Ya Ali Madad,
What is the Difference among the souls of Allah, Prophet, Imam and a common murid?.
Please reply only if you have good knowledge over this topic otherwise it would misguide me and as well as fellows in this forum.
Differenciation of Soul
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zubair_mahamood
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YAM!<BR><BR>True, Allah is not a soul but He is The Soul, i.e. the Origin of everything. Before creating anything, He separated the soul of Prophet Muhammed (swt) from Himself and took o­n the dual nature of Allah/Ali, Allah being hidden and Ali (swt) being manifest, but please do not be mistaken that He is duality... He is still Unity since everything has originated and will return to Him. There is a hadith of the Prophet that the souls of all the Prophets before him had His noor/soul. Thus, the soul of Allah, Ali and Muhammed are o­ne. As per ISMS's farman, just like our flesh is a result of our parents, our souls a result of the Noor of the Imam. In another speech, ISMS has stated that we live and breath within the being of Allah. From this, you can deduce that our souls are not really separated from Allah. It is through bandagi, either in this world or the spiritual world, that we "truly" realize that our souls are from Allah and attain the state of fanafillah, union with the Universal Soul, or asal mein waasil, or whatever you want to call it. Our souls have to be pure from sins before attaining this state.<BR><BR>This is my understanding from reading ginans, farmans and listening to various waaz. It is not my intention to mislead anyone but this is how I practice my faith. I will wait for responses from others to see if they agree with me.
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nowroozalisabiti
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Ya Ali Maddad !
In Ismailism, Allah is neither Existent nor non-existence. He is not Mawjood (Present) nor Na-mawjood (absent). He is neither finite nor non-finite.
When we say Allah exists, we claim that we overcome on Allah. We can say the Nature is exists, because we can see it. Or, for example, we say this is an egg. We can see the egg. If we claim that Allah doesn’t exist, then, who has created the Universe?
Existence and Non-existence depend on the Nature and Creatures (Both physical and spiritual creatures). Therefore, Allah Almighty's dignity is so high than the creature which are existed or non-existed.
Allah is not a Soul. Soul depends to the Spirit and Allah is the Creator of Soul. The first thing that Allah created was Aql (Intellect) without any mediation. Then, Nafs( Soul) was created by the mediation of Aql. Then, the Soul has created the Nature.
In Ismaili concept we say those first creature Aql-e-Kul( Universal Intellect) and Nafs-e-Kul( Universal Soul).
Our intellects and Souls are the components of Universal intellect and universal Soul. When our souls separates our bodies it will join to the Universal Soul. Not to Allah.
If you want further Information, please read the Kashf-al-Mahjoob(book) Al-Sijistani or Waj-e-Deen of Naser-e-Khusraw
In Ismailism, Allah is neither Existent nor non-existence. He is not Mawjood (Present) nor Na-mawjood (absent). He is neither finite nor non-finite.
When we say Allah exists, we claim that we overcome on Allah. We can say the Nature is exists, because we can see it. Or, for example, we say this is an egg. We can see the egg. If we claim that Allah doesn’t exist, then, who has created the Universe?
Existence and Non-existence depend on the Nature and Creatures (Both physical and spiritual creatures). Therefore, Allah Almighty's dignity is so high than the creature which are existed or non-existed.
Allah is not a Soul. Soul depends to the Spirit and Allah is the Creator of Soul. The first thing that Allah created was Aql (Intellect) without any mediation. Then, Nafs( Soul) was created by the mediation of Aql. Then, the Soul has created the Nature.
In Ismaili concept we say those first creature Aql-e-Kul( Universal Intellect) and Nafs-e-Kul( Universal Soul).
Our intellects and Souls are the components of Universal intellect and universal Soul. When our souls separates our bodies it will join to the Universal Soul. Not to Allah.
If you want further Information, please read the Kashf-al-Mahjoob(book) Al-Sijistani or Waj-e-Deen of Naser-e-Khusraw
nowroozalisabiti wrote:Ya Ali Maddad !
In Ismailism, Allah is neither Existent nor non-existence. He is not Mawjood (Present) nor Na-mawjood (absent). He is neither finite nor non-finite.
When we say Allah exists, we claim that we overcome on Allah. We can say the Nature is exists, because we can see it. Or, for example, we say this is an egg. We can see the egg. If we claim that Allah doesn’t exist, then, who has created the Universe?
Existence and Non-existence depend on the Nature and Creatures (Both physical and spiritual creatures). Therefore, Allah Almighty's dignity is so high than the creature which are existed or non-existed.
Allah is not a Soul. Soul depends to the Spirit and Allah is the Creator of Soul. The first thing that Allah created was Aql (Intellect) without any mediation. Then, Nafs( Soul) was created by the mediation of Aql. Then, the Soul has created the Nature.
In Ismaili concept we say those first creature Aql-e-Kul( Universal Intellect) and Nafs-e-Kul( Universal Soul).
