My interpretation about our Faith

[southyam]

I was studying our Daily Prayers and I came to a conclusion (feel free to comment and raise some issues on it) that may have been obvious to many of you, but as they say...the knowledge you internalize yourself is the knowledge that sticks...

The issue and question arose when I was trying to deal with the unending and highly intriguing question about Ali and Allah.......the relationships, the unity, etc.

Anyway here is my basic interpretation that I wanted to share:
______________________________________________________
Ali is the guide to Allah...they are together. Rays (beams) of light are part of the sun.

Ali is the guiding light to the sun. God guides us to the right path by Ali. If you disobey Ali you disobey God. If you follow Ali's Noor, you follow God.
________________________________________________________

I realize that this is a very personal issue, and that there is a plurality in interpretations. I Just wanted to share what I have learned.

[Maloutfy]

Assalam Alaikum.

Actually I am not Ismaili but so interested in learning about this faith. Your interpretation has amazed me. Could you please give an interpretation about Mohammed. If Imam Ali is the path to God so what is Profit Mohammed then?

[kmaherali]

Assalam Alaikum.

Actually I am not Ismaili but so interested in learning about this faith. Your interpretation has amazed me. Could you please give an interpretation about Mohammed. If Imam Ali is the path to God so what is Profit Mohammed then?

Wa Alaykum Salaam,

According to all schools of Islam, Muhammad(as) was the vehicle through which Allah's final revelation and message came down to mankind. According to the Shia interpretation, the revelation came to fruition upon the appointment of Hazrat Ali at Ghadir-e-Khum and hence ensured that Allah's message would continue forever through his progeny who are always present as the 'Ulil Amr' (the holders of authority).

[zubair_mahamood]

The appointment of Hazrat Ali at Ghadir-e-khum is recognised by all schools but practically not accepted by Sunnis community…

Great contemporary Islamic thinker, exegete, scholar and statesman! Professor Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri says in His Book The Ghadir Declaration "One who has me as his master has Ali as his master" ...."this was the declaration of Ali’s spiritual sovereignty and its unconditional acceptance is binding on the believers till the day of Judgement… it clearly proves that anyone who denies Ali’s spiritual leadership in fact denies the Prophet’s leadership….” A book every Sunni must read who doesn’t accept Hazrat Ali and thinks it was all political or XYZ…

http://www.research.com.pk/home/fmri/bo ... inhaj?id=0

[Maloutfy]

Assalam Alaikum

Thanks for the clarification. I am not Ismaili but I believe in the continuation of the revelation with Hazrat Ali and his sons and grant sons. However, the question is: do Mohammed and Ali have an equal position towards God. If not, is it according Ismailism that Ali has an advanced position off Mohammed?
Moreover, Do Ismailis have the same belief in Ali’s position alike the Twelvers or there is a difference. If yes, what is this difference?

[davlat_dida]

Assalam Alaikum

Thanks for the clarification. I am not Ismaili but I believe in the continuation of the revelation with Hazrat Ali and his sons and grant sons. However, the question is: do Mohammed and Ali have an equal position towards God. If not, is it according Ismailism that Ali has an advanced position off Mohammed?
Moreover, Do Ismailis have the same belief in Ali’s position alike the Twelvers or there is a difference. If yes, what is this difference?

Salam alaykum

There position is the same and equal.

[Maloutfy]

So if they are both equal towards God what is the role that each has been commissioned for?
If the concept of of Hazrat Mohammed and Hazrat Ali is equal, this means that Ismaili’s faith is based on Trinity! Is this correct? If not, what is the difference?

[star_munir]

No its not at all Trinity.

