December 6, 2007
A Bundle of Joy Isn’t Enough?
By THOMAS VINCIGUERRA
WHEN Jena Slosberg of Bedford, N.H., gave birth in March, she endured a labor that lasted 17 hours. But her discomfort was ultimately worth it, quite apart from the arrival of her daughter, Marin. In the recovery room, her husband, Paul, presented her with a pair of diamond earrings.
“I was on cloud nine,” Ms. Slosberg said. “It was the perfect present to make a frazzled, sleep-deprived, first-time mommy feel absolutely glamorous.”
She added, “I wonder what 17 hours of labor will get me next time?”
In a more innocent age, new mothers generally considered their babies to be the greatest gift imaginable. Today, they are likely to want some sort of tangible bonus as well.
This bonus goes by various names. Some call it the “baby mama gift.” Others refer to it as the “baby bauble.” But it’s most popularly known as the “push present.”
That’s “push” as in, “I the mother, having been through the wringer and pushed out this blessed event, hereby claim my reward.” Or “push” as in, “I’ve delivered something special and now I’m pushing you, my husband/boyfriend, to follow suit.”
“It’s more and more an expectation of moms these days that they deserve something for bearing the burden for nine months, getting sick, ruining their body,” said Linda Murray, executive editor of BabyCenter.com. “The guilt really gets piled on.”
A recent survey of more than 30,000 respondents by BabyCenter.com found that 38 percent of new mothers received a gift from their mate in connection with their child. Among pregnant mothers, 55 percent wanted one. About 40 percent of both groups said the baby was ample reward.
Sandra Miller of Arlington, Mass., is not among the 40 percent.
“Women can and do expect a thoughtful token of appreciation,” she said. “It’s a way to honor a mother giving her emotions, body and hormones over to a baby for nine months, culminating in an experience which, when done naturally, redefines the meaning of pain. And when not done naturally, it’s still an act of sacrifice.”
Push presents seem to have taken off within the last decade, particularly in the last couple of years. In 2005 the Southeast-based jewelry chain Mayors marketed diamond earrings with the tag line, “She delivered your first born; now give her twins.” Fortunoff, the jewelry and gift chain with a Fifth Avenue flagship, established a push present registry six months ago.
But the push present — unlike the 15-year anniversary ring — is apparently not the invention of the jewelry industry looking for another opportunity to sell goods. No one is quite sure how the trend began; in practice the baubles are presented before or after the big day, or sometimes right in the delivery room.
“They’ve arisen from the time cavemen brought trinkets to their wives,” said Jim Brusilovsky of Chains-and-charms.com, a Philadelphia-based jewelry chain. “I haven’t seen it coming from the industry.”
Michael Toback, a jewelry supplier in Manhattan’s diamond district, traces the practice to a new posture of assertiveness by women. “You know, ‘Honey, you wanted this child as much as I did. So I want this,’” he said.
A more likely explanation is that men are now simply more aware of and sympathetic to the plight of their pregnant partners, given their increasing tendency to attend childbirth classes and help in the actual delivery. “I think husbands are more involved with the prenatal process,” said Dr. Philippe Girerd, an obstetrician in Richmond, Va. “Women go through back pain, morning sickness, stress and so on. We just sit around and take the credit. I think a lot of 21st century husbands are a little more in touch with that.”
Certainly Dr. Girerd is. When his wife, Chris Cavan, gave birth to their son and daughter, he gave her a ring and a watch.
“I could care less about the jewelry industry,” Dr. Girerd said. “For me, it was acknowledging everything my wife had been through.”
The popularity of push presents has generated a backlash among some couples, who decry the implicit materialism.
“This isn’t the time to give a $200 piece of jewelry,” said Rhonda Grote, president of ThinkThoughtful.com, an online gift consulting company in Bradenton, Fla. “I do not think that because a woman has had a baby she requires a Tiffany & Company item. She requires help, love and emotional support.”
Ms. Grote suggested that new fathers should instead consider performing domestic chores, hiring a cleaning service, or otherwise provide extra assistance for the new mother.
Ray Mears of Grand Haven, Mich., didn’t give his wife, Beth, gifts for any of their three children, the most recent of them in July. And that’s fine with both of them. “It’s a really bizarre and unnecessary thing for a woman to expect,” Ms. Mears said. “For one thing, lots of people are giving gifts to the mom, baby and entire family. Also, there’s a lot going on when a new baby is expected. It’s just not a nice time for a woman to demand that her partner get creative and think of ‘the perfect gift.’”
MICHELLE ALLEN of Los Angeles originally heard about push presents from a friend who had received one. When she became pregnant, she began dropping hints. “I knew what I wanted, which is very awful,” she admitted. “But my husband is a very romantic guy.”
True to his romantic nature, Eric Allen obliged his wife with a gemstone-studded ring for each of their two children — Lara, born in July 2004, and Dashiell, in October 2006.
“I wear those rings every day,” Ms. Allen said. “They symbolize my kids. There’s something about them that’s even more weighty than my wedding band.”
Although jewelry is the most common push present, virtually anything heartfelt will suffice. Will Murphy of Haverhill, Mass., gave his wife, Grace, a Louis Vuitton diaper bag to mark the August arrival of their son, Liam. David Samson of San Francisco gave his wife, Renée, a metal sculpture in May to celebrate the birth of their daughter, Elisheva. He even installed some new lighting to complement it.
When Tom and Dana Wiley of Dunlap, Ill., had their third child, a daughter named McKenna, in September, Mr. Wiley bought the family a hot tub.
“It was a cumulative gift,” Ms. Wiley said. “With three, we have become homebodies anyway so now we can enjoy it.”
In general, women enlighten their men about push presents, not the other way around. Chris Beggini, a 43-year-old mutual fund manager in Radnor, Pa., didn’t know about the practice until his wife, Jennifer, straightened him out. “We talked about how she had nine months of difficulty, and ‘Aren’t I the good soldier?’ blah blah blah,” he recalled.
So when the Begginis begat Abigail in 1999, Ellie in 2002, and Julia last year, Mr. Beggini responded with earrings, a bracelet and what he jokingly calls a “suffer ring.”
“You have to keep mama happy,” he said.
Marriages
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abidjaffer
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:15 pm
Re: Marriages
<BR><BR>A- Yes I approve of it.saadi wrote:Dear friends,<BR><BR>I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue: <BR>"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?" <BR><BR>It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if o­ne falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how o­ne converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite? <BR><BR>Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"<BR>A: Yes I approve of it <BR>B: It is okay o­nly if the girl converts to Ismailism <BR>C: It is okay o­nly if the kids follow Ismailism in future<BR>D: No it is absolutely unacceptable<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Saadi
good issue raised!
yes i agree with you. its a very common issue and such isues should be discussed so that <BR>one could be able to take right decision if he/she faces such problem.<BR>coming back to the issue.....<BR>there could be different anser to this issue. first historical and religiously: i think its right for an ismaili to marry with a member of sister communityt or even outside muslim community and it would be necessary for her to convrt to ismailism.<BR>secondly comes the personal aspect.and its differs from person to person. as for as i think an ismaili should not marry with someone unless it is necessary<BR>who is not ismaili. <BR>but here o­ne question comes to my mind can an ismaili girl marry with with a non ismaili guy?
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ranimohammadkarim
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:57 pm
- Location: Karachi
Issue or challenge
Yes, inter faith marriage inter communal marriage is an issue now a days. but i think this has been an issue from long time ago. due to fast communication we are to notice these issue more. as far as my thought works, i think that if u marry someone out of your community, it effects your relgio social life, it also involves questions related to the faith of children..... that which faith they should follow. some parents left this matter o­n their children to decide. this period becomes a turning point for the couple married without thinking about their relgio social life....if u r easy about your children, whatever faith they follow then u r free to marry anybody, either cristian, hidu or any other muslim. but if u want your coming generation to be ismaili, murids of Imam-e-Zaman, then you must marry o­nly an ismaili. + if you are sure that after marrying in another faith your generation will remain ismaili, then i think is okay. as i see some examples in the society around me that after getting married, spouse also becomes ismaili, then off course their children are ismaili, but in some cases, our ismaili left their beloved Imam, Mehboob-e-Haqiqi for a shia, sunni hindu or anybody else. so it depends how much u love your imam, your community, your faith. yes if you are ready to sacrify your faith for a person you fell in love with, then it may be okay for yuo. there is another example, i know a ismaili girl, who was too much fasionable, wore jeans shirts, working in a hospital, earning a handsome salery. she fell in love with traditional sunni, he first asked her to left job, then he asked her to wear a weil, then ismaili practices, then Imam. what did she get out of this guy, burqah, prison at home, no joy of being ismaili.... though i don't know much about her, but i beleive, whenever we celebrate our rites, festivals, deedar, darbar.... she must be weaping at home.... a lot of examples are here around me, i don't know, how many this type of ismailis girls are there in this world......
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
Re: My sitiuation -- thoughts welcomed
<BR><BR> No Offense...First of all...We marrry an ismaili so that we are bringin our future kids into our religion. We are increasing more people in our religion. And now that you have married a non-ismaili guy and u think its all good. Then what about your kids ? Destiny is in ya own hands...you make it happen..n its called Chance..you could have find other better ismaili guys buh u neva gave a chance to yourself. <BR><BR>khus wrote:I have been spiritual and religious all my life but I could never relate to the other kids in JK. I had a friend for four years and he was a non-ismaili. <BR><BR>He had an interest in the Imam and wrote book reports o­n him for school assignments. He was my best friend. We started dating and fell in love. I knew him very well. Before getting married I knew he wasn't ready to convert just yet but I knew he would when he was ready. It was something he said he always wanted to do.<BR><BR>We did discuss religion and children prior to marrying. He was perfectly content with our children being Ismaili. <BR><BR>A year into the marriage he was ready to go through the process and I am glad he has made this decision o­n his own. My parents are worried about the social ramifications of this since a select few know we have married. My parents like my husband. He didn't practice a faith prior to this but his grandparents are sadden because he didn't take up Christianity. but both of our parents are happy for us. <BR><BR>I don't feel I am wrong for marrying a non-ismaili. It has strengthen my faith and renewed his. If this is his destiny to serve Allah, then who am I to reject the will of Allah.
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
We give more significance to our society we live in. Religion is a part of society. True believer of allah is who sacrifice his or her life for God. If we strongly practice our faith then we are not misguided..and can never come up with such pathetic questions about why cant we marry a non-ismaili n what not.
First of all..you should understand what LOVE means..
There are two types of love..
Divine love (love of God)
Temporal love (the Love of the World)
A person who feels the deep need and regard for God, will indeed be graced with the Enlightenment of
His Deedar (Illumination), but if one just continues nearly to talk, his innumerable lives are just lost in the
cycles of births and deaths, without even having the glimpse of God. It is only through the deep
ceaseless yearnings of “Ishk-e-Haquiki” (Divine Light) that one is able to embrace God. Whatever is
there, is the manifestation of Love. There is no happiness, higher and more satisfying than the Divine
Love.