Our intellects and Souls are the components of Universal intellect and universal Soul. When our souls separates our bodies it will join to the Universal Soul. Not to Allah.
If you want further Information, please read the Kashf-al-Mahjoob(book) Al-Sijistani or Waj-e-Deen of Naser-e-Khusraw
I thought that the Universal Soul and Allah were one and all. Both ISMS and MHI have said countless times in their farmans that they possess the Noor of Allah. I don't make any distinction between the Noor of Allah and Allah Himself because in Surah Noor, Allah has referred to Himself as Light/Noor. And thus the Noor that is in the Imam is indeed Allah Himself. MHI has said in his farman that the soul of a true mureed becomes one with the Noor of Hazrat Ali. From this we can clearly deduce that when we attain the state of fanafillah, it is the actual union with Allah Himself and not some dual being called the Universal Soul.
You have referenced Abu Yaqub Al Sijistani and Nasir Khusraw. They were indeed very learned men and have made great contributions to the Ismaili tariqa. Without any disrespect to them, they did not belong to the actual lineage of Pirs starting from Prophet Mohammed. This lineage included Pir Shams, Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen to name a few. And thus the level of comprehension of the true nature of Ismailism can only be attained by the latter rather than the former. And as per our ginans written by these very Pirs, Ali and Allah are one.
Another example to prove my point. ISMS has given a great tribute to Mansur Al Hallaj who declared "An Al-Haq" (I am the Truth). Obviously, he attained the status of fanafillah or in our jamati language, asal mein waasil. ISMS has even gone as far as saying that we should try to become like Mansur. Now, the only entity that has the right to declare He is the Truth is Allah himself. And thus, Mansur had to attain union with Allah Himself in order to be able to make such a bold declaration. Allah can also be referred to as the Universal Soul but to say that they are two separate entities is incorrect, IMHO.
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aminamirali
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I think the explanation I have given you earlier is the best you'll get out of anyone on this forum, worded in different ways. To gain further insight on such a deep subject matter, you'll have to reach higher levels of Maarifat and that can only be attained through Bandagi. And I am sure, at the end, you will realize that, "Whatever is, is Ali", in other words, nothing else really exists except for the Divine Unity/Allah/Ali. I believe this quote is someone's signature on here and was said by one of our previous Imams.aminamirali wrote:Really I am still not able to differenciate among these.. Can you please please explain this in a concise way..please...thank you very much.
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zubair_mahamood
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Ya Ali Madaad,
As I said before Allah is not a Soul…. Allah can’t be defined but can be symbolically explained…. Allah is Creator… Allah has created everything from himself….. Allah created earth, sky and what is between them… Allah solely owns earth, sky and what is between them, what is seen or hidden. Allah created Human’s among those are Prophets, Imams, believers and disbelievers…. Prophets and Imams interpreter faith to believers…. In simple words! Allah communicates with His creation via Prophet or Imam… Allah is Everything at the same time if someone doesn’t understand Allah is Nothing!
Everyone has individual perception depending on their belief which is based on experience and learning…. most of u may have different perception…. Aminamirali I didn’t understand your question first because Allah is not a soul and also I don’t understand what you mean by a common Murid… but if u ask me I would say there is not difference between souls of Prophets, Imams or True Mumin (let me explain).
About souls! Everything which is created has soul. Like every object which you see or do not see have a soul, which has a purpose be hide its creation and has a unique property…. When I say everything I mean everything like Sun, moon, stars, soil, water sky, fire, ash everything … everything has it own unique properties hence they behave according to them…..
Prophets, Imams, Believers and disbelievers have a Soul… Prophets and Imams don’t have will of their own, they are directly connected to Allah (that’s a rahmat on them by Allah) and their souls are pure…
A Murid is impure, he is follower of Prophet or Imam to gain knowledge of his creator (Allah) to attain Purity then looks for salvations…. He feels secure in the guidance of prophet or Imam…. Murid is indirectly connected to Allah through Prophets or Imams…. I don’t know what do u mean by common Murid but a Murid with his dedication towards Prophet or Imam reaches a state of purity (true Mumin) or one can say by following prophet or Imam reaches a state of Purity… The way Prophets and Imams directly Follow Allah’s instructions similarly Mumin follow direct instruction of Prophet or Imam of time and attain purity but is always indirectly connected to Allah. One can ask both Murid and Mumin are indirectly connected to Allah then what’s difference? Well the difference is in there state of Faith, Murid is a follower of Imam or Prophet and Mumin follow Prophet or Imam…. Hence Prophets, Imams, Mumin souls are not same but they attain the quality or true guidance of Allah which makes their souls equal.
For Example…..
Let say Allah is A, Prophet or Imam is B and Mumin be C, if we say A=B, by following B C becomes B…. Which is like A=B=C but these three letters are different….