Pir Shahbudin Shah says in Risala dar haqikat deen :
"that people became too inquisitive towards the end of Muhammad's life, and then the chapter of the Coran (CXIV) "Say: God is One" was revealed. All those things that you attribute to God from your imagination come out your fantasy. Most probably even animals create [33] their own God free from their own defects, ascribing to Him (the opposite) perfectionsIf so, it is necessary (wajib) to follow those religious Leaders
(pishwayan), who simply say: "We are the properties of God". Realize,
brother, that it is they who see, they who listen. The ordinary mortals
are unable to do anything except obey orders. It is said: "who knows
me, knows God", -note this properly, brother. We need here a clear
example which should make it easy to understand this: -the light that
emanates from the lamp obviously is not the lamp itself; but if there
were no light, [34] would you know what a lamp is, and where it stands?
Thus it is (only) through the light that you can perceive the lamp, you
know the lamp from the light."

Our Lord (i.e. 'Ali ibn Abi Talib) says that the Prophet had delivered

his message, and, being entrusted with the outer side of religion (zahir)

he carried on the war for religion (jihad). "And I (i.e. Mawla 'Ali) am

concerned with the batin, or the deeper meaning of religion." He

explained the meaning of batin in different ways

The Arabian Hashmite Prophet (God bless him and his posterity) said that

his successors, the members of his family (ahli Bayt), cannot be

separated from the Coran which is (the book) showing the difference

between what is right (haqq) and what is wrong (batil); by these his

people may return to him, at the tank of Kawthar. He said: [46] "And

these two sacred and pure things I leave amongst you as a security. So

long as you cling to these, you will never be lost on you way after me."

But in spite of this commandment of the Prophet the selfish people

became preoccupied with other matters, forgetting all about the command

concerning the 'close relatives', 'itrat, of the Apostle of God, straying

away from the right path and falling for ever into the pit of temptations

and depravity
Look at the sun, the moon,

and the stars which continuously move in their eternal paths; the day

goes, and the night arrives, and again the morning dawns, and evening

descends; the world becomes old, and then revives; those who must come,

come, and pass on, and things that did not exist come into existence.

Every day new workers come to the task regardless of how many of them

were not there, and come but to go again.


If it were destined that a Manifestation (zahur) of the Divine Substance

should take place at some time, what should be the fault of those who

were not yet born at that time? [48] Or of those who lived befor it, or

did not recognize it? What have they to do, and how can people find the

way of Truth, how can they follow it?

[davlat_dida]

So if they are both equal towards God what is the role that each has been commissioned for?
If the concept of of Hazrat Mohammed and Hazrat Ali is equal, this means that Ismaili’s faith is based on Trinity! Is this correct? If not, what is the difference?

Muhammad's (PBUH) mission was to deliver the Zahiri aspect of religion, and Ali's was to deliver the Batini aspect, as stated by star_munir.

[Maloutfy]

Sorry could you please elaborate more on the features of alzaher and albaten? What does each one of them mean to the ismailis? However, it is still not clear to me whether the equal position of Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Mohammed for Ismailis is equivalent to what is considered in this context for the Twelvers! Moreover, is it legitimate to ask why is Hazrat Ali selected to reveal Albaten and Hazrat Mohammed plays the role for revealing the other matter? Does that mean that Hazrat Ali’s role has to deal merely with the elite of the believers while Hazrat Mohammed has to deal only with the public who could not understand and go deeply in the Baten? If this is so, how come we could still consider that both persons would have an equal profile.

[razinizar]

Dear Maloutfy
You will Certainly find different Opinions, from different ismailis about Hazrat Ali and Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) Roles & Relationship.

if you ask me, what i have experienced that
Hazrat Muhammad (P.B.U.H) is Founder of Islam, He has founded the base of Islam.
He is the Messanger of Allah and the Final Prophet.
In Quran

Muhammad was not the father of any man among you. He was a messenger of GOD and the final prophet. GOD is fully aware of all things.
[Quran 33:40] .

To Understand more, I Give an Example, Like one of the occasion Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) said, "I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is the door".

To Eloborate that hadith, Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) has founded the base of ISLAM and had Given the Knowledge and Wisdom from Allah. Hazrat Ali and all the Imams are Guide to that Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) knowledge in every age and time. Which means to Gain the Knowledge of Prophet, we need to grab the Rope of Imamat.