The Temporal Love has an element of selfishness, whilst Divine Love is selfless and has pure sentiments,
and until man’s inner vision has not awakened to this reality, there will continue to exist more or less
degree of selfish love in such blood-relation as those of parents-children, husband-wife, brother-sister
friends etc. Even the slightest element of selfishness makes love transformed into temporal love, and yet
inspite of being utilised for selfish motives, it still continues to give sweetness and ecstasy to life. Hence,
all processes, states or things that give us joy and happiness and to which we are attracted are due to
Love.
Now i know you must be thinking why i am talking about love...but in conclusion...
Love forms the wings of the soul. Love is the Essence of religion. Love is our true Over-self. Love is the Manifest Form of God, it is God’s living incarnation.
First of all..you should understand what LOVE means..
There are two types of love..
Divine love (love of God)
Temporal love (the Love of the World)
A person who feels the deep need and regard for God, will indeed be graced with the Enlightenment of
His Deedar (Illumination), but if one just continues nearly to talk, his innumerable lives are just lost in the
cycles of births and deaths, without even having the glimpse of God. It is only through the deep
ceaseless yearnings of “Ishk-e-Haquiki” (Divine Light) that one is able to embrace God. Whatever is
there, is the manifestation of Love. There is no happiness, higher and more satisfying than the Divine
Love.
The Temporal Love has an element of selfishness, whilst Divine Love is selfless and has pure sentiments,
and until man’s inner vision has not awakened to this reality, there will continue to exist more or less
degree of selfish love in such blood-relation as those of parents-children, husband-wife, brother-sister
friends etc. Even the slightest element of selfishness makes love transformed into temporal love, and yet
inspite of being utilised for selfish motives, it still continues to give sweetness and ecstasy to life. Hence,
all processes, states or things that give us joy and happiness and to which we are attracted are due to
Love.
Now i know you must be thinking why i am talking about love...but in conclusion...
Love forms the wings of the soul. Love is the Essence of religion. Love is our true Over-self. Love is the Manifest Form of God, it is God’s living incarnation.
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Important_Information
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:17 am
That is on individuals to make the decision that they love their Faith more or a person to whom they are getting married with.
If you love your worldly partner more than your Faith then it is your decision to marry the one who do not believe in your Faith.
And remember that the one who don’t even ready to believe in your Faith; can not love you enough and not even worth to get marries with.
Kasim.
If you love your worldly partner more than your Faith then it is your decision to marry the one who do not believe in your Faith.
And remember that the one who don’t even ready to believe in your Faith; can not love you enough and not even worth to get marries with.
Kasim.
The type of love you are mentioning is the higher love with only a very few are graced to experience. Once a person has tasted that love, he may not feel the need to get married at all, let alone marrying a non-Ismaili! MSMS describes this kind of love in his memoir:sherali786 wrote:A person who feels the deep need and regard for God, will indeed be graced with the Enlightenment of
His Deedar (Illumination), but if one just continues nearly to talk, his innumerable lives are just lost in the
cycles of births and deaths, without even having the glimpse of God. It is only through the deep
ceaseless yearnings of “Ishk-e-Haquiki” (Divine Light) that one is able to embrace God. Whatever is
there, is the manifestation of Love. There is no happiness, higher and more satisfying than the Divine
Love.
"It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. But when we realize the meaning of this saying, we are already preparing ourselves for the gift of the power of direct experience. Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soil. Hafiz indeed has said that men like Jesus Christ and Muslim mystics like Mansour and Bayezid and others have possessed that spiritual power of the greater love; that any of us, if the Holy Spirit (*) ever present grants us that enlightenment, can, being thus blessed, have the power which Christ had, but that to the overwhelming majority of men this greater love is not a practical possibility."
He then goes on to explain how the absence of this great love can be ovecome by the majority:
"We can, however, make up for its absence from our lives by worldly, human love for individual human beings; and this will give us a measure of enlightenment attainable without the intervention of the Holy spirit. Those who have had the good fortune to know and feel this worldly, human love should respond to it only with gratitude and regard it as a blessing and as, in its own way, a source of pride. I firmly believe that the higher experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being. Thus from the most worldly point of view and with no comprehension of the higher life of the spirit, the lower, more terrestrial spirit makes us aware that all the treasures of this life, all that fame, wealth and health can bring are nothing beside the happiness which is created and sustained by the love of one human being for another. This great grace we can see in ordinary life as we look about us, among our acquaintances and friends."
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
Love – divine or physical – springs from the heart.
Our people move on from generation to generation..and in between that if someone ends up marrying a non-ismaili guy or a gal...then there is a generation gap to it.
If you really know what love of god is then you don't think about yourself but god.
there are people i know who are happy with there marriage but in future its going down the train.
Its all upon you..buh as an ismaili..if your faith is strong ..then you can't create such thoughts about why we cant marry a non-ismaili guy and what not.
And love of god is not devoting your life and not marrying. And whatever I mentioned is about ibadat. And christians don't marry jus cause they devote their life to god..its not us.
And while you celebrate religious events who n for what are you going to take part in religious events?
Think about it. Would you be happy if people around you won't be happy with your marriage?
Imam never mentioned about intercast marriages...so why even we think about it ?
Islam is a part of the interpretation of Muslim societies of who they are. It is part of their way of being, which includes the totality of their institutions, practices and above all..the SELF-IMAGE and world- image embedded in their way of life.
Therefore, According to me marrying a non-ismaili is same as being non-religious.
Our people move on from generation to generation..and in between that if someone ends up marrying a non-ismaili guy or a gal...then there is a generation gap to it.
If you really know what love of god is then you don't think about yourself but god.
there are people i know who are happy with there marriage but in future its going down the train.
Its all upon you..buh as an ismaili..if your faith is strong ..then you can't create such thoughts about why we cant marry a non-ismaili guy and what not.
And love of god is not devoting your life and not marrying. And whatever I mentioned is about ibadat. And christians don't marry jus cause they devote their life to god..its not us.
And while you celebrate religious events who n for what are you going to take part in religious events?
Think about it. Would you be happy if people around you won't be happy with your marriage?
Imam never mentioned about intercast marriages...so why even we think about it ?
Islam is a part of the interpretation of Muslim societies of who they are. It is part of their way of being, which includes the totality of their institutions, practices and above all..the SELF-IMAGE and world- image embedded in their way of life.
Therefore, According to me marrying a non-ismaili is same as being non-religious.
Inter-marriage is not an ideal but a reality of our community today. MHI during his recent Mulakats to the US Jamats met with non-Ismaili spouses and blessed them as well. He asked them to join their families in the celebrations.sherali786 wrote: And while you celebrate religious events who n for what are you going to take part in religious events?
Think about it. Would you be happy if people around you won't be happy with your marriage?
Imam never mentioned about intercast marriages...so why even we think about it ?
Islam is a part of the interpretation of Muslim societies of who they are. It is part of their way of being, which includes the totality of their institutions, practices and above all..the SELF-IMAGE and world- image embedded in their way of life.
Therefore, According to me marrying a non-ismaili is same as being non-religious.
So long as the rasing of children is clarified at the outset there is no major issue with the inter-marriages, and perhaps they could provide a very tangible mechanism to build bridges with other faiths. MHI also encouraged the non-Ismaili spouses to join our institutions.
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
Yeah. He met people who serves hes community. My uncles wife who is a christian...Shes interested in our religion..And she was supportive to her husband.. And Mowlana Hazar Imam is sure going to accept them.
I am talking about people..who turn away from religion just for the marriage. Or who don't try to bring their kids into religion. There are tons of other non-ismaili who married our ismaili ppl..why didn MHI met them ? He met people who are interested in our community. Also, he told that lady to educate her kids. Now that doesn't mean he allowed to marry a non-ismaili person.
Don't try to find excuses. lol...seriously ! there is a logic to it..yet you don't get it.
If you marry a christian ? will u be able 2 change ya religion for her ? Then how can you expect her to change religion for you. Noone likes it..Yet they always give last preference to religion.
Faith can't be compromised. ^_^ and is not permitted.
I am talking about people..who turn away from religion just for the marriage. Or who don't try to bring their kids into religion. There are tons of other non-ismaili who married our ismaili ppl..why didn MHI met them ? He met people who are interested in our community. Also, he told that lady to educate her kids. Now that doesn't mean he allowed to marry a non-ismaili person.
Don't try to find excuses. lol...seriously ! there is a logic to it..yet you don't get it.
If you marry a christian ? will u be able 2 change ya religion for her ? Then how can you expect her to change religion for you. Noone likes it..Yet they always give last preference to religion.
Faith can't be compromised. ^_^ and is not permitted.
Christian author offers practical help to couples
Pastor conducts marriage seminars across continent
Graeme Morton
Calgary Herald
Saturday, May 17, 2008
CREDIT: Courtesy, Gary Chapman
Gary Chapman says his one-day seminar next Saturday in Calgary will help both couples in solid marriages and those who are struggling.
A leading Christian author on love and marriage says churches are well positioned in today's society to help couples strengthen their wedding commitment.
Gary Chapman, author of the bestseller The Five Love Languages, says churches can become a second, extended family for couples far away from support networks.
"Many churches are now offering practical help in the form of classes and workshops on family and marriage issues," he says.
"I think that's one reason why people are returning to churches. It may not be a spiritual attraction at first, but people are thinking, 'If I can get help raising this kid of mine, I'll go,' " says Chapman. "Then they often rediscover the spiritual side of life." Chapman will lead a one-day Toward a Growing Marriage seminar next Saturday, May 24, at Grace Baptist Church, 2670 Radcliffe Dr. S.E.
Chapman conducts about 30 of these sessions across North America each year and notes they're designed both for couples in solid marriages and those who are struggling.
"We want to give people practical ideas on how to stimulate growth in their own marriage and the ability to offer suggestions when they're trying to help other couples," he adds.
Chapman has also served for 36 years as a senior associate pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Winston-Salem, N.C. During his extensive ministry, Chapman says he has found struggling couples are much more likely to initially confide in a friend than a professional counsellor.
"They often think that their problems are unique because they look around and everyone else seems to be doing fine," he says.
"But the fact is that all couples have struggles, it's just a part of humanity." Chapman says the seminar touches on topics such as communications, conflict resolution, fostering emotional love, change without manipulation and sex.
"When people decide they want to change and improve their marriage, they often start at the wrong place," he says.
"They'll identify their spouse's problems and focusing on getting their spouse to change. I suggest a better approach is being honest with yourself about your own shortcomings and deciding where you can be a better contributor to the marriage." Chapman says today's marriages are under increasing time and career pressures, compounded by unreasonable expectations touted by the media and pop culture.
Chapman's Calgary visit is being sponsored by the Canadian Conference of Southern Baptists.
"Often couples wait too long to get help and they give up on their relationship," says Bob Shelton, the CCSB's church strengthening team leader.