A disbeliever is a one who doesn’t believe in his creator, he has got nothing to do with Prophet or Imam (this statement of mine may hurt many Ismailies cause u may ask how can a person who doesnt follow Prophet or Imam be a believer but I can explain my point if anyone wants)… His thinking that He is incharge of everything makes his soul impure….
Hope I m not misguiding you…. if you have any queries regarding my posting please ask I will explain inshallah….
Ya Ali Madaad
As I said before Allah is not a Soul…. Allah can’t be defined but can be symbolically explained…. Allah is Creator… Allah has created everything from himself….. Allah created earth, sky and what is between them… Allah solely owns earth, sky and what is between them, what is seen or hidden. Allah created Human’s among those are Prophets, Imams, believers and disbelievers…. Prophets and Imams interpreter faith to believers…. In simple words! Allah communicates with His creation via Prophet or Imam… Allah is Everything at the same time if someone doesn’t understand Allah is Nothing!
Everyone has individual perception depending on their belief which is based on experience and learning…. most of u may have different perception…. Aminamirali I didn’t understand your question first because Allah is not a soul and also I don’t understand what you mean by a common Murid… but if u ask me I would say there is not difference between souls of Prophets, Imams or True Mumin (let me explain).
About souls! Everything which is created has soul. Like every object which you see or do not see have a soul, which has a purpose be hide its creation and has a unique property…. When I say everything I mean everything like Sun, moon, stars, soil, water sky, fire, ash everything … everything has it own unique properties hence they behave according to them…..
Prophets, Imams, Believers and disbelievers have a Soul… Prophets and Imams don’t have will of their own, they are directly connected to Allah (that’s a rahmat on them by Allah) and their souls are pure…
A Murid is impure, he is follower of Prophet or Imam to gain knowledge of his creator (Allah) to attain Purity then looks for salvations…. He feels secure in the guidance of prophet or Imam…. Murid is indirectly connected to Allah through Prophets or Imams…. I don’t know what do u mean by common Murid but a Murid with his dedication towards Prophet or Imam reaches a state of purity (true Mumin) or one can say by following prophet or Imam reaches a state of Purity… The way Prophets and Imams directly Follow Allah’s instructions similarly Mumin follow direct instruction of Prophet or Imam of time and attain purity but is always indirectly connected to Allah. One can ask both Murid and Mumin are indirectly connected to Allah then what’s difference? Well the difference is in there state of Faith, Murid is a follower of Imam or Prophet and Mumin follow Prophet or Imam…. Hence Prophets, Imams, Mumin souls are not same but they attain the quality or true guidance of Allah which makes their souls equal.
For Example…..
Let say Allah is A, Prophet or Imam is B and Mumin be C, if we say A=B, by following B C becomes B…. Which is like A=B=C but these three letters are different….
A disbeliever is a one who doesn’t believe in his creator, he has got nothing to do with Prophet or Imam (this statement of mine may hurt many Ismailies cause u may ask how can a person who doesnt follow Prophet or Imam be a believer but I can explain my point if anyone wants)… His thinking that He is incharge of everything makes his soul impure….
Hope I m not misguiding you…. if you have any queries regarding my posting please ask I will explain inshallah….
Ya Ali Madaad
zubair_mahamood wrote:Ya Ali Madaad,
As I said before Allah is not a Soul…. Allah can’t be defined but can be symbolically explained…. Allah is Creator… Allah has created everything from himself….. Allah created earth, sky and what is between them… Allah solely owns earth, sky and what is between them, what is seen or hidden. Allah created Human’s among those are Prophets, Imams, believers and disbelievers…. Prophets and Imams interpreter faith to believers…. In simple words! Allah communicates with His creation via Prophet or Imam… Allah is Everything at the same time if someone doesn’t understand Allah is Nothing!
Everyone has individual perception depending on their belief which is based on experience and learning…. most of u may have different perception…. Aminamirali I didn’t understand your question first because Allah is not a soul and also I don’t understand what you mean by a common Murid… but if u ask me I would say there is not difference between souls of Prophets, Imams or True Mumin (let me explain).
About souls! Everything which is created has soul. Like every object which you see or do not see have a soul, which has a purpose be hide its creation and has a unique property…. When I say everything I mean everything like Sun, moon, stars, soil, water sky, fire, ash everything … everything has it own unique properties hence they behave according to them…..
Prophets, Imams, Believers and disbelievers have a Soul… Prophets and Imams don’t have will of their own, they are directly connected to Allah (that’s a rahmat on them by Allah) and their souls are pure…
A Murid is impure, he is follower of Prophet or Imam to gain knowledge of his creator (Allah) to attain Purity then looks for salvations…. He feels secure in the guidance of prophet or Imam…. Murid is indirectly connected to Allah through Prophets or Imams…. I don’t know what do u mean by common Murid but a Murid with his dedication towards Prophet or Imam reaches a state of purity (true Mumin) or one can say by following prophet or Imam reaches a state of Purity… The way Prophets and Imams directly Follow Allah’s instructions similarly Mumin follow direct instruction of Prophet or Imam of time and attain purity but is always indirectly connected to Allah. One can ask both Murid and Mumin are indirectly connected to Allah then what’s difference? Well the difference is in there state of Faith, Murid is a follower of Imam or Prophet and Mumin follow Prophet or Imam…. Hence Prophets, Imams, Mumin souls are not same but they attain the quality or true guidance of Allah which makes their souls equal.