Both Hazrat Ali and Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) consist the same Nur (Allah) and Nur is always the Same, the Ranks and Roles are different.
Like One of the Occassion Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) Said All the Members of Panjtan Paak is ONE. (Like a Hand Which consist Five Fingers).

In Quran,
Those who disbelieved say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord (we will then believe)." You are simply a warner - every community receives a guiding teacher. [Quran 13:7]

From the Above Sura in Ismaili Point of view, the WARNER is Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and the GUIDE is Hazrat AlI till Present Imams.

From out of that Discussion think about One thing.
If Quaid-E-Azam is the Founder of Pakistan, and General Pervaiz Mushraf is the President of Pakistan. What was the role of both of them ?.

The Answers which has been posted above is One of my opnion, and i don't know what Others think about it. but thats the way i see it.

[skaswani]

salam & Ya Ali madad to all


Dear Maloutfy,


i think you might be a Sunni Bro! so i have some good references OF Sunni Alims regarding the Concept & Term of Imam!


1)

Allamah Taftazani stated:

“Imamate is an empire in terms of the vicegerency of Prophet [s], for the affairs that pertain to the world and religion”
Sharah Maqasid, Volume 5 page 232


point to note : - for the affairs of Worls & Religion!


2)

Renowned Sunni scholar Mawardi (d. 450 AH) wrote:

“Imamate is prescribed to succeed Prophethood as a means of protecting the Deen, and managing the affairs of this world”
Al-Ahkam al Sultaniyyah page 10 (Ta-Ha publishers, London)


Note:- so, according to him Imam Succeed Prophet!



3)

Shah Ismaeel Shaheed Dehlavi comments on the position of the Imam:

"Imamate is the Shadow of the Prophethood...”
Mansab-e-Imamate, page 105


Note:- Imamat is the shadow of Prophethood!



4)

On the rank of Khilafath / Imamate Shah Moinuddin Ahmed Nadvi writes:

“In reality Khilafath or Imamate is the Prophets standing position, after him it is guidance for the Ummah…after Prophethood it carries the greatest position is Islam”.
Khilafah Rashideen page 11



Note :- in this Scholor understanding Imamat & Prophethood are 2 sides of coin!



5)

Allamah Shibli Numani stated in much better way:

“The rank of Imamat is actually a reflection of Prophethood and the nature of the Imam has been found to be very close to the nature of the Prophet”
Al-Faruq, page 325 (Published by Maktaba Madina, Urdu Bazaar, Lahore)


Note:- Imam is the Reflection of Prophet!


6) another!

Imam Rabbani; Shaykh Ahmad Sarhandi while referring to the same rank of Imamate as Wilayah wrote:

“The gist of the discussion is that Wilayah is the reflection of Prophethood”
Maktubaat, Volume 2 page 253 (Idarah Islamiyah. Lahore)


Note:- again reflection!


-------------

so, those were sunni alims point of view!

we as ismaili believe in Imam of Hazart Ali a.s through Prophet & Allah!


we dont compare Prophets & Imams!

we believe that Both are from Same Noor!

like Prophet pbuh himself said " I and Ali is from one Noor"


regards!

[Maloutfy]

Dear brother skaswani and all,

Salaam.,

Yes, I am raised as Sunny but I consider myself is pure Moslem. I do not specify myself in any of Islamic sects yet. I consider that I am still developing my knowledge about Islam. Therefore, I wanted to learn about Ismailism that is really interested to me. I really admire and appreciate all cultural deeds that your community has performed during the history of Islam.

My question still is the following:

What is the difference then between Ismailism and the faith of the Sheiat Twelvers in terms of perception of Hazrat Ali?

The other question, do you have same perception as the Sheiat Twelvers towards the Khulafa Rashidin?

Some of the Sheiat Twelvers (extremists) believe that the Khulafa stole the Welaia and the Khelafa from Hazrat Ali. What do you think about that?

[kmaherali]

My question still is the following:

What is the difference then between Ismailism and the faith of the Sheiat Twelvers in terms of perception of Hazrat Ali?

The other question, do you have same perception as the Sheiat Twelvers towards the Khulafa Rashidin?