"Events like this allow couples to open up the dialogue, to talk about areas of concern and potential growth in their marriage." Shelton says taking those steps can greatly increase the chances of a relationship making it through stormy times.
"I don't think we're intended to just survive in a relationship. I think God meant for us to thrive in our marriages," says Shelton.
Tickets for Chapman's seminar are available from Christian Publications, Blessings and Mountainview Bookstore.
[email protected]
© The Calgary Herald 2008
Pastor conducts marriage seminars across continent
Graeme Morton
Calgary Herald
Saturday, May 17, 2008
CREDIT: Courtesy, Gary Chapman
Gary Chapman says his one-day seminar next Saturday in Calgary will help both couples in solid marriages and those who are struggling.
A leading Christian author on love and marriage says churches are well positioned in today's society to help couples strengthen their wedding commitment.
Gary Chapman, author of the bestseller The Five Love Languages, says churches can become a second, extended family for couples far away from support networks.
"Many churches are now offering practical help in the form of classes and workshops on family and marriage issues," he says.
"I think that's one reason why people are returning to churches. It may not be a spiritual attraction at first, but people are thinking, 'If I can get help raising this kid of mine, I'll go,' " says Chapman. "Then they often rediscover the spiritual side of life." Chapman will lead a one-day Toward a Growing Marriage seminar next Saturday, May 24, at Grace Baptist Church, 2670 Radcliffe Dr. S.E.
Chapman conducts about 30 of these sessions across North America each year and notes they're designed both for couples in solid marriages and those who are struggling.
"We want to give people practical ideas on how to stimulate growth in their own marriage and the ability to offer suggestions when they're trying to help other couples," he adds.
Chapman has also served for 36 years as a senior associate pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Winston-Salem, N.C. During his extensive ministry, Chapman says he has found struggling couples are much more likely to initially confide in a friend than a professional counsellor.
"They often think that their problems are unique because they look around and everyone else seems to be doing fine," he says.
"But the fact is that all couples have struggles, it's just a part of humanity." Chapman says the seminar touches on topics such as communications, conflict resolution, fostering emotional love, change without manipulation and sex.
"When people decide they want to change and improve their marriage, they often start at the wrong place," he says.
"They'll identify their spouse's problems and focusing on getting their spouse to change. I suggest a better approach is being honest with yourself about your own shortcomings and deciding where you can be a better contributor to the marriage." Chapman says today's marriages are under increasing time and career pressures, compounded by unreasonable expectations touted by the media and pop culture.
Chapman's Calgary visit is being sponsored by the Canadian Conference of Southern Baptists.
"Often couples wait too long to get help and they give up on their relationship," says Bob Shelton, the CCSB's church strengthening team leader.
"Events like this allow couples to open up the dialogue, to talk about areas of concern and potential growth in their marriage." Shelton says taking those steps can greatly increase the chances of a relationship making it through stormy times.
"I don't think we're intended to just survive in a relationship. I think God meant for us to thrive in our marriages," says Shelton.
Tickets for Chapman's seminar are available from Christian Publications, Blessings and Mountainview Bookstore.
[email protected]
© The Calgary Herald 2008
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
This is about a faith based approach to marital issues. Something that perhaps can be applied to our community as well. There is strength in pluralism.sherali786 wrote:Oh why you posting stuff thats not important to us ? post stuff about our imam...What does he think about intercast marriages?
I am not interested in the non-sense your posting.
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sherali786
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:00 am
Well..first of all..how much faith you have got in our reilgion ?And Its good if we all work together and it helps our community. But marriage is not a way to show that you want peace, stablity and progress.
Aga Khan: Pluralism is fundamental to world peace and prosperity for all of us, no matter what our faith community or our home. The richness of cultural and religious and ethnic pluralism is reduced to nothing more than homogeneity and “otherness,” then our communities of strangers fall apart, and either we walk further away into different gated communities, or we fight, or both. Its for the peace ..not gettin married in someother community and finding peace.
He also said ,
This ethic of exploration and interconnectedness is o­ne that is deeply shared by the Ismaili community. It is an ethic, in fact, that is firmly rooted in our faith — a value system which grows from deeply spiritual roots. It understands that human diversity is itself a gift of Allah — that pluralism is not a threat but a blessing. It sees the desire to explore and connect as a way to learn and grow – not to dilute our identities but to enrich our self-knowledge. This ethic emanates ultimately from a relationship to the Divine which inspires a deep sense of personal humility — and a relationship to humankind which is infused with a spirit of generous service and mutual respect.
Aga Khan: Pluralism is fundamental to world peace and prosperity for all of us, no matter what our faith community or our home. The richness of cultural and religious and ethnic pluralism is reduced to nothing more than homogeneity and “otherness,” then our communities of strangers fall apart, and either we walk further away into different gated communities, or we fight, or both. Its for the peace ..not gettin married in someother community and finding peace.
He also said ,
This ethic of exploration and interconnectedness is o­ne that is deeply shared by the Ismaili community. It is an ethic, in fact, that is firmly rooted in our faith — a value system which grows from deeply spiritual roots. It understands that human diversity is itself a gift of Allah — that pluralism is not a threat but a blessing. It sees the desire to explore and connect as a way to learn and grow – not to dilute our identities but to enrich our self-knowledge. This ethic emanates ultimately from a relationship to the Divine which inspires a deep sense of personal humility — and a relationship to humankind which is infused with a spirit of generous service and mutual respect.
June 21, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
A Dubious Milestone
By BOB HERBERT
Some years ago, I wrote about a teenager named Kendra Newkirk, who was raised by her mom and had only seen her dad once in her life. Because of an emergency, Kendra and her mom had to meet the father at a particularly busy public location in Brooklyn.
Kendra had no idea what he looked like. “It was hard,” she told me. “He could have been any one of those men walking on the street. I kept asking my mother: ‘Is that him? Is that him?’ ”
I’ve been thinking about Kendra ever since Barack Obama spoke on Father’s Day about the tragic flight of so many American fathers, especially black fathers, from their children’s lives.
His comments came as the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston was compiling data that revealed a dubious milestone. In 2006, for the first time in U.S. history, a majority of all births to women under 30 — 50.4 percent — were out of wedlock. Nearly 80 percent of births among black women were out of wedlock.
By comparison, when John F. Kennedy was elected president in 1960, just 6 percent of all births were to unmarried women under 30.
Since then, the percentages have risen across the ethnic spectrum. One-third of white, non-Hispanic women under 30 who gave birth in 2006 were unmarried. For Hispanics, it was 51 percent.
“Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important,” said Senator Obama, in remarks he delivered at the Apostolic Church of God in Chicago. “And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation ...
“But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that too many fathers are missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”
This is not a simple matter. Obviously, fathers should care for their children. But just wagging a finger and telling them sternly to step up to their responsibilities is about as effective as hollering at the wind.
Senator Obama touched on this when he talked about the need for certain policy changes to make it easier for young men to fulfill their parental obligations — for example, offering tax incentives and job training to those making a sincere effort.
“We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them,” he said.
But a lot more is needed. One of the main reasons out-of-wedlock births have skyrocketed in recent decades is because it has become so difficult for poor and poorly educated young men to earn enough to support a family.
There is no doubt that a lot of clowns have fathered babies when they shouldn’t have, and too many have irresponsibly taken a walk. But it’s also incredibly difficult for many of these young people to find the kind of employment that makes raising a family feasible.
The U.S. economy does not come close to providing decent employment — enough jobs — for everyone who wants to work. At the lowest end of the economic ladder the crisis in employment is reminiscent of the Great Depression in its intensity.
It is in this group of poor and educationally deprived young people that out-of-wedlock births are highest.
Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies, put it this way in a research paper:
“The marriage rates of all native-born young males and young black males (22-32 years old) in the U.S. are strongly correlated with the annual earnings of these young men. The higher their annual earnings, the more likely they are to be married. Among native-born black males, those men with earnings over $60,000 were four times more likely to be married than their peers with annual earnings under $20,000.
“Unfortunately, the mean annual earnings of young men without four-year college degrees have plummeted substantially over the past 30 years, and declined again over the 2000-2007 period. Declining economic fortunes of young men without college degrees underlie the rise in out-of-wedlock child-bearing, and they are creating a new demographic nightmare for the nation.”
His words of warning echoed those I heard a few weeks ago from Walter Fields of the Community Service Society in New York. “These are the kids everyone forgets about,” he said. “It’s a huge population, and I think of it as the hidden crisis of America.”
Employment is the master key to the thriving families that Senator Obama talked about and that are supposed to be the American ideal. If we can’t achieve something close to full employment for the wider society, there is very little hope for those mired at the bottom.
Op-Ed Columnist
A Dubious Milestone
By BOB HERBERT
Some years ago, I wrote about a teenager named Kendra Newkirk, who was raised by her mom and had only seen her dad once in her life. Because of an emergency, Kendra and her mom had to meet the father at a particularly busy public location in Brooklyn.
Kendra had no idea what he looked like. “It was hard,” she told me. “He could have been any one of those men walking on the street. I kept asking my mother: ‘Is that him? Is that him?’ ”
I’ve been thinking about Kendra ever since Barack Obama spoke on Father’s Day about the tragic flight of so many American fathers, especially black fathers, from their children’s lives.
His comments came as the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University in Boston was compiling data that revealed a dubious milestone. In 2006, for the first time in U.S. history, a majority of all births to women under 30 — 50.4 percent — were out of wedlock. Nearly 80 percent of births among black women were out of wedlock.
By comparison, when John F. Kennedy was elected president in 1960, just 6 percent of all births were to unmarried women under 30.
Since then, the percentages have risen across the ethnic spectrum. One-third of white, non-Hispanic women under 30 who gave birth in 2006 were unmarried. For Hispanics, it was 51 percent.
“Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important,” said Senator Obama, in remarks he delivered at the Apostolic Church of God in Chicago. “And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation ...
“But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that too many fathers are missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”
This is not a simple matter. Obviously, fathers should care for their children. But just wagging a finger and telling them sternly to step up to their responsibilities is about as effective as hollering at the wind.
Senator Obama touched on this when he talked about the need for certain policy changes to make it easier for young men to fulfill their parental obligations — for example, offering tax incentives and job training to those making a sincere effort.
“We should be making it easier for fathers who make responsible choices and harder for those who avoid them,” he said.
But a lot more is needed. One of the main reasons out-of-wedlock births have skyrocketed in recent decades is because it has become so difficult for poor and poorly educated young men to earn enough to support a family.
There is no doubt that a lot of clowns have fathered babies when they shouldn’t have, and too many have irresponsibly taken a walk. But it’s also incredibly difficult for many of these young people to find the kind of employment that makes raising a family feasible.
The U.S. economy does not come close to providing decent employment — enough jobs — for everyone who wants to work. At the lowest end of the economic ladder the crisis in employment is reminiscent of the Great Depression in its intensity.
It is in this group of poor and educationally deprived young people that out-of-wedlock births are highest.
