acepted the Imamat of Ali at Ghadir did it for religious reasons, some had political and economic reasons - that the Imam should be a worldly leader and hence accepted Hazarat Hasan who was the Khalif, as their Imam as opposed to Imam Husein. This fundamental difference was carried forward until it caused the break during the Imamat of Imam Jafer- as Saddiq.

There were many doctrines of Imamat at the inception of Shai Islam and as a result there were many sects. The doctrine of the designation by nass crystallized during the Imamat of Al- Baqir. This doctrine separated us from the rest of the Shias.

There are two aspects of our history; the Zaheri and the Batini. The former is the history that we project to the world. In this version Hazarat Ali was the first Imam. In the latter version which is for the Jamat, Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam but a continuation of the Imamat since the beginning.

[ShamsB]

would I be wrong if I said that we Ismailis have this concept and philosophy immidiatly after the prophet left this world..........and the sectism within the shia's started after the prophet passed away and not after the 7th imam or the 12th imam??

I agree with you, it would not be wrong....

Ismailism has existed since the beginning, it did not start at the death of the Prophet. There were Imams and Pirs before Prophet Muhammad, Hazarat Ali became the Imam at the death of his father Hazarat Abi Bakr and there is historical evidence that Hazarat Bibi Khatija was the Pir before Prophet Muhammad.

Hazarat Ali's Imamat was a new phase in our history but not the beginning.For the rest of the Shias it was the beginning. This is the fundamental difference. It explains why the majority of the Shias ended up with the wrong Imamat. There was a form of the Jamat who new the Imamat of Hazarat ali and his father even prior to the event of Ghadir. What the event of Ghadir did was to make the institution of Imamat known to the wider society.

Not everyone who acepted the Imamat of Ali at Ghadir did it for religious reasons, some had political and economic reasons - that the Imam should be a worldly leader and hence accepted Hazarat Hasan who was the Khalif, as their Imam as opposed to Imam Husein. This fundamental difference was carried forward until it caused the break during the Imamat of Imam Jafer- as Saddiq.

There were many doctrines of Imamat at the inception of Shai Islam and as a result there were many sects. The doctrine of the designation by nass crystallized during the Imamat of Al- Baqir. This doctrine separated us from the rest of the Shias.

There are two aspects of our history; the Zaheri and the Batini. The former is the history that we project to the world. In this version Hazarat Ali was the first Imam. In the latter version which is for the Jamat, Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam but a continuation of the Imamat since the beginning.

Well put Karim.

Shams

[kayjay]

Yam,you said there is historical evidence that hazrat Bibi Khatija was pir before prophet Muhammad can you please elaborate on that ie.what are the evidences.

does that mean we had a prophet and pir at the same point in time?

since we have had 1,24,000 prophets,has there ever been an instance when there have been two prophets in two different parts of the world at the same time?

we as Ismailis believe that this world would not exisit if we did not have an Imam,do we have the same belief about the presence of a pir ?if the answer is no,has there ever been such an instance in history?

[kmaherali]

Yam,you said there is historical evidence that hazrat Bibi Khatija was pir before prophet Muhammad can you please elaborate on that ie.what are the evidences.

There is an article which can be accessed at:
http://193.111.227.225/isw/articles_rh/ ... 0Kubra.pdf

does that mean we had a prophet and pir at the same point in time?

Yes, the office of Prophethood pertains to the role of guiding mankind whereas the office of Piratan pertains to the role of guiding the Jamat. At the time of the Prophet Hazarat Bibi Khadija would have been the Pir until year AD 619 when she died. Muhammad who had already become the Prophet would have been appointed Pir upon her death.

since we have had 1,24,000 prophets,has there ever been an instance when there have been two prophets in two different parts of the world at the same time??

124,000 is a symbolic way of saying that there have been many many prophets and that they have always appeared when the need has arisen. Imam sultan Muhammad Shah says in his memoir:

"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

we as Ismailis believe that this world would not exisit if we did not have an Imam,do we have the same belief about the presence of a pir ?if the answer is no,has there ever been such an instance in history?