For Example…..
Let say Allah is A, Prophet or Imam is B and Mumin be C, if we say A=B, by following B C becomes B…. Which is like A=B=C but these three letters are different….
A disbeliever is a one who doesn’t believe in his creator, he has got nothing to do with Prophet or Imam (this statement of mine may hurt many Ismailies cause u may ask how can a person who doesnt follow Prophet or Imam be a believer but I can explain my point if anyone wants)… His thinking that He is incharge of everything makes his soul impure….
Hope I m not misguiding you…. if you have any queries regarding my posting please ask I will explain inshallah….
Ya Ali Madaad
Zubair,
Ya Ali Madad,
I think you're mixing what is defined as JEEV (LIFEFORCE) and SOUL ( RUH).
Shams
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zubair_mahamood
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Ya Ali Madaad shams,
Yes because it’s never separate, can you tell that there was no Imam since mankind was created or before it ever existed….. To get salvation a ruh must come to life….
If you want to answer aminamirali please.... I am open to listen to your point of view on this…. I am ready to change my opinion if your explanation is acceptable….
Zubair Mahamood
Yes because it’s never separate, can you tell that there was no Imam since mankind was created or before it ever existed….. To get salvation a ruh must come to life….
If you want to answer aminamirali please.... I am open to listen to your point of view on this…. I am ready to change my opinion if your explanation is acceptable….
Zubair Mahamood
First of all, according to Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his memoir, Islam is a monorealism as opposed to monotheism. This means that Allah is not just out there separate from the creation but is also intimately connected to creation. This implies that there are three metaphysical principles; one- Allah the Essence who is uncreated, unknowable and beyond description or conception, two - Allah the Universal Intellect or the Noor and three - Allah the creation or the Universal Soul. The following is the elaboration and what it means in terms of the status of the Imam, the Pir and the individual soul.
In one of the Farman's MHI has said "the soul is created and given a physical form", This means that the soul is the created aspect. The creation is the Universal Soul. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says in his memoir "Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe".
According to the Memoirs, every particle has a soul and human beings are the highest forms: "Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us".
The creation is continuously created and sustained through the Universal Intellect - the Noor as stated by MSMS in his memoir "The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will". The Noor is His will and His thought.
Peer Sadardeen in a verse of Saloko Nano says:
satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10
The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).
In our tradition, the Imam is the Mazhar of the Essence, the Pir is the Mazhar of the Noor and creation is the mazhar of the Universal Soul. At present the Imam is both the Pir and the Imam, hence he is the bearer of the Noor as well as the Essence. Prophet Muhammad is the first manifest Peer in our tradition.
The following verses taken from the Ginan "Sab Ghat Sami Maro Bharpur Bethhaa" further elaborate on the notions of Imamat and Piratan.
ejee dhartee nahotee aasamaan na hotaa
tees deen tu(n) ek ilaahee ek jeeyo.........................18
O momins: When there was neither the earth nor the heavens,
the Lord was the only principle that existed on that day.
[This refers to God as the Essence beyond creation - the Imam being the mazhar]
ejee tisdeen peer saaheb jee ke paase
tame sunno maaraa moman bhaai jee ek jeeyo..................19
O momins: On that day the Peer was with the Lord (Imaam).
O my momins listen to this truth.
[The Pir - the mazhar of the Noor was with the Imam]
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
[This verse is an elaboration of the previous one - that Nabi is the bearer of the Noor]
ejee gurnar kero paar na jaannu
je peerne parsaade moman deetthaa ek jeeyo..................21
O momins: I know no bounds of the 'gurnar'
(Peer and Shaah= HaazarImaam), of whom the momins have
been blessed to recognise through the Peers.
[GurNar means Gur (Pir) and Nar (Imam). The Imam at all times is both the bearer of the Essence and the Noor. At times however he delegates the role of the Pir to another person from Ahl-i-Bayt and hence we can have a person who is the Pir (as Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen).]
In one of the Farman's MHI has said "the soul is created and given a physical form", This means that the soul is the created aspect. The creation is the Universal Soul. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah says in his memoir "Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe".
According to the Memoirs, every particle has a soul and human beings are the highest forms: "Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us".
The creation is continuously created and sustained through the Universal Intellect - the Noor as stated by MSMS in his memoir "The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will". The Noor is His will and His thought.
Peer Sadardeen in a verse of Saloko Nano says:
satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10
The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).