Andrew Sum, director of the Center for Labor Market Studies, put it this way in a research paper:
“The marriage rates of all native-born young males and young black males (22-32 years old) in the U.S. are strongly correlated with the annual earnings of these young men. The higher their annual earnings, the more likely they are to be married. Among native-born black males, those men with earnings over $60,000 were four times more likely to be married than their peers with annual earnings under $20,000.
“Unfortunately, the mean annual earnings of young men without four-year college degrees have plummeted substantially over the past 30 years, and declined again over the 2000-2007 period. Declining economic fortunes of young men without college degrees underlie the rise in out-of-wedlock child-bearing, and they are creating a new demographic nightmare for the nation.”
His words of warning echoed those I heard a few weeks ago from Walter Fields of the Community Service Society in New York. “These are the kids everyone forgets about,” he said. “It’s a huge population, and I think of it as the hidden crisis of America.”
Employment is the master key to the thriving families that Senator Obama talked about and that are supposed to be the American ideal. If we can’t achieve something close to full employment for the wider society, there is very little hope for those mired at the bottom.
August 13, 2008
Health Benefits Inspire Rush to Marry, or Divorce
By KEVIN SACK
LAKE CHARLES, La. — It was only last February that Brandy Brady met Ricky Huggins at a Mardi Gras ball here. By April, they had decided to marry.
Ms. Brady says she loves Mr. Huggins, but she worries they are moving too fast. She questions how well they really know each other, and wants to better understand his mood swings.
But Ms. Brady, 38, also finds much to admire in Mr. Huggins, who is three years older. He strikes her as trustworthy and caring. He has a stable job as a plumber and a two-bedroom house. And perhaps above all, said Ms. Brady, who received a kidney transplant last year, “He’s got great insurance.”
More than romance, the couple readily acknowledge, it is Mr. Huggins’s Blue Cross/Blue Shield HMO policy that is driving their rush to the altar.
In a country where insurance is out of reach for many, it is not uncommon for couples to marry, or even to divorce, at least partly so one spouse can obtain or maintain health coverage.
There is no way to know how often it happens, but lawyers and patient advocacy groups say they see cases regularly.
In a poll conducted this spring by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a health policy research group, 7 percent of adults said someone in their household had married in the past year to gain access to insurance. The foundation cautions that the number should not be taken literally, but rather as an intriguing indicator that some Americans “are making major life decisions on the basis of health care concerns.”
Stephen L. J. Hoffman, an officiant at a wedding chapel in Covington, Ky., said he was no longer shocked that one of 10 couples cite health insurance as the reason they stand before him.
“They come in and say, ‘We were going to get married anyway, but right now we really need the insurance,’ ” said Mr. Hoffman. “There may be an unplanned pregnancy, or there is an illness, or they’ve lost their job and can’t get insurance.”
Though money and matrimony have been linked since Genesis, marrying for health coverage is a more modern convention. For today’s couples, “in sickness and in health” may seem less a lover’s troth than an actuarial contract. They marry for better or worse, for richer or poorer, for co-pays and deductibles.
Bo and Dena McLain of Milford, Ohio, eloped in March so he could add her to his group policy because her nursing school required proof of insurance. Corey Marshall and Kim Wetzel, who had dated in San Francisco for four years, moved up their wedding plans by a year so she could switch to his policy after her employer raised premiums
Ms. Brady and Mr. Huggins concede that their discussions about marriage have been freighted with cost-benefit analysis.
Ms. Brady learned three years ago that she had end-stage renal disease and after two years of dialysis received the transplant in May 2007. Her medical costs remain substantial and unpredictable. The demands of dialysis forced her to give up a much-loved job as a store manager for the Body Shop, and she eventually lost her insurance.
She now receives a Social Security disability check of $1,181 a month, and spends $95 of that on premiums for Medicare, the federal health insurance program for the elderly and disabled, which insures kidney transplant patients for up to three years.
With Medicare covering only 80 percent of most charges, however, Ms. Brady still has been left with thousands of dollars in bills.
Until this spring, Ms. Brady filled the gaps with a supplemental policy bought from State Farm. In April, she received notice that the premium was more than doubling, to $2,621 a quarter, from $1,180.
“ ‘I’ve got to cancel it,’ ” Ms. Brady said she told her agent. “I’m running out of family members to pay for it.”
That is when Ms. Brady and Mr. Huggins started talking about marriage. They reasoned that if they wed, Mr. Huggins could add her at modest cost to the group policy he buys through his union. That policy, combined with Medicare, would provide full coverage.
“I told him, ‘Let’s just do it. Can we do it without family?’ ” Ms. Brady recalled. “I felt the only way I could get around this was to marry him.”
As Ms. Brady has weighed her marital doubts against her medical needs, the couple has shifted wedding dates four times, most recently to Oct. 11. Her instincts tell her to delay. But each time the bills mount, she feels pressure to act sooner rather than later.
“I love him a lot, and I want to marry him,” Ms. Brady said. “I just don’t want to be forced to marry him early for insurance purposes.”
Mr. Huggins asks only that he have enough time to invite a few family members to the ceremony.
“I know I love her,” he said, “and I know I want to spend the rest of my life with her. The reasons and how fast we do it, that’s just secondary.”
In some instances, the need for insurance may prolong unhappy marriages.
When a mammogram confirmed in April 2007 that Sherri Parish had a lump in her breast, she panicked not only because of the devastating health news, but also because she was two weeks from a court date to finalize her divorce. Across the ups and downs of a 20-year marriage, her husband, Jonathan, had insured her through his job as a construction foreman in Noblesville, Ind.
“It was a devastating time for me,” Ms. Parish said. “I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with either the prognosis or the financial side of it.”
A nurse and mother of three, Ms. Parish, 47, had had little contact with her husband since they separated a year earlier. Through lawyers, she asked Mr. Parish, 49, if he would consider a delay so she could pursue treatment. He agreed.
“He didn’t want me to be without health care coverage because I’d never had it without him,” Ms. Parish said. “He’d always been the breadwinner, and I always worked two or three days a week and raised the children.”
Other couples, like Michelle and Marion Moulton, are forced to consider divorce so that an ailing spouse can qualify for affordable insurance.
Ms. Moulton, 46, a homemaker who lives near Seattle with her husband and two children, learned three years ago that she had serious liver damage, a side effect, she believes, of drugs she was once prescribed. She is trying to get on a transplant list, but the clock is ticking; her once slender body has ballooned, and her doctors say her liver could give out at any time.
Mr. Moulton, a self-employed painting contractor, maintains a catastrophic coverage plan for his family, but its high deductibles and unpredictable reimbursements have left them $50,000 in debt. Without better coverage, a transplant could add unthinkable sums.
Two years ago, Ms. Moulton looked into buying more comprehensive coverage through the Washington State Health Insurance Pool, a state-financed program for high-risk patients. She found the premiums unaffordable, but noticed that the state offered subsidies to those with low incomes. As their debts and desperation multiplied, it occurred to Ms. Moulton that divorcing her husband of 17 years would make her eligible for the subsidized coverage.
“I felt like I had done this to us,” she said. “We had worked hard our entire lives, and if this was all the insurance we had, we could become homeless. I just said, ‘You know, we really need to sit down and talk about divorce.’ ”
Mr. Moulton would not consider it — at first. “From a male point of view, you want to be able to fix things, you want to be able to provide,” he said.
“Then you start looking at what things cost and what someone with no assets can get in terms of funding, and you have to start thinking about it.”
The conversations ebbed and flowed with the family’s financial pressures. They talked about the effect on their children and where they might live. They weighed the legal and financial risks against the prospects of bankruptcy.
The debate continued until this summer, when Mr. Moulton’s father offered financial help. “I know we don’t take charity from anyone,” Mr. Moulton told his wife, “but I’m not going to divorce you and I’m not going to let you die.”
Though grateful for the lifeline, the couple remains unsettled by how close they came.
“Nobody should have to make a choice like that,” Ms. Moulton said. “What happened to our country? I don’t remember growing up like this.”
Health Benefits Inspire Rush to Marry, or Divorce
By KEVIN SACK
LAKE CHARLES, La. — It was only last February that Brandy Brady met Ricky Huggins at a Mardi Gras ball here. By April, they had decided to marry.
Ms. Brady says she loves Mr. Huggins, but she worries they are moving too fast. She questions how well they really know each other, and wants to better understand his mood swings.
But Ms. Brady, 38, also finds much to admire in Mr. Huggins, who is three years older. He strikes her as trustworthy and caring. He has a stable job as a plumber and a two-bedroom house. And perhaps above all, said Ms. Brady, who received a kidney transplant last year, “He’s got great insurance.”
More than romance, the couple readily acknowledge, it is Mr. Huggins’s Blue Cross/Blue Shield HMO policy that is driving their rush to the altar.
In a country where insurance is out of reach for many, it is not uncommon for couples to marry, or even to divorce, at least partly so one spouse can obtain or maintain health coverage.
There is no way to know how often it happens, but lawyers and patient advocacy groups say they see cases regularly.
In a poll conducted this spring by the Kaiser Family Foundation, a health policy research group, 7 percent of adults said someone in their household had married in the past year to gain access to insurance. The foundation cautions that the number should not be taken literally, but rather as an intriguing indicator that some Americans “are making major life decisions on the basis of health care concerns.”
Stephen L. J. Hoffman, an officiant at a wedding chapel in Covington, Ky., said he was no longer shocked that one of 10 couples cite health insurance as the reason they stand before him.
“They come in and say, ‘We were going to get married anyway, but right now we really need the insurance,’ ” said Mr. Hoffman. “There may be an unplanned pregnancy, or there is an illness, or they’ve lost their job and can’t get insurance.”
Though money and matrimony have been linked since Genesis, marrying for health coverage is a more modern convention. For today’s couples, “in sickness and in health” may seem less a lover’s troth than an actuarial contract. They marry for better or worse, for richer or poorer, for co-pays and deductibles.
Bo and Dena McLain of Milford, Ohio, eloped in March so he could add her to his group policy because her nursing school required proof of insurance. Corey Marshall and Kim Wetzel, who had dated in San Francisco for four years, moved up their wedding plans by a year so she could switch to his policy after her employer raised premiums
Ms. Brady and Mr. Huggins concede that their discussions about marriage have been freighted with cost-benefit analysis.
Ms. Brady learned three years ago that she had end-stage renal disease and after two years of dialysis received the transplant in May 2007. Her medical costs remain substantial and unpredictable. The demands of dialysis forced her to give up a much-loved job as a store manager for the Body Shop, and she eventually lost her insurance.
She now receives a Social Security disability check of $1,181 a month, and spends $95 of that on premiums for Medicare, the federal health insurance program for the elderly and disabled, which insures kidney transplant patients for up to three years.
With Medicare covering only 80 percent of most charges, however, Ms. Brady still has been left with thousands of dollars in bills.
Until this spring, Ms. Brady filled the gaps with a supplemental policy bought from State Farm. In April, she received notice that the premium was more than doubling, to $2,621 a quarter, from $1,180.