Some of the Sheiat Twelvers (extremists) believe that the Khulafa stole the Welaia and the Khelafa from Hazrat Ali. What do you think about that?

Salaam Alaykum,

Cyril Glasse in his "The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam" explains the differences between various branches of Shia Islam as:

"The differences among the various ShT'ite groups hinge in part upon the identity of the Imams, that is, which of 'All's descendants inherited his authority, and also upon the question of the extent and nature of this authority. At one end of the spectrum are the ghulat (from (ghuluv, "exaggeration"), the most extreme of whom are outside Islam altogether and make 'Ali into nothing less than Divine. Thev are sometimes called "ultra-ShT'ites", but sects like the 'Ali IlahTs ('"Ali-Divines") are really "trans-ShT'ites", beyond ShT'ism altogether. At the other end of the spectrum is a sect like the ZaydTs who see in the Ima-mate a function which may or may not be exercised at a particular time by a descendant of the Prophet, and which does not necessarily include a claim to sanctity. Midway between these points of view, the Twelve-Imam ShT'ites assert that the Imam holds a spiritual and political pre-eminence and possesses special graces, miraculous powers, secret knowledge ('ilm) and favor which God has bestowed on no-one else. The Imams channel a Divine light (Nur Muhammadi) and are also considered to be "sinless". The Imam is necessary both for creation to be sustained, and for the believer to win salvation. A saying is attributed to Ja'tar as-Sadiq, the sixth Imam: "Who dies without knowing the Imam of his time dies an unbeliever." In other words, Twelve-Imam ShT'ites make the Imam into an intermediary between man and God.
This clearly resembles the idea of the Logos; the Imams are envisaged as halt-human and halt-Divine means of salvation, and this is an idea which the rest ot Islam precisely avoids in favor of salvation by direct surrender to God without intermediaries. Moreover, such a conception of 'AlT and the Imams necessarily implies a profound ambiguity regarding the Prophet himself. No such claims are made forr the Prophet in ShT'ism and this inevitably gives the Prophet a lesser role, in fact it not in name, as compared to 'AlT. It is this which create's the real divergence with orthodox SunnT Islam."

On the issue of whether the Ismailis accept the first three khalifs as the rightful ones, the following statement made by the 48th Imam, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah explains this very clearly.

THE FINAL RECONCILIATION BETWEEN SUNNI AND SHIA DOCTRINES

A Declaration
Undated
The foundation of Imami Ismailism - the position of the Ulu 'l amrMenkom - public proclamation of the reconciliation between Sh . and Sunni doctrines.

It is more than ever necessary that the foundation of Imami-Ismailism should be understood by the new generation of Ismailis throughout the world. If those who believe that Hazrat Alv was the rightful successor of the Prophet to be the 'Ulu'l-ar Menkom must accept the principle of that succession for the same reasons they accept in the case of Hazrat Aly his rightful Imam descendants.

The Imami Ismailis maintain that the position of the 'Ul . amr Menkom never dies out and this succession goes on till the day of judgement on earth. For this reason Ismailis celebrate the exceptionally long Imamat as they would celebrate every ascension to the spiritual throne of the Imamat in each century. In the present Imamat the final reconciliation between the Shia and Sunni doctrines has been publicly proclaimed by myself on exactly the same lines as Hazrat Aly did at the death of the Prophet and during the first thirty years after that. The political and worldly Khalifat was accepted by Hazrat Aly in favour of the three first Khalifs voluntarily and with goodwill for the protection of the interests of the Muslims throughout the world.

We Ismailis now in the same spirit accept the Khalifat of the first Khalifs and such other Khalifs as during the last thirteen centuries helped the cause of Islam, politically, socially and from a worldly point of view. On the other hand the Spiritual Imamat remained with Hazrat Aly and remains with his direct descendants always alive till the day of Judgement. That a spiritual succession to the Imamat makes the Imam the 'Ulu'1-amr Menkom always according to the Koran and though he has his moral claim to the Khalifat as well, always he can, like Hazrat Aly himself owing to the conditions of the world accept and support such worldly authorities as the Imam believes help the cause of Islam. Thus a final reconciliation without upsetting either Sunni or Shiah doctrine has been proclaimed always by me as the faith of all the Ismailis.