In our tradition, the Imam is the Mazhar of the Essence, the Pir is the Mazhar of the Noor and creation is the mazhar of the Universal Soul. At present the Imam is both the Pir and the Imam, hence he is the bearer of the Noor as well as the Essence. Prophet Muhammad is the first manifest Peer in our tradition.
The following verses taken from the Ginan "Sab Ghat Sami Maro Bharpur Bethhaa" further elaborate on the notions of Imamat and Piratan.
ejee dhartee nahotee aasamaan na hotaa
tees deen tu(n) ek ilaahee ek jeeyo.........................18
O momins: When there was neither the earth nor the heavens,
the Lord was the only principle that existed on that day.
[This refers to God as the Essence beyond creation - the Imam being the mazhar]
ejee tisdeen peer saaheb jee ke paase
tame sunno maaraa moman bhaai jee ek jeeyo..................19
O momins: On that day the Peer was with the Lord (Imaam).
O my momins listen to this truth.
[The Pir - the mazhar of the Noor was with the Imam]
ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
[This verse is an elaboration of the previous one - that Nabi is the bearer of the Noor]
ejee gurnar kero paar na jaannu
je peerne parsaade moman deetthaa ek jeeyo..................21
O momins: I know no bounds of the 'gurnar'
(Peer and Shaah= HaazarImaam), of whom the momins have
been blessed to recognise through the Peers.
[GurNar means Gur (Pir) and Nar (Imam). The Imam at all times is both the bearer of the Essence and the Noor. At times however he delegates the role of the Pir to another person from Ahl-i-Bayt and hence we can have a person who is the Pir (as Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen).]
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zubair_mahamood
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Ya Ali Madaad kmaherali,
Thanks for your explanation
I m learning things…. I read this first time but I always had a strong feeling it’s the same Noor taking my experience as example that’s y I defend every faith and say God is one… Then why do I find people (Ismailies opposing Sunnis as I was same Noor which thought them sharia… don’t tell me they don’t…. comparing practices or concepts means comparing Present Noor teaching with previous teaching which mean comparing Hazar Imam) what do you think….
And one more thing you are making Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen stand in same line… well I don’t have problem with that! I have knowledge about Prophet Muhammad teaching can you help me with Pir Sadardeen teachings….
Thanks
Zubair Mahamood
Thanks for your explanation
kmaherali wrote: ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20
O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.
[This verse is an elaboration of the previous one - that Nabi is the bearer of the Noor]
ejee gurnar kero paar na jaannu
je peerne parsaade moman deetthaa ek jeeyo..................21
O momins: I know no bounds of the 'gurnar'
(Peer and Shaah= HaazarImaam), of whom the momins have
been blessed to recognise through the Peers.
[GurNar means Gur (Pir) and Nar (Imam). The Imam at all times is both the bearer of the Essence and the Noor. At times however he delegates the role of the Pir to another person from Ahl-i-Bayt and hence we can have a person who is the Pir (as Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen).]
I m learning things…. I read this first time but I always had a strong feeling it’s the same Noor taking my experience as example that’s y I defend every faith and say God is one… Then why do I find people (Ismailies opposing Sunnis as I was same Noor which thought them sharia… don’t tell me they don’t…. comparing practices or concepts means comparing Present Noor teaching with previous teaching which mean comparing Hazar Imam) what do you think….
And one more thing you are making Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen stand in same line… well I don’t have problem with that! I have knowledge about Prophet Muhammad teaching can you help me with Pir Sadardeen teachings….
Thanks
Zubair Mahamood
Last edited by zubair_mahamood on Sun May 27, 2007 4:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
<BR><BR>YAM Zubair,<BR><BR>Prophet Muhammed is considered the first Pir, Hazrat Hasan the second and presently, Hazar Imam is the Pir of the time as well as the Imam. Pir Shams, Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen are from this same lineage of Pirs. As you know from our holy dua, the Imam is considered the Hujjat (proof) of Allah. Similarly, the Pir is considered the Hujjat of Imam. The Imam is recognized through the Pir, as all of very well know the event of Gadir-e-khum. Even in our ginans, Pir says "Nabi Muhammed bujo bhai to tame paamo Imam" (Seek the Prophet and then you will find the Imam). Just my two cents.zubair_mahamood wrote:<BR><BR>And o­ne more thing you are making Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen stand in same line… well I don’t have problem with that! I have knowledge about Prophet Muhammad teaching can you help me with Pir Sadardeen teachings…. <BR><BR>Thanks <BR>Zubair Mahamood
Zubair,zubair_mahamood wrote:Ya Ali Madaad shams,
Yes because it’s never separate, can you tell that there was no Imam since mankind was created or before it ever existed….. To get salvation a ruh must come to life….
If you want to answer aminamirali please.... I am open to listen to your point of view on this…. I am ready to change my opinion if your explanation is acceptable….
Zubair Mahamood
Email me in private and I will be glad to share with you. This forum isn't the correct place to have a discussion on Soul and Lifeforce.