“ ‘I’ve got to cancel it,’ ” Ms. Brady said she told her agent. “I’m running out of family members to pay for it.”
That is when Ms. Brady and Mr. Huggins started talking about marriage. They reasoned that if they wed, Mr. Huggins could add her at modest cost to the group policy he buys through his union. That policy, combined with Medicare, would provide full coverage.
“I told him, ‘Let’s just do it. Can we do it without family?’ ” Ms. Brady recalled. “I felt the only way I could get around this was to marry him.”
As Ms. Brady has weighed her marital doubts against her medical needs, the couple has shifted wedding dates four times, most recently to Oct. 11. Her instincts tell her to delay. But each time the bills mount, she feels pressure to act sooner rather than later.
“I love him a lot, and I want to marry him,” Ms. Brady said. “I just don’t want to be forced to marry him early for insurance purposes.”
Mr. Huggins asks only that he have enough time to invite a few family members to the ceremony.
“I know I love her,” he said, “and I know I want to spend the rest of my life with her. The reasons and how fast we do it, that’s just secondary.”
In some instances, the need for insurance may prolong unhappy marriages.
When a mammogram confirmed in April 2007 that Sherri Parish had a lump in her breast, she panicked not only because of the devastating health news, but also because she was two weeks from a court date to finalize her divorce. Across the ups and downs of a 20-year marriage, her husband, Jonathan, had insured her through his job as a construction foreman in Noblesville, Ind.
“It was a devastating time for me,” Ms. Parish said. “I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with either the prognosis or the financial side of it.”
A nurse and mother of three, Ms. Parish, 47, had had little contact with her husband since they separated a year earlier. Through lawyers, she asked Mr. Parish, 49, if he would consider a delay so she could pursue treatment. He agreed.
“He didn’t want me to be without health care coverage because I’d never had it without him,” Ms. Parish said. “He’d always been the breadwinner, and I always worked two or three days a week and raised the children.”
Other couples, like Michelle and Marion Moulton, are forced to consider divorce so that an ailing spouse can qualify for affordable insurance.
Ms. Moulton, 46, a homemaker who lives near Seattle with her husband and two children, learned three years ago that she had serious liver damage, a side effect, she believes, of drugs she was once prescribed. She is trying to get on a transplant list, but the clock is ticking; her once slender body has ballooned, and her doctors say her liver could give out at any time.
Mr. Moulton, a self-employed painting contractor, maintains a catastrophic coverage plan for his family, but its high deductibles and unpredictable reimbursements have left them $50,000 in debt. Without better coverage, a transplant could add unthinkable sums.
Two years ago, Ms. Moulton looked into buying more comprehensive coverage through the Washington State Health Insurance Pool, a state-financed program for high-risk patients. She found the premiums unaffordable, but noticed that the state offered subsidies to those with low incomes. As their debts and desperation multiplied, it occurred to Ms. Moulton that divorcing her husband of 17 years would make her eligible for the subsidized coverage.
“I felt like I had done this to us,” she said. “We had worked hard our entire lives, and if this was all the insurance we had, we could become homeless. I just said, ‘You know, we really need to sit down and talk about divorce.’ ”
Mr. Moulton would not consider it — at first. “From a male point of view, you want to be able to fix things, you want to be able to provide,” he said.
“Then you start looking at what things cost and what someone with no assets can get in terms of funding, and you have to start thinking about it.”
The conversations ebbed and flowed with the family’s financial pressures. They talked about the effect on their children and where they might live. They weighed the legal and financial risks against the prospects of bankruptcy.
The debate continued until this summer, when Mr. Moulton’s father offered financial help. “I know we don’t take charity from anyone,” Mr. Moulton told his wife, “but I’m not going to divorce you and I’m not going to let you die.”
Though grateful for the lifeline, the couple remains unsettled by how close they came.
“Nobody should have to make a choice like that,” Ms. Moulton said. “What happened to our country? I don’t remember growing up like this.”
Nigerian looks for wife No. 87
Herald News Services
Tuesday, September 02, 2008
An 84-year-old Nigerian Muslim preacher with 86 wives intends to marry more women despite an order from local Islamic chiefs to immediately divorce all but four of them, his spokesman said Monday.
Nigerian newspapers reported that Mohammed Bello, who lives in Niger state in central Nigeria with his wives, and at least 170 children, was ordered by local religious elders to divorce 82 of his wives by Sunday or leave the area.
Some newspapers said Monday he had agreed at a meeting with local officials to divorce all but four of the women and had asked for time to return them to their families. But his spokesman, Mohammed Tahir, denied there had been any such deal."He is not going to divorce any of his wives. Rather he is going to marry more."
Many Muslim scholars say Islam allows men to have up to four wives who must be treated equally.
© The Calgary Herald 2008
Herald News Services
Tuesday, September 02, 2008
An 84-year-old Nigerian Muslim preacher with 86 wives intends to marry more women despite an order from local Islamic chiefs to immediately divorce all but four of them, his spokesman said Monday.
Nigerian newspapers reported that Mohammed Bello, who lives in Niger state in central Nigeria with his wives, and at least 170 children, was ordered by local religious elders to divorce 82 of his wives by Sunday or leave the area.
Some newspapers said Monday he had agreed at a meeting with local officials to divorce all but four of the women and had asked for time to return them to their families. But his spokesman, Mohammed Tahir, denied there had been any such deal."He is not going to divorce any of his wives. Rather he is going to marry more."
Many Muslim scholars say Islam allows men to have up to four wives who must be treated equally.
© The Calgary Herald 2008
Pakistani police stop children's marriage
Reuters
Saturday, November 01, 2008
Pakistani police raided a child marriage ceremony in the city of Karachi and arrested a cleric who was presiding over the wedding of a four-year-old girl and a seven-year-old boy, police and residents said on Friday.
Pakistani law says people must be 18 to marry but some Islamic laws allow girls to marry after puberty. Despite the laws, young girls are often given away in marriage to settle disputes or pay off debts.
Police said they raided a house on Thursday evening following complaints from residents, including a former district government official who said the girl was being married off by her father for about 500,000 rupees ($6,138).
© The Calgary Herald 2008
Reuters
Saturday, November 01, 2008
Pakistani police raided a child marriage ceremony in the city of Karachi and arrested a cleric who was presiding over the wedding of a four-year-old girl and a seven-year-old boy, police and residents said on Friday.
Pakistani law says people must be 18 to marry but some Islamic laws allow girls to marry after puberty. Despite the laws, young girls are often given away in marriage to settle disputes or pay off debts.
Police said they raided a house on Thursday evening following complaints from residents, including a former district government official who said the girl was being married off by her father for about 500,000 rupees ($6,138).
© The Calgary Herald 2008
Sperm isn't everything
Calgary HeraldJanuary 18, 2009
In ruling that Pasqualino Cornelio must continue to pay child support for twins who are not his biological children, the Ontario Superior Court has rightly upheld the true meaning of fatherhood.
The case involves twin teenagers whose parentage came into doubt shortly before the Toronto-area man and his wife separated.
In spite of those doubts, Cornelio applied for joint custody. DNA tests proved he was not the twins' father, but in this case the results were rightly deemed not to be a factor in the ruling on child support.
Had Cornelio entertained doubts and gotten a DNA test when the twins were infants, his situation would be different and he should not be expected to pay child support for the next 18 years, if he had no intention of staying in the children's lives.
However, these children were teens. Cornelio treated them as his children all those years, and to them he was their dad. If the defining measure of fatherhood is merely the contribution of sperm, then the relationship between adoptive parent and adopted child is essentially nullified, as is the role a stepfather might also play in a blended family.
A dad is the man who raises the children--he sits up with them when they're feverish in the middle of the night, he goes to their hockey games, he reads them bedtime stories, helps them with their homework and all the million other things that go into being a parent.
Cornelio filled that role for the twins; their biological father was not in the picture and their mother claims she does not remember having an affair.
In a day when fatherhood has become a much-maligned institution, sneered at by those who claim the right to reconfigure the family as they see fit, and denigrated as being a mere expend-able accessory, it is heartening to see a court uphold and reinforce the authentic meaning and value of the word.
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Calgary HeraldJanuary 18, 2009
In ruling that Pasqualino Cornelio must continue to pay child support for twins who are not his biological children, the Ontario Superior Court has rightly upheld the true meaning of fatherhood.
The case involves twin teenagers whose parentage came into doubt shortly before the Toronto-area man and his wife separated.
In spite of those doubts, Cornelio applied for joint custody. DNA tests proved he was not the twins' father, but in this case the results were rightly deemed not to be a factor in the ruling on child support.
Had Cornelio entertained doubts and gotten a DNA test when the twins were infants, his situation would be different and he should not be expected to pay child support for the next 18 years, if he had no intention of staying in the children's lives.
However, these children were teens. Cornelio treated them as his children all those years, and to them he was their dad. If the defining measure of fatherhood is merely the contribution of sperm, then the relationship between adoptive parent and adopted child is essentially nullified, as is the role a stepfather might also play in a blended family.
A dad is the man who raises the children--he sits up with them when they're feverish in the middle of the night, he goes to their hockey games, he reads them bedtime stories, helps them with their homework and all the million other things that go into being a parent.
Cornelio filled that role for the twins; their biological father was not in the picture and their mother claims she does not remember having an affair.
In a day when fatherhood has become a much-maligned institution, sneered at by those who claim the right to reconfigure the family as they see fit, and denigrated as being a mere expend-able accessory, it is heartening to see a court uphold and reinforce the authentic meaning and value of the word.
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
When women get what they want, more likely men will too
Couples don't get together now, in hope of becoming divorced later
By Nigel Hannaford, Calgary HeraldFebruary 14, 2009
So, here it is, Valentine's Day again.
Love it. I am so a believer, even if the truth about the good saint has been misrepresented by legend and Hallmark cards all these centuries. (See our comment to the left, about praying to the wrong saint.)
Thing is, every year, lots of us on this half of the gender divide stumble around wondering what women want. As in, what they really want, not what they say they want.
Of equal concern however, is to figure out what WE want. (And, it will absolutely not be for women to be able to read men's minds, the way Mel Gibson could read women's minds in the film What Women Want.)
I raise the matter because if half of all marriages recorded end in divorce, and presumably a similar proportion of less formal unions, somebody is not getting what they want. That is, couples don't get together now, in hope of becoming divorced later. So, while a breakup may sometimes be a relief, to the extent it represents a failure between two people it must always be a disappointment.
In other words, at some point in a relationship men want it to succeed just as much as women do. Heaven knows that point can slip away faster than quarters in a Calgary parking meter, but there it is--once entered into, men want a relationship to be successful.
So, if it isn't, what's the problem? Are we trying to do with a hammer what really needs a pair of pliers? As Dr. Phil says, "How's what you're doing working for you?"
I make no pretences to being an expert here, but there are a couple of authors who have always struck me as having something useful to say affirming words, quality time, gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. His advice, find out what she wants, and do it. Life will be better. And your clue is what she herself is doing.