Source: Itehadrel-Islam, Otherwise Known as the Cultural, Religious, Economic Pan-Islamism, Pan-Islam Series no. 5, n.p., n.p.p., n.d., pp. 1—4.
The introductory note in the pamphlet ran:
"As Imam of the Ismailis H.R.H. Prince Aga Khan made two very important declarations for the unity of Islam to the Muslim world on the final reconciliations of the Sunni and Shiah doctrines as understood by the Ismailis."

Published in 'Agakhan III Selected Speeches and Writings of Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah', Edited by K.K. Aziz. Pg 1417

[Maloutfy]

Thanks for this brief idea about the sheiat the Twelvers. But my question now, how much the sheiat Ismaili would agree or disagree with the Twelver’s perception about Imam Ali? Don’t you have the same understanding of his role/authority or you have a different perception. Sorry if I am repeating this question. Actually, I need to have as much as clear perception of this issue.

[kmaherali]

Thanks for this brief idea about the sheiat the Twelvers. But my question now, how much the sheiat Ismaili would agree or disagree with the Twelver’s perception about Imam Ali? Don’t you have the same understanding of his role/authority or you have a different perception. Sorry if I am repeating this question. Actually, I need to have as much as clear perception of this issue.

As you may be aware, Ismailism is an esoteric tradition and hence there are on the one hand principles or doctrines which are shared by all and through which we articulate our faith to others and on the other hand, there is individual understanding which is attained through spiritual elevation. Therefore, at a doctrinal level, the Ismaili understanding of the authority is very close to that of 12ver Shism. However at a personal level, the interpretation will vary and some may even come to the understanding that Ali is indeed God, and you will also find expressions in our esoteric literature alluding to this. But unlike the ghulats we do not have that understanding as our doctrine, it is confined to the domain of the 'Batin", i.e., it is not for all.

[Maloutfy]

In other discussions I read through on the forum page ofthis web site, I learnt that Ismaili has two aspects the Inner part and the external part (Albaten – Alzaher). My question is about the Albaten – the Inner part -. Did I understand correct that according to this aspect, Ismaili could interpret the religion freely and they could reach the ultimate point where they could declare that the Imam Ali is the God himself? If this is true, do not you think that this is a dangerous conclusion that could be considered by other Islamic doctrines as an unfaithful approach (KUfr)? If this is true, how come that the Imam could be considered as God but not the Profit whom would be considered like this? How come this is true, while the Imam is the path to the recognition of the Profit and not the other way!

[zubair_mahamood]

Slm,

I was daily think where u wanted to reach by your question, finally v r here….. Ok. It will be very easy for me to explain you as you are Sunni… I apology to Ismaili brother if I go wrong… please help me if I go wrong….

According to Islamic Doctrine, Prophet's are Innocent…. They don’t talk by themselves but By Allah… please read
Hadiths No.2 from the website I post before….

“Imran Bin Husayn has narrated that Allah’s Massager said: What do you people want about Ali? What do you people want about Ali? What do you people want about Ali? Then added: Surly Ali is from me and I am from Ali and after me he is the Guardian of every believer”

We believe Ali's Noor is the same Noor which was given to Adam; it’s the same Noor which Our 49th Imam possesses… The Noor travelled form Generations to Generations reached Prophet Muhammad and then to Hazarath Ali…. Many in the time of Prophet Muhammad have seen him physically but only few had the change / blessing to actually see the Noor/ the reality…. Even today every one sees Shah Karim in his Physical form not everyone is blessed to see his actually form.

Not all Prophets got to see Allah, similarly All Prophets didn’t get complete message of Allah…. some spoke to Allah (like Prophet Muse), some had vision of Allah but Prophet Muhammad (who is the Prophet of Prophets) got the night of Mahraj… where He actually saw Allah (its from sunni doctrine)… when some of his companions asked