Thanks
Shams
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zubair_mahamood
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Mowla Ali Madaad searcher,
I use to follow Prophet Muhammad… I follow Hazar Imam today…. Prophet Muhammad that’s 1400++ years back and today Hazar Imam, its like taking promotion so I have gap of 1400 years…. I accept Hazar Imam not because I read about Gadir-e-Khum and other events that Hazarat Ali was declared successor after Prophet Muhammad but because I have seen reality, I got faith in Hazar Imam after seeing him, after listening to him, after meeting him (that was just for a second) which made me accept him unconditionally… in the beginning I didn’t accept Hazarat Ali but I accepted Hazar Imam today I not only accept Imam Ali as Prophet successor but also that Ali is reality, Ali is Allah… I have come long way in accepting concepts as they came to me but I lack knowledge cause I don’t share same back ground like others because of my promotion, it doesn’t mean I don’t have faith in Imam as Allah…. if u can help me with information of teaching of Pirs I would be kind, I started to learn Ginans but I stopped as I don’t know Gujarathi and I may misunderstand them or even if I understand I may take long time…
Ya Ali Madaad shams,
My experience is also different about this topic, it was difficult for me to put things in place but I mixed lifeforce and Soul to answer…. My email id is [email protected], I am busy for next two weeks but I would like to learn if you can share….
And Thanks shams I was expecting some hard words from you, I think we both have learn something from our last conversation…
Have a nice day
Zubair Mahamood
I use to follow Prophet Muhammad… I follow Hazar Imam today…. Prophet Muhammad that’s 1400++ years back and today Hazar Imam, its like taking promotion so I have gap of 1400 years…. I accept Hazar Imam not because I read about Gadir-e-Khum and other events that Hazarat Ali was declared successor after Prophet Muhammad but because I have seen reality, I got faith in Hazar Imam after seeing him, after listening to him, after meeting him (that was just for a second) which made me accept him unconditionally… in the beginning I didn’t accept Hazarat Ali but I accepted Hazar Imam today I not only accept Imam Ali as Prophet successor but also that Ali is reality, Ali is Allah… I have come long way in accepting concepts as they came to me but I lack knowledge cause I don’t share same back ground like others because of my promotion, it doesn’t mean I don’t have faith in Imam as Allah…. if u can help me with information of teaching of Pirs I would be kind, I started to learn Ginans but I stopped as I don’t know Gujarathi and I may misunderstand them or even if I understand I may take long time…
Ya Ali Madaad shams,
My experience is also different about this topic, it was difficult for me to put things in place but I mixed lifeforce and Soul to answer…. My email id is [email protected], I am busy for next two weeks but I would like to learn if you can share….
And Thanks shams I was expecting some hard words from you, I think we both have learn something from our last conversation…
Have a nice day
Zubair Mahamood
-
nowroozalisabiti
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:29 am
- Location: Afghanistan
Ya Ali Madad,
There four kinds of souls exist in the Universe:
1 - Ruh Nabati (Planty Soul)
2 - Ruh Haiwani (Zoo or Beast Soul)
3- Ruh Insani (Human Beings Soul)
4 - Ruh Qudsi (Pure Soul).
Human Beings has these 4 souls. For example, a child has a plant soul who grows like plant, and feeds through its naval like plant through its roots.
When he/she gets older like animal he/she just know how to eat, drink and....
When he promoted he/she began to think who I am. For which purpose I have been created me. What is the end of my life? So, Animal doesn't think of these kinds of Question. Only the Human Beings his/her Soul has promoted from Ruh Nabati to Ruh Haiwani up to Ruh Insani.
Ruh Qadsi, in every era a person (just a person) has this kind of Ruh. And that Person was Prophet in his era, His Was (Successor) in his era and Imam of the Time has that Ruh in every era.
Prophets, Succesors and Imams have pure Arwah(Souls). Their Ruh is Complete. They don't need to complete thier Ruh. They are individuals among the Human Beings.
It is the duty of the others to promote and complete their souls from Plant Level to Animal Level and from the Animal level to Insani Level. And that is the last one that the Common people soul's development.
So, this is the respond to aminamirali question asking what the difference is between common souls and the Souls of the prophets and Imams. But Allah is not a soul. HE is creator of the Soul as I mentioned earlier.
There four kinds of souls exist in the Universe:
1 - Ruh Nabati (Planty Soul)
2 - Ruh Haiwani (Zoo or Beast Soul)
3- Ruh Insani (Human Beings Soul)
4 - Ruh Qudsi (Pure Soul).
Human Beings has these 4 souls. For example, a child has a plant soul who grows like plant, and feeds through its naval like plant through its roots.
When he/she gets older like animal he/she just know how to eat, drink and....
When he promoted he/she began to think who I am. For which purpose I have been created me. What is the end of my life? So, Animal doesn't think of these kinds of Question. Only the Human Beings his/her Soul has promoted from Ruh Nabati to Ruh Haiwani up to Ruh Insani.