It should be noted of course, that even the most profound change of heart may take time to register. The story goes that a chap who read one of Chapman's books was so afflicted with remorse at the shabby way he'd been treating his wife, that he went out and bought her a huge box of chocolates, a bunch of flowers and made reservations at an expensive restaurant. Pleased as could be with himself, he walked into the house with on the battle of the sexes, and how it doesn't actually have to be quite such a battle. As us guys tend not to read self-help books, here's the 30-second synopsis, courtesy of my wife.
One writer is Gary Chapman, whose basic point is that people tend to express love the way they want to receive it, rather than the way their lover wants to receive it. That is, a man who loves gifts will tend to give great gifts, which is nice except that if what his wife really wants is his time --and she's not getting it-- she will let him know in those ways a woman will. Chapman identifies five of what he calls "love languages," those being the chocolates in one hand and the flowers in the other. His wife took one look at him, and broke down. Through her tears she grumbled, "What a day! The dishwasher's broken down, my car won't start, the twins have chickenpox, and now you come home drunk."
Anyway, the book is called The Five Love Languages.
The other one is His needs, Her needs, by Willard Harley.
The Coles Notes on this is that men and women have a completely different list.
So what does Harley think men want?
Sex. I guess we're like those little birds a York University professor has been studying that are in such a hurry to get back to Canada from the Amazon in the spring, that he's tracked them flying 271 kilometres a day, often making a risky 12-hour flight over water (the Gulf of Mexico) to advance their ETA.
Even commercial aircraft wouldn't do that on one engine: What's their hurry?Why, it's time to breed.
After that, we want a companion for recreation--we want you to watch the game with us--and only then does the matter of appearance crop up. All this based on extensive counselling research, by the way, so while individuals may differ, this is Harley's big picture. Finally, men want domestic support--dinner on the table--and admiration.
Lots of it.
Women, however, apart from wanting us to be mind-readers, want (in this order) affection, conversation, honesty, financial support and what Harley calls "family commitment." (That could mean the price of sex and all the other things may be exposure to in-laws, from time to time. Gentlemen, you will notice sex doesn't even make the top five.)
Put the books together, and a man's strategy for getting what he wants looks a lot like finding out what his girl is aching for most, and seeing to it.
And probably, more frequently than just every Feb. 14.
[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Couples don't get together now, in hope of becoming divorced later
By Nigel Hannaford, Calgary HeraldFebruary 14, 2009
So, here it is, Valentine's Day again.
Love it. I am so a believer, even if the truth about the good saint has been misrepresented by legend and Hallmark cards all these centuries. (See our comment to the left, about praying to the wrong saint.)
Thing is, every year, lots of us on this half of the gender divide stumble around wondering what women want. As in, what they really want, not what they say they want.
Of equal concern however, is to figure out what WE want. (And, it will absolutely not be for women to be able to read men's minds, the way Mel Gibson could read women's minds in the film What Women Want.)
I raise the matter because if half of all marriages recorded end in divorce, and presumably a similar proportion of less formal unions, somebody is not getting what they want. That is, couples don't get together now, in hope of becoming divorced later. So, while a breakup may sometimes be a relief, to the extent it represents a failure between two people it must always be a disappointment.
In other words, at some point in a relationship men want it to succeed just as much as women do. Heaven knows that point can slip away faster than quarters in a Calgary parking meter, but there it is--once entered into, men want a relationship to be successful.
So, if it isn't, what's the problem? Are we trying to do with a hammer what really needs a pair of pliers? As Dr. Phil says, "How's what you're doing working for you?"
I make no pretences to being an expert here, but there are a couple of authors who have always struck me as having something useful to say affirming words, quality time, gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. His advice, find out what she wants, and do it. Life will be better. And your clue is what she herself is doing.
It should be noted of course, that even the most profound change of heart may take time to register. The story goes that a chap who read one of Chapman's books was so afflicted with remorse at the shabby way he'd been treating his wife, that he went out and bought her a huge box of chocolates, a bunch of flowers and made reservations at an expensive restaurant. Pleased as could be with himself, he walked into the house with on the battle of the sexes, and how it doesn't actually have to be quite such a battle. As us guys tend not to read self-help books, here's the 30-second synopsis, courtesy of my wife.
One writer is Gary Chapman, whose basic point is that people tend to express love the way they want to receive it, rather than the way their lover wants to receive it. That is, a man who loves gifts will tend to give great gifts, which is nice except that if what his wife really wants is his time --and she's not getting it-- she will let him know in those ways a woman will. Chapman identifies five of what he calls "love languages," those being the chocolates in one hand and the flowers in the other. His wife took one look at him, and broke down. Through her tears she grumbled, "What a day! The dishwasher's broken down, my car won't start, the twins have chickenpox, and now you come home drunk."
Anyway, the book is called The Five Love Languages.
The other one is His needs, Her needs, by Willard Harley.
The Coles Notes on this is that men and women have a completely different list.
So what does Harley think men want?
Sex. I guess we're like those little birds a York University professor has been studying that are in such a hurry to get back to Canada from the Amazon in the spring, that he's tracked them flying 271 kilometres a day, often making a risky 12-hour flight over water (the Gulf of Mexico) to advance their ETA.
Even commercial aircraft wouldn't do that on one engine: What's their hurry?Why, it's time to breed.
After that, we want a companion for recreation--we want you to watch the game with us--and only then does the matter of appearance crop up. All this based on extensive counselling research, by the way, so while individuals may differ, this is Harley's big picture. Finally, men want domestic support--dinner on the table--and admiration.
Lots of it.
Women, however, apart from wanting us to be mind-readers, want (in this order) affection, conversation, honesty, financial support and what Harley calls "family commitment." (That could mean the price of sex and all the other things may be exposure to in-laws, from time to time. Gentlemen, you will notice sex doesn't even make the top five.)
Put the books together, and a man's strategy for getting what he wants looks a lot like finding out what his girl is aching for most, and seeing to it.
And probably, more frequently than just every Feb. 14.
[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Marriage much more than stars in eyes
By Graeme Morton, Calgary HeraldFebruary 15, 2009
After almost 50 years, Jennifer Pendergast still thinks of her marriage to husband Barry as a work in progress.
"It's been a blessing, a wonderful experience, but we still work on it every day. We are different people than we were when we got married all those years ago," says Jennifer.
Yesterday being St. Valentine's Day, love lay thick in the air in Calgary. Longtime couples wined and dined amid sentimental cards and bouquets of roses while scores of marriage proposals were stammered out by nervous men on bended knees.
For those 24 hours, love seemed so elementary, my dear Watson.
But today, and for all the other days of the year, this love and marriage stuff can be amazingly complex, bewildering, frustrating and all too often end in stony silence, shared stagnation or even separation.
That's where the Pendergasts come in. They are Calgary-area advisers for The Marriage Course and its counterpart, The Marriage Preparation Course, and lead the programs at their home church, Richmond Hill Baptist, 7251 Sierra Morena Blvd. S. W.
A number of Calgary congregations have hosted the courses this winter. New sessions of both programs start next Sunday, Feb. 22, at Richmond Hill Baptist.
These marriage courses were developed at Holy Trinity Church in London, which spawned the popular Alpha program that offers an introduction to Christian beliefs and practices.
"We start each session with the participants sharing dinner together and then, like Alpha, there is a video presentation on the night's particular topic," says Jennifer.
Couples are supplied with a workbook and adjourn to individual tables to talk candidly about their own experiences and feelings. There are no "public sharing" moments which Jennifer says can become an uncomfortable ordeal.
Jennifer notes that while there is an unabashed, non-denominational, spiritual grounding to both courses--an understanding that God is at the centre of each marriage--the content is not meant to act as a religious conversion tool.
"During one session, couples are asked to pray for each other, but there is an option just to talk if you feel more comfortable that way," says Jennifer. "In our exit surveys, we have never had anyone say they felt there was too much religious content."
Barry notes that some couples are initially reluctant to take the course because they view it as an admission that their relationship isn't ideal.
"But there is no perfect marriage," he says. "We take our cars in for regular maintenance. We get regular checkups on our teeth. So why would we think our marriage wouldn't benefit from working together on it?"
Topics covered by both courses include the foundations of marriage, conflict resolution, the variety of "love languages," good sex, dealing with parents and in-laws and those two cornerstones to any successful marriage--communicating well and embracing the power to forgive.
"That ability, or lack of it, to really talk with each other is the main reason that marriages succeed or collapse. I'm married to a man who talks, and that's pretty rare. Communications skills are not stressed often enough, especially for males," says Jennifer.
"The session dealing with forgiveness is invariably one of the most powerful in the course," she adds.
"If you can deal effectively with issues and problems that come up, and then move on instead of letting them fester, that's a valuable tool to have. And forgiveness is a pillar of the Christian message."
The Marriage Course runs seven Sundays while the Marriage Preparation Course covers five weeks. At Richmond Hill Baptist, participants in both courses share meals, then divide into separate units.
"We've found the marriage preparation course is useful not just for young couples starting out, but for people marrying for a second time or who've been living together for an extended period," says Jennifer.
With the Canadian divorce rate stubbornly running in the 40 per cent range, people of faith seem no more immune to marital difficulties than those in the strictly secular world.
Both Barry and Jennifer think more Calgary churches need to offer marriage ministries in their programming. They have acted as resource people for a number of local congregations.
"Issues and problems with marriage are certainly out there in our city. We ignore them at our collective peril. We want people in churches to be proactive and do the preventive work to help their couples before they reach a point of crisis," says Jennifer.
Jennifer says The Marriage Course format is flexible enough that it can be held in private homes or other venues for smaller congregations. While the meals aren't mandatory, they are a superb opportunity for fellowship.
The Pendergasts will celebrate their 50th anniversary on Oct. 31. It seems only fair they share the secret to their marital happiness.
"If you have a healthy, happy relationship with your spouse, everything else--the kids, the career--can fall into place," says Jennifer. "And we've both got a good Monty Python/English sense of humour. We can be arguing about something and then we'll burst into laughter and say, 'This is ridiculous.' "
Barry stresses that no matter how busy couples are, they need to set aside regular times that are just for them.
"Jennifer and I still have fun together," he says. "We enjoy each other's company, which is pretty special."
Information on the course content is available at www.themarriagecourse.ca. Details and registration for the Richmond Hill Baptist courses are available by calling 403-281-4876 or at [email protected].
[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
By Graeme Morton, Calgary HeraldFebruary 15, 2009
After almost 50 years, Jennifer Pendergast still thinks of her marriage to husband Barry as a work in progress.
"It's been a blessing, a wonderful experience, but we still work on it every day. We are different people than we were when we got married all those years ago," says Jennifer.
Yesterday being St. Valentine's Day, love lay thick in the air in Calgary. Longtime couples wined and dined amid sentimental cards and bouquets of roses while scores of marriage proposals were stammered out by nervous men on bended knees.
For those 24 hours, love seemed so elementary, my dear Watson.
