Using logic to rationalize Ismaili beliefs?

[mabus]

Assalamu-aleikum wa-rehmetullahi wa-barakatoh,
Ya Ali Madad!

I would like to thank all the brothers and sisters on here, so far they have been of an immense help. I am now convinced to an extent that Ismailism is historically correct in regards its Imamate and so forth, however its beliefs, though certainly interesting and spiritual, I am unsure if they can be proven using logic alone. I ask this, because in Twelverism that is an exercise that is often done to understand concepts in religion, and whilst I understand that Ismailism has a living Imam and hence does not need such exerices, is it still nonetheless possible?

For example, the idea of panentheism, that God is both reality and transcends reality, as well is above both good and evil. Is there a way to prove God is at least reality using sheer logic?

Also, Ismailism does not believe that man can understand truly good and evil without instruction from the Imam. I find it troubling that man cannot decipher between these two basic concepts, as an Asharite Sunni would believe (I'm suprised Ismailism doesn't even take the Maturidi Sunni view that we can understand major sins without the Imam). Twelvers believe almost all religion can be understood through sheer logic, hence our ability to survive through the Greater Occultation.

However, is it possible I am taking that concept too literally, and that without direct initiative from the Imam, all humans whether believing in him or not, understand good and evil through His light which emanates from all living things? If this is the case, it would make more sense, but on a literal plane that the world depends on its teachings to decipher good and evil is troubling to say the least. But perhaps it can be proven.

And, finally, can the initiatives, directions, and the orders of the Imam of the Time be understood through human logic, though in Ismaili theory the Imam transcends this novelty? I say Imam of the Time, because the other teachings of the Imams and so forth were limited to their time period, circumstance, and geography, hence I won't try to apply them in this question.

I posed the final question to a brother on this forum regarding Imam al-Hakim, and he used the parable of Khizr. While this is a really good response (that I can use against Twelvers no doubt), can logic nonetheless be applied and can the actions of the Divine be understood?

Thanks everyone so far, insh'Allah this will be a fruitful discussion.

[kmaherali]

I am now convinced to an extent that Ismailism is historically correct in regards its Imamate and so forth, however its beliefs, though certainly interesting and spiritual, I am unsure if they can be proven using logic alone. I ask this, because in Twelverism that is an exercise that is often done to understand concepts in religion, and whilst I understand that Ismailism has a living Imam and hence does not need such exerices, is it still nonetheless possible?.

The present Imam has indicated that Islam is logical else it would not have survived. As far as our doctrines are concerned, everything beginning from Allah's final revelation and until the need for a present living Imam is logical. Most of our prayers and rituals can be logically explained. We are encouraged to apply our intellects within the ethic of our faith. So long as one is ethical he can fully apply his intellect to know what is right and wrong.

For example, the idea of panentheism, that God is both reality and transcends reality, as well is above both good and evil. Is there a way to prove God is at least reality using sheer logic??

Quran states "Allahu Nuru Samawati wal Ardh" "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth." This explains the Immanent aspect of God.

Also, Ismailism does not believe that man can understand truly good and evil without instruction from the Imam. I find it troubling that man cannot decipher between these two basic concepts, as an Asharite Sunni would believe (I'm suprised Ismailism doesn't even take the Maturidi Sunni view that we can understand major sins without the Imam). Twelvers believe almost all religion can be understood through sheer logic, hence our ability to survive through the Greater Occultation.

As explained above we are encouraged to use our intellects within the ethic of our faith, but if our notion of good and evil contradicts the judgement of the Imam, then his view prevails. Only he is capable of being aware of all intentions behind everything. Our view may be limited and what appears to us as good may in the grand scheme of things turn out to be evil.

And, finally, can the initiatives, directions, and the orders of the Imam of the Time be understood through human logic, though in Ismaili theory the Imam transcends this novelty? I say Imam of the Time, because the other teachings of the Imams and so forth were limited to their time period, circumstance, and geography, hence I won't try to apply them in this question..