Ruh Qadsi, in every era a person (just a person) has this kind of Ruh. And that Person was Prophet in his era, His Was (Successor) in his era and Imam of the Time has that Ruh in every era.
Prophets, Succesors and Imams have pure Arwah(Souls). Their Ruh is Complete. They don't need to complete thier Ruh. They are individuals among the Human Beings.
It is the duty of the others to promote and complete their souls from Plant Level to Animal Level and from the Animal level to Insani Level. And that is the last one that the Common people soul's development.
So, this is the respond to aminamirali question asking what the difference is between common souls and the Souls of the prophets and Imams. But Allah is not a soul. HE is creator of the Soul as I mentioned earlier.
YAM Zubair,
You have made great strides in learning about our faith and I just want to congratulate you because you have understood the essense of our faith, "Ali is Allah". There is a farman of Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah that for the first few months of an infant's life, regardless of the faith in which the birth has taken place, he/she experiences the deedar of Ali all the time. The Holy Quran also alludes to this idea in that everyone is born a Muslim. You have been given the greatest gift that a human being can ever get, recognition of the Imam of the time because without this recognition, the soul can't be released from the cycle of re-birth.
As I am no scholar and my understanding of Gujrati is rather limited, I think you would be better off learning about the teachings of our Pirs by reading the translations of ginans yourself. This is how I learned myself and by listening to a lot of waaz. Here is the link to a list of ginans with translations:
http://www.ismaili.net/ginanbycategory.html
There is a farman of MSMS that ginans are the essense of the Holy Quran so please approach them as such when you read them.
You have made great strides in learning about our faith and I just want to congratulate you because you have understood the essense of our faith, "Ali is Allah". There is a farman of Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah that for the first few months of an infant's life, regardless of the faith in which the birth has taken place, he/she experiences the deedar of Ali all the time. The Holy Quran also alludes to this idea in that everyone is born a Muslim. You have been given the greatest gift that a human being can ever get, recognition of the Imam of the time because without this recognition, the soul can't be released from the cycle of re-birth.
As I am no scholar and my understanding of Gujrati is rather limited, I think you would be better off learning about the teachings of our Pirs by reading the translations of ginans yourself. This is how I learned myself and by listening to a lot of waaz. Here is the link to a list of ginans with translations:
http://www.ismaili.net/ginanbycategory.html
There is a farman of MSMS that ginans are the essense of the Holy Quran so please approach them as such when you read them.
YAM Zubair,zubair_mahamood wrote:
I m learning things…. I read this first time but I always had a strong feeling it’s the same Noor taking my experience as example that’s y I defend every faith and say God is one… Then why do I find people (Ismailies opposing Sunnis as I was same Noor which thought them sharia… don’t tell me they don’t…. comparing practices or concepts means comparing Present Noor teaching with previous teaching which mean comparing Hazar Imam) what do you think….
And one more thing you are making Prophet Muhammad and Pir Sadardeen stand in same line… well I don’t have problem with that! I have knowledge about Prophet Muhammad teaching can you help me with Pir Sadardeen teachings….
Thanks
Zubair Mahamood
Yes, essentially there has been only one Noor since the beginning. This Noor has assumed many expressions over time. MHI is the present bearer
of the Noor.
In our tradition there are two principle offices; the office of Imam (Imam Mustaqarr) and the office of Piratan (Imam Mustawda). As I mentioned earlier, at present the Imam is the holder of both positions. But at times in our history, there were periods when the Imam appointed a member of the Ahl-i-Bayt (progeny of the Prophet) to function as the Pir.
Please refer to the artcle at: http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html for more insight and understanding of the Shah and Pir.
Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir. For more on Pir Sadardeen, please refer to the article at: http://www.ismaili.net/hero/hero23.html
The complete genealogy of the Pirs is given at: http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html
There has also been discussion on this subject in this forum under:
Doctrines --> Pir amd Prophet
If you have further questions after going through the above, please ask.
Karim
-
zubair_mahamood
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:12 pm
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madaad,
Today is very special day for me! I thank Allah for giving me this day where I m blessed Faith...
The links you gave me have useful information, but you didn’t answer my question with golden jubilee around I want my spiritual brothers and sisters to understand Allah is One! You have made a lot of contribution on all aspect of life and faith but why didn’t you start a Topic on "Pluralism".
I don’t have access to farmans yet but my experience with Imam are like Farmans to me which makes me believe I was born Ismaili! I was always Ismaili and will be inshallah… When I meet Hazar Imam last year I had a question in my heart I wanted to ask him but my tongue wasn’t helping my heart as my eyes didn’t want to blink He answered me! Well my heart was not satisfied with his answer, It wanted to ask another question He said “Don’t worry Zubair I am with you as I was with you” My heart was still not convinced about his reply! My tongue didn’t dare to ask anything, my eyes still didn’t want to blink and I didn’t want to let this movement pass… Then He said “I was with you when you didn’t know yourself….. (He reminded me of two occasions of my life which I had forgotten myself, one when I was a kid asking Allah to help me and second in my teen asking Allah to help me…. and continued)….. don’t worry I am with you as I was with you”….. I had to blow my head as I was satisfied…. He made me believe….So I feel I was always Ismaili as Imam was with me before! I read in Quran that Allah is with us, when my ears heard these words from Hazar Imam I felt complete, I felt I don’t need anything as I got everything Thank God….