There is always an Imam and a Pir. Sometimes the Imam performs the dual role as at present and sometimes he appoints a Pir from the Ahl al Bayt.

[kayjay]

Mashallah! I salute your resarch and knowledge.THANKYOU.

[ShamsB]

It may also be important to note that the word Pir is a farsi word - which came into the Ismaili vocabulary as a title on the advent of the persian period. The Arabic equivalent for Shah and Pir are Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustaqir.
Pir is also used a title - not necessarily equivalent to the status of an Imam Mustaqirr.

Shams

[kmaherali]

Mashallah! I salute your resarch and knowledge.THANKYOU.

You are welcome! BTW, the research on Hazarat Bibi Khadija was done by Alwaeza Rashida Hunzai of London.

[kmaherali]

Pir is also used a title - not necessarily equivalent to the status of an Imam Mustaqirr.

Shams

You meant Imam Mustawda?

[ShamsB]

Pir is also used a title - not necessarily equivalent to the status of an Imam Mustaqirr.

Shams

You meant Imam Mustawda?

There we go - thanks Karim.

S.

[ShamsB]

Mashallah! I salute your resarch and knowledge.THANKYOU.

You are welcome! BTW, the research on Hazarat Bibi Khadija was done by Alwaeza Rashida Hunzai of London.

Karim,

I think that the premise that bibi khatija was pir prior to prophet mohammed is faulty. Simple reason being that as far as I know (now, there might be more research into this that I am not aware of) is that she is not genealogically related to Prophet Mohammed or Hazrat Ali - all our pirs - even Pir Sarkar Bibi Maryam Khatun - are descended from Prophet Mohammed and from that line.

Shams

[kmaherali]

I think that the premise that bibi khatija was pir prior to prophet mohammed is faulty. Simple reason being that as far as I know (now, there might be more research into this that I am not aware of) is that she is not genealogically related to Prophet Mohammed or Hazrat Ali - all our pirs - even Pir Sarkar Bibi Maryam Khatun - are descended from Prophet Mohammed and from that line.

Shams

Shams,

Did you read the article in the link provided? Her exalted genealogy is given in it.

[pridesal]

<P>I would like to ask some thing.From the previous posts o&shy;ne gets an idea that Prophet Muhammad SAW was a Pir whose task was to reveal the Imamat and has somewhat smaller rank than Imams.But then why when we recite the sahib-e-zaman tasbeeh which means Lord Of The Time after the second dua we take the name of both Hazrat Muhammad and Mowla Ali</P>

[kmaherali]

There is an interesting article on Hazarat Hasan:

Hazrat Hasan: Ahead of His Time and Perhaps Would Be If He Were With Us Today
His Islam was such that “he neither desired evil and harm to anyone”

By Barnaby Rogerson
Special to Simerg

http://simerg.com/literary-readings/haz ... -us-today/

[kmaherali]

There were Imams and Pirs before Prophet Muhammad, Hazarat Ali became the Imam at the death of his father Hazarat Abi Bakr and there is historical evidence that Hazarat Bibi Khatija was the Pir before Prophet Muhammad.

There is a typo. It should be Hazarat Abu Talib and NOT Hazarat Abi Bakr. Khatija should be Khadija.

[ismailignosis]

The Pir before prophet Muhammad was his father Abdullah until his death. Then the office was occupied by Abu Talib himself before he appointed the prophet as the Pir.

BIbi Khadija was the Bab/Hujjat - there are 4 Babs in total and the Pir is one of them and Khadija was the other of them. She was not a Pir.

The list of Pirs in the Satpanth sources lists the name of Abdullah, then Prophet Muhammad, then Pir Imam Hasan, etc.

[kmaherali]

The list of Pirs in the Satpanth sources lists the name of Abdullah, then Prophet Muhammad, then Pir Imam Hasan, etc.

In this case I stand corrected. Nevertheless it still shows continuity of Piratan since even before Prophet Muhammad which was the thrust of my argument.

[agakhani]

The list of Pirs in the Satpanth sources lists the name of Abdullah,

Which Satpanth sources are you referring Mr. gnosis?

if you not mind then put it here so everybody can read it.