But today, and for all the other days of the year, this love and marriage stuff can be amazingly complex, bewildering, frustrating and all too often end in stony silence, shared stagnation or even separation.
That's where the Pendergasts come in. They are Calgary-area advisers for The Marriage Course and its counterpart, The Marriage Preparation Course, and lead the programs at their home church, Richmond Hill Baptist, 7251 Sierra Morena Blvd. S. W.
A number of Calgary congregations have hosted the courses this winter. New sessions of both programs start next Sunday, Feb. 22, at Richmond Hill Baptist.
These marriage courses were developed at Holy Trinity Church in London, which spawned the popular Alpha program that offers an introduction to Christian beliefs and practices.
"We start each session with the participants sharing dinner together and then, like Alpha, there is a video presentation on the night's particular topic," says Jennifer.
Couples are supplied with a workbook and adjourn to individual tables to talk candidly about their own experiences and feelings. There are no "public sharing" moments which Jennifer says can become an uncomfortable ordeal.
Jennifer notes that while there is an unabashed, non-denominational, spiritual grounding to both courses--an understanding that God is at the centre of each marriage--the content is not meant to act as a religious conversion tool.
"During one session, couples are asked to pray for each other, but there is an option just to talk if you feel more comfortable that way," says Jennifer. "In our exit surveys, we have never had anyone say they felt there was too much religious content."
Barry notes that some couples are initially reluctant to take the course because they view it as an admission that their relationship isn't ideal.
"But there is no perfect marriage," he says. "We take our cars in for regular maintenance. We get regular checkups on our teeth. So why would we think our marriage wouldn't benefit from working together on it?"
Topics covered by both courses include the foundations of marriage, conflict resolution, the variety of "love languages," good sex, dealing with parents and in-laws and those two cornerstones to any successful marriage--communicating well and embracing the power to forgive.
"That ability, or lack of it, to really talk with each other is the main reason that marriages succeed or collapse. I'm married to a man who talks, and that's pretty rare. Communications skills are not stressed often enough, especially for males," says Jennifer.
"The session dealing with forgiveness is invariably one of the most powerful in the course," she adds.
"If you can deal effectively with issues and problems that come up, and then move on instead of letting them fester, that's a valuable tool to have. And forgiveness is a pillar of the Christian message."
The Marriage Course runs seven Sundays while the Marriage Preparation Course covers five weeks. At Richmond Hill Baptist, participants in both courses share meals, then divide into separate units.
"We've found the marriage preparation course is useful not just for young couples starting out, but for people marrying for a second time or who've been living together for an extended period," says Jennifer.
With the Canadian divorce rate stubbornly running in the 40 per cent range, people of faith seem no more immune to marital difficulties than those in the strictly secular world.
Both Barry and Jennifer think more Calgary churches need to offer marriage ministries in their programming. They have acted as resource people for a number of local congregations.
"Issues and problems with marriage are certainly out there in our city. We ignore them at our collective peril. We want people in churches to be proactive and do the preventive work to help their couples before they reach a point of crisis," says Jennifer.
Jennifer says The Marriage Course format is flexible enough that it can be held in private homes or other venues for smaller congregations. While the meals aren't mandatory, they are a superb opportunity for fellowship.
The Pendergasts will celebrate their 50th anniversary on Oct. 31. It seems only fair they share the secret to their marital happiness.
"If you have a healthy, happy relationship with your spouse, everything else--the kids, the career--can fall into place," says Jennifer. "And we've both got a good Monty Python/English sense of humour. We can be arguing about something and then we'll burst into laughter and say, 'This is ridiculous.' "
Barry stresses that no matter how busy couples are, they need to set aside regular times that are just for them.
"Jennifer and I still have fun together," he says. "We enjoy each other's company, which is pretty special."
Information on the course content is available at www.themarriagecourse.ca. Details and registration for the Richmond Hill Baptist courses are available by calling 403-281-4876 or at [email protected].
[email protected]
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
-
Anion.Xenon
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:46 am
I Em In Love With A Girl Likeas See Also Is.
But The Prob Preceding Is That SHe Is Ismaili And I Aint.
And According To Her We Cant Marry.. Rather Her Father Wont Allow Us Both To, AS A Matter Of Respect For Her Family In Society.
But AS Far As I Have ..Searched...!! Have Got Up To This..!!
In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?
AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.
..Agha..Khan..Said In Alppo, Syria..8 November 2001
Marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith.. Now that religion is out of the question, Different faiths no barrier to marriage...
But Still...!! WHY :@!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accoring to Quran a Muslim Can marry any in ahl-e-kitab [Cristians, Jews, Muslims.etc] Then If Ismailis are muslims, Why cant they marry a ahl-e-kitab.
and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....
****From Memoirs of Aga Khan
"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion"****
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.
In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.
Hope this clears the misunderstanding.
The Administrator of ISMAILI.NET
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity.... such people are not considered true followers of Agha Khan but in fact if u realize being a true follower of Agha Khan's teachings is not really a big issue but yeah if ur true to the teachings of Allah, i.e. Quran... then u wont be having any problems....
if Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then y not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriages
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is marrying in another place instead of Jamat-Khana is nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? You can even better marry for instance in church. At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
_________________________________________________________
Still Cannot We Marry, I Live In Pakistan Here Societies ARE Undeveloped She Says... And They Are Unaware..!! Thus Her Father Wont Allow.
We HAve Been In Love Since Long 3 Years...Now It Seems To Us Both Impossible Survive...
We Cannot Run Away We Both Love Our Parents More... Than Eachother...
If We Dont We Should.. Its A Child's Responsibility..!!
Also Neither Of Us Intends To Change Our Religions, Cause I Love My Lord More Than Her And She Does Hers Prehaps Its The Same One. But Still Comes The Family Respect In Society If We Change Our Religions.
I Respect Ismailiism, I Respect Every Of Their Aspects.. Infact I Spend Most Of My Time In Her Society.. I Have Many Of My Friends Who ARe Ismaili...!! And She Does Respect My Islam Beliefs.
And One More Thing I Agreed To Change My Sect.. When I Am Something On My Own Self, [A GENETIC ENGINEER] And Dont HAve To Look Forward To My Parents To Feed Me Up. But I Then Came To Know That Its Only Allowed When Whole Family Of Marrying Person Coverts.. Thats So Hurting... I Mean How Could! Huh.. When Imam Agha Khan Does Not Makes Any One Convert While Marrying [****2nd Section This Post] How Could His Followers Do, Not The Person But Whole Family.
Still More, Well Childs' Faith Questions... !
AnSwer Goes It Depends On To Them What To Choose. No Enforcements.
Still Her Father Wont Allow Huh..!! And She Says She Will marry Where Her Father Wud Want Her To..!!
guyx I LoVe Her AloT.. PLease Could 'Ne One Let Me Outa Despair..!!
I Cant Even Think For Spending My Whole LyF.. WidOut Her..!! Please...!! Help..!! Itx Ben A Month We Meet.. We Cry... Silent.. And Leave..! :@ We Have Broken Up Now... As There Aint Ne Future To This Relation..!!
I Wish That This desperation Wudnt End With A Suicide. Or Maybe Another Following.
Thanks!
But The Prob Preceding Is That SHe Is Ismaili And I Aint.
And According To Her We Cant Marry.. Rather Her Father Wont Allow Us Both To, AS A Matter Of Respect For Her Family In Society.
But AS Far As I Have ..Searched...!! Have Got Up To This..!!
In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?
AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.
..Agha..Khan..Said In Alppo, Syria..8 November 2001
Marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith.. Now that religion is out of the question, Different faiths no barrier to marriage...
But Still...!! WHY :@!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accoring to Quran a Muslim Can marry any in ahl-e-kitab [Cristians, Jews, Muslims.etc] Then If Ismailis are muslims, Why cant they marry a ahl-e-kitab.
and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....
****From Memoirs of Aga Khan
"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion"****
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.
In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.
Hope this clears the misunderstanding.
The Administrator of ISMAILI.NET
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity.... such people are not considered true followers of Agha Khan but in fact if u realize being a true follower of Agha Khan's teachings is not really a big issue but yeah if ur true to the teachings of Allah, i.e. Quran... then u wont be having any problems....
if Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then y not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriages
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is marrying in another place instead of Jamat-Khana is nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? You can even better marry for instance in church. At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
_________________________________________________________
Still Cannot We Marry, I Live In Pakistan Here Societies ARE Undeveloped She Says... And They Are Unaware..!! Thus Her Father Wont Allow.
We HAve Been In Love Since Long 3 Years...Now It Seems To Us Both Impossible Survive...
We Cannot Run Away We Both Love Our Parents More... Than Eachother...
If We Dont We Should.. Its A Child's Responsibility..!!
Also Neither Of Us Intends To Change Our Religions, Cause I Love My Lord More Than Her And She Does Hers Prehaps Its The Same One. But Still Comes The Family Respect In Society If We Change Our Religions.
I Respect Ismailiism, I Respect Every Of Their Aspects.. Infact I Spend Most Of My Time In Her Society.. I Have Many Of My Friends Who ARe Ismaili...!! And She Does Respect My Islam Beliefs.
And One More Thing I Agreed To Change My Sect.. When I Am Something On My Own Self, [A GENETIC ENGINEER] And Dont HAve To Look Forward To My Parents To Feed Me Up. But I Then Came To Know That Its Only Allowed When Whole Family Of Marrying Person Coverts.. Thats So Hurting... I Mean How Could! Huh.. When Imam Agha Khan Does Not Makes Any One Convert While Marrying [****2nd Section This Post] How Could His Followers Do, Not The Person But Whole Family.
Still More, Well Childs' Faith Questions... !
AnSwer Goes It Depends On To Them What To Choose. No Enforcements.
Still Her Father Wont Allow Huh..!! And She Says She Will marry Where Her Father Wud Want Her To..!!
guyx I LoVe Her AloT.. PLease Could 'Ne One Let Me Outa Despair..!!
I Cant Even Think For Spending My Whole LyF.. WidOut Her..!! Please...!! Help..!! Itx Ben A Month We Meet.. We Cry... Silent.. And Leave..! :@ We Have Broken Up Now... As There Aint Ne Future To This Relation..!!
I Wish That This desperation Wudnt End With A Suicide. Or Maybe Another Following.
Thanks!
For someone that is a genetic engineer, you seem to lack the basics of the english language!Anion.Xenon wrote:I Em In Love With A Girl Likeas See Also Is.
But The Prob Preceding Is That SHe Is Ismaili And I Aint.
And According To Her We Cant Marry.. Rather Her Father Wont Allow Us Both To, AS A Matter Of Respect For Her Family In Society.
But AS Far As I Have ..Searched...!! Have Got Up To This..!!
In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?
AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.
..Agha..Khan..Said In Alppo, Syria..8 November 2001
Marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith.. Now that religion is out of the question, Different faiths no barrier to marriage...