I tried to read Ginans with translation before but have to stop because I felt I need someone to explain me some points… These days I am concentrating on Batine side of our faith, I am meditating which is keeping my focus on Ali…. I feel things automatically come my way! I feel Hazar Imam knows better what’s important for me so as per my knowledge everything (like some concept or anything to believe) comes my way….
Anyway thank you brothers
Zubair Mahamood
Today is very special day for me! I thank Allah for giving me this day where I m blessed Faith...
Thanks Karim for your help.... I have a clear vision of Holy Noor Allhamdulila, My faith is only based on Noor!kmaherali wrote:YAM Zubair,zubair_mahamood wrote:
I m learning things…. I read this first time but I always had a strong feeling it’s the same Noor taking my experience as example that’s y I defend every faith and say God is one… Then why do I find people (Ismailies opposing Sunnis as I was same Noor which thought them sharia… don’t tell me they don’t…. comparing practices or concepts means comparing Present Noor teaching with previous teaching which mean comparing Hazar Imam) what do you think….
Zubair Mahamood
Yes, essentially there has been only one Noor since the beginning. This Noor has assumed many expressions over time. MHI is the present bearer
of the Noor.
The links you gave me have useful information, but you didn’t answer my question with golden jubilee around I want my spiritual brothers and sisters to understand Allah is One! You have made a lot of contribution on all aspect of life and faith but why didn’t you start a Topic on "Pluralism".
I didn’t do anything Hazar Imam made me believe him! I m just following His instructions… Its exactly two years today, 31st of May 2005 was my first day when I accepted him or He Blessed me…. 1st year was stressfully nothing was clear where I was going today I m stressless with clear idea, secure and strong…. My friend are wishing me as I believe I am given a new life, its like My birthday….searcher wrote:YAM Zubair,
You have made great strides in learning about our faith and I just want to congratulate you because you have understood the essense of our faith, "Ali is Allah". There is a farman of Imam Aga Hasan Ali Shah that for the first few months of an infant's life, regardless of the faith in which the birth has taken place, he/she experiences the deedar of Ali all the time. The Holy Quran also alludes to this idea in that everyone is born a Muslim. You have been given the greatest gift that a human being can ever get, recognition of the Imam of the time because without this recognition, the soul can't be released from the cycle of re-birth.
As I am no scholar and my understanding of Gujrati is rather limited, I think you would be better off learning about the teachings of our Pirs by reading the translations of ginans yourself. This is how I learned myself and by listening to a lot of waaz. Here is the link to a list of ginans with translations:
http://www.ismaili.net/ginanbycategory.html
There is a farman of MSMS that ginans are the essense of the Holy Quran so please approach them as such when you read them.
I don’t have access to farmans yet but my experience with Imam are like Farmans to me which makes me believe I was born Ismaili! I was always Ismaili and will be inshallah… When I meet Hazar Imam last year I had a question in my heart I wanted to ask him but my tongue wasn’t helping my heart as my eyes didn’t want to blink He answered me! Well my heart was not satisfied with his answer, It wanted to ask another question He said “Don’t worry Zubair I am with you as I was with you” My heart was still not convinced about his reply! My tongue didn’t dare to ask anything, my eyes still didn’t want to blink and I didn’t want to let this movement pass… Then He said “I was with you when you didn’t know yourself….. (He reminded me of two occasions of my life which I had forgotten myself, one when I was a kid asking Allah to help me and second in my teen asking Allah to help me…. and continued)….. don’t worry I am with you as I was with you”….. I had to blow my head as I was satisfied…. He made me believe….So I feel I was always Ismaili as Imam was with me before! I read in Quran that Allah is with us, when my ears heard these words from Hazar Imam I felt complete, I felt I don’t need anything as I got everything Thank God….
I tried to read Ginans with translation before but have to stop because I felt I need someone to explain me some points… These days I am concentrating on Batine side of our faith, I am meditating which is keeping my focus on Ali…. I feel things automatically come my way! I feel Hazar Imam knows better what’s important for me so as per my knowledge everything (like some concept or anything to believe) comes my way….
Anyway thank you brothers
Zubair Mahamood
YAM Zubair,zubair_mahamood wrote: You have made a lot of contribution on all aspect of life and faith but why didn’t you start a Topic on "Pluralism".
There is a thread on pluralism under:
Current Issues --> Pluralism in Islamic Umma
Although it says, 'in Islamic Umma', it is not restricted to Islam only and some posts cover pluralism in humanity.