In most cases Imam himself explains the logic behind his activities especially in worldly matters. Most of his farmans are also grounded in logic. However, if his orders contradict logic, murids are expected to follow them.

I posed the final question to a brother on this forum regarding Imam al-Hakim, and he used the parable of Khizr. While this is a really good response (that I can use against Twelvers no doubt), can logic nonetheless be applied and can the actions of the Divine be understood?

As was explained to you in one of your previous discontinued thread, Imam does not have to adhere to the norms or the Sharia, he is beyond it. As not all actions of the Divine are understandable (there is a providential mystery to it), similarly there is mystery to Imam's actions.

[mabus]

Thanks, your points cleared up lots of my questions. A few things though.

Quran states "Allahu Nuru Samawati wal Ardh" "Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth." This explains the Immanent aspect of God.

But that would be a Twelver belief (Ali is the first light and continuing light of the Heavens and of the Earth). Shouldn't it say that Allah IS the Heavens and the Earth instead of him being the light? That would prove panentheism, not this verse. Do you perchance have another verse?

As explained above we are encouraged to use our intellects within the ethic of our faith, but if our notion of good and evil contradicts the judgement of the Imam, then his view prevails. Only he is capable of being aware of all intentions behind everything. Our view may be limited and what appears to us as good may in the grand scheme of things turn out to be evil.

Just out of curiosity to make sure I stated it correctly, the Imam (AS) though he acts within the confines of good and evil, he transcends both of them too, correct? Just a question.

[kmaherali]

But that would be a Twelver belief (Ali is the first light and continuing light of the Heavens and of the Earth). Shouldn't it say that Allah IS the Heavens and the Earth instead of him being the light? That would prove panentheism, not this verse. Do you perchance have another verse?

That is a good point because the Noor represents the Universal Intellect which would be embodied in the Imam (in the 12 ver view). How about this one:
(Sura II Ayah 115 )To God belong the East and the West withersoever Ye turn, there is the presence of God For God is All-Pervading, All-Knowing.

Just out of curiosity to make sure I stated it correctly, the Imam (AS) though he acts within the confines of good and evil, he transcends both of them too, correct? Just a question.

Yes that is correct. Good and evil are relative terms really depending upon a frame of reference. The Imam transcends all frames of reference and hence the mystery.

[zubair_mahamood]

Mabus my brother wsalam n Mowla Ali Madaad,

I advised you to practice your faith.... I don’t want you to convince… it’s a request…. Concentrate on what you know… When reality will come to you I don’t think you will be able to accept it…. If you are convinced with Ismaili Doctrine will you leave your traditional practises? Then what are you up too! If you get proofs will you?

[mabus]

Mabus my brother wsalam n Mowla Ali Madaad,

I advised you to practice your faith.... I don’t want you to convince… it’s a request…. Concentrate on what you know… When reality will come to you I don’t think you will be able to accept it…. If you are convinced with Ismaili Doctrine will you leave your traditional practises? Then what are you up too! If you get proofs will you?

Thank you for your post, dear friend.

If truth comes to me I will give up the truth of my traditional practices and gladly except Aga Khan IV as the beloved creator and lover of my soul and the Lord of the Age. But I cannot rush to a conclusion, everything must be logical.

[zubair_mahamood]

Ok then carry on with your quest… I am 27, till 23 I didn’t knew a single Ismaili today I call my self Ismaili because I have faith in Hazar Imam…. I feel it’s a miracle but understand it is natural!

If you take a step toward Allah, He takes 100 steps towards you… If walk toward Him, He comes running towards you… If you talk about him in a gathering, He talks about you in gathering of angles…. If you Call Him once for help “ALLAH” HE replies you 100 times “What do u want”…. He is with us always but we are not with him that’s y we are unable to understand! Hope you will find truth… I won’t stop you*

Logic can give you idea but faith is only granted by Allah... It's never certain that we all end up in similar fashion... Time will shwo where you end up.... anyways you carry on with your Quest..

Allah Hafiz

Zubair Mahamood