But Still...!! WHY :@!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Accoring to Quran a Muslim Can marry any in ahl-e-kitab [Cristians, Jews, Muslims.etc] Then If Ismailis are muslims, Why cant they marry a ahl-e-kitab.
and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....
****From Memoirs of Aga Khan
"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion"****
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.
In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.
Hope this clears the misunderstanding.
The Administrator of ISMAILI.NET
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity.... such people are not considered true followers of Agha Khan but in fact if u realize being a true follower of Agha Khan's teachings is not really a big issue but yeah if ur true to the teachings of Allah, i.e. Quran... then u wont be having any problems....
if Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then y not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriages
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is marrying in another place instead of Jamat-Khana is nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? You can even better marry for instance in church. At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
_________________________________________________________
Still Cannot We Marry, I Live In Pakistan Here Societies ARE Undeveloped She Says... And They Are Unaware..!! Thus Her Father Wont Allow.
We HAve Been In Love Since Long 3 Years...Now It Seems To Us Both Impossible Survive...
We Cannot Run Away We Both Love Our Parents More... Than Eachother...
If We Dont We Should.. Its A Child's Responsibility..!!
Also Neither Of Us Intends To Change Our Religions, Cause I Love My Lord More Than Her And She Does Hers Prehaps Its The Same One. But Still Comes The Family Respect In Society If We Change Our Religions.
I Respect Ismailiism, I Respect Every Of Their Aspects.. Infact I Spend Most Of My Time In Her Society.. I Have Many Of My Friends Who ARe Ismaili...!! And She Does Respect My Islam Beliefs.
And One More Thing I Agreed To Change My Sect.. When I Am Something On My Own Self, [A GENETIC ENGINEER] And Dont HAve To Look Forward To My Parents To Feed Me Up. But I Then Came To Know That Its Only Allowed When Whole Family Of Marrying Person Coverts.. Thats So Hurting... I Mean How Could! Huh.. When Imam Agha Khan Does Not Makes Any One Convert While Marrying [****2nd Section This Post] How Could His Followers Do, Not The Person But Whole Family.
Still More, Well Childs' Faith Questions... !
AnSwer Goes It Depends On To Them What To Choose. No Enforcements.
Still Her Father Wont Allow Huh..!! And She Says She Will marry Where Her Father Wud Want Her To..!!
guyx I LoVe Her AloT.. PLease Could 'Ne One Let Me Outa Despair..!!
I Cant Even Think For Spending My Whole LyF.. WidOut Her..!! Please...!! Help..!! Itx Ben A Month We Meet.. We Cry... Silent.. And Leave..! :@ We Have Broken Up Now... As There Aint Ne Future To This Relation..!!
I Wish That This desperation Wudnt End With A Suicide. Or Maybe Another Following.
Thanks!
Shams
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Anion.Xenon
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:46 am
Hmm
Maybe None Ov Yew Have Eva BeeN In Love..!!
N' Shams.. It Seems To Me Lyk.. Yew Lack A Bit Maybe Much Of Eng Comprehension Skills... Ive Stated Tht I WOULD Be A Genetist.. , Instead Ov What Yew Have Made To Yewr EyeBalls That "I AM"...!
Sorry Sis-PEACE!-
Da Other Chum..
There Are Many Fishes But Maybe Em In Love With Just Single Whox Ma Whole Pond, And When Yewr Pond Iz No More Could You Survive? And Dear It Aint Necessary Tht The Person Yew Decide To Be With Shud Be Perfect In All Aspects Yew Want Him/Her To, All It Depends On Is How Much Yewr Love Iz Perfect.
If Any Would Be Way Of LiL Help That'd Be Much Appreciable..!!
Anyway Thanks!
N' Shams.. It Seems To Me Lyk.. Yew Lack A Bit Maybe Much Of Eng Comprehension Skills... Ive Stated Tht I WOULD Be A Genetist.. , Instead Ov What Yew Have Made To Yewr EyeBalls That "I AM"...!
Sorry Sis-PEACE!-
Da Other Chum..
There Are Many Fishes But Maybe Em In Love With Just Single Whox Ma Whole Pond, And When Yewr Pond Iz No More Could You Survive? And Dear It Aint Necessary Tht The Person Yew Decide To Be With Shud Be Perfect In All Aspects Yew Want Him/Her To, All It Depends On Is How Much Yewr Love Iz Perfect.
If Any Would Be Way Of LiL Help That'd Be Much Appreciable..!!
Anyway Thanks!
Re: Hmm
Your essential problem is that you have terrible e-Handwriting and no one can understand your question.Anion.Xenon wrote:(a lot of illegible things
Try again. Use spellchecker. Don't capitalise all words. Use standard English, because some of us are not whatever (apparently some kind of British?) you are and don't understand your often phonetic spellings and highly idiosyncratic use of metaphor.
-
Anion.Xenon
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:46 am
Then I Am Much Sorry.. Well here is an standard english one.
I and ismaili girl both are in love.. we are of same ages.
and according to her and my other ismaili friends we cannot marry, as it is not allowed, also her father will not allow us both to marry, as it is a matter of respect in society.
but as far i have searched i have got this.
1)In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
2)
LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?
AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.
...........Agha..Khan..Said In Alppo, Syria..8 November 2001..........
Marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith.. Now that religion is out of the question, Different faiths no barrier to marriage...
But Still...!! why ismaili fathers dont allow their daughters especially to marry a non-ismaili...?
4)Accoring to Quran a Muslim Can marry any in ahl-e-kitab [Cristians, Jews, Muslims.etc] Then If Ismailis are muslims, Why cant they marry a ahl-e-kitab.
and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....
****From Memoirs of Aga Khan
"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion"****
5)You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.
In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.
The Administrator of ISMAILI.NET
.......!!............................................!
6)Marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity..... Why It Is So..!!?
Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then why not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriages
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)Why is marrying in another place instead of Jamat-Khana is nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? You can even better marry for instance in church. At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
....!! Still all of this above yew ismaili father dont allow.. huh!
we have been in love since long 3 years. [time doesnt even matter but intensity does]
We both dont want to run away from our society and relations and marry, because we love our parents more [if even not..we should]
and cannot change our religions. but i do respect ismailism and their beliefs, and she also does respect my traditional sunni islamic beliefs.
and one thing more at last i agreed to change my sect.. when i get into a profession, and dont have to look forward to my parents for money.
But then i came to know that the person who wants to marry an ismaili has to get his/her whole family converted ... i mean thats so sick.. when even your imam disallows that.
and the last remaining are offsprings faith questions.. so here i answer that they may choose waht they like to... no enforcements, but still if my girl wants.. they would be ismaili.. still cannot i.. huh!
please guys could any one tell me why these fathers dont allow.. and any way could i be able marrying her..?
i love her alot.. please could anyone let me out of this deperation.
all we have got are tears and nothing else, please help, i have got much less time, please, i love her soo soo much more.
and according to her and my other ismaili friends we cannot marry, as it is not allowed, also her father will not allow us both to marry, as it is a matter of respect in society.
but as far i have searched i have got this.
1)In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
2)
LBC: And is that why you have two weddings: The civil wedding and the religious wedding?
AK: No, no, no. That is a form, but in fact marriage is not sacred in Islam. It is a contract between a man and a woman.
...........Agha..Khan..Said In Alppo, Syria..8 November 2001..........
Marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith.. Now that religion is out of the question, Different faiths no barrier to marriage...
But Still...!! why ismaili fathers dont allow their daughters especially to marry a non-ismaili...?
4)Accoring to Quran a Muslim Can marry any in ahl-e-kitab [Cristians, Jews, Muslims.etc] Then If Ismailis are muslims, Why cant they marry a ahl-e-kitab.
and even if Hazrat Ali was appointed by Hazrat Muhammad (p.b.u.h), it was only to guide the people by giving reference from the Quran...! not to change it! no one had the authority to change Quran not even Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....
****From Memoirs of Aga Khan
"As a good muslim I have never asked a christian to change her religion in order to marry Me, for the Islamic belief is that christians and jews and according to some tenets, zoroastrians and reformed hindu unitarians may marry muslims and retain their own religion"****
5)You can marry an Ismaili regardless of what religion you are from. You can keep your faith and marry and Ismaili, but of course if you believe in your heart that you want to become Ismaili you can convert.
In Islam marriage is not a religious act as fr example in Christianity, it is a social contract. Therefore an Ismaili can marry outside his religion, even to non-Muslim.
The Administrator of ISMAILI.NET
.......!!............................................!
6)Marrying out of Ismaili community is considered as disgrace to the community.... ppl rebel against the person who has any interest outside the community in some other comunity..... Why It Is So..!!?
Princess Zahrah (pRince Karim's daighter) can get married to a practicing christian, then why not an 'ordinary' Ismaili? no Ismaili has got the guts to raise this issue... Y? becoz ur not allowed to talk against the heritage, but follow the excuses that are laid down in case of any failure on part of ur leader.... he is a human being like all of us, nuthing special, he fails too...
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriages
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7)Why is marrying in another place instead of Jamat-Khana is nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? You can even better marry for instance in church. At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
....!! Still all of this above yew ismaili father dont allow.. huh!
we have been in love since long 3 years. [time doesnt even matter but intensity does]
We both dont want to run away from our society and relations and marry, because we love our parents more [if even not..we should]
and cannot change our religions. but i do respect ismailism and their beliefs, and she also does respect my traditional sunni islamic beliefs.
and one thing more at last i agreed to change my sect.. when i get into a profession, and dont have to look forward to my parents for money.
But then i came to know that the person who wants to marry an ismaili has to get his/her whole family converted ... i mean thats so sick.. when even your imam disallows that.
and the last remaining are offsprings faith questions.. so here i answer that they may choose waht they like to... no enforcements, but still if my girl wants.. they would be ismaili.. still cannot i.. huh!
please guys could any one tell me why these fathers dont allow.. and any way could i be able marrying her..?
i love her alot.. please could anyone let me out of this deperation.
all we have got are tears and nothing else, please help, i have got much less time, please, i love her soo soo much more.
-
Anion.Xenon
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:46 am
Thanks Guys I Now Need No Replies, Everything is Over, She is Happy With Her New Boyfriend..And I Too Am Happy If She Is...
But Cant Live This Way :@ Maybe This Is My Last Msg So Let Me Tell You Guys.. She Told Me To Live Happily And She Wont Now Ever Be With Me Nor Will Ever Talk.. And Its All Over.
I Have Not Eaten Anything Or Drunk A Drop, Its 4th day, I Feel So Week And Like At Death's Door, Closing My Eyes Forever And Wasted Away.
P.S: Never Love.
Byez
But Cant Live This Way :@ Maybe This Is My Last Msg So Let Me Tell You Guys.. She Told Me To Live Happily And She Wont Now Ever Be With Me Nor Will Ever Talk.. And Its All Over.
I Have Not Eaten Anything Or Drunk A Drop, Its 4th day, I Feel So Week And Like At Death's Door, Closing My Eyes Forever And Wasted Away.
P.S: Never Love.
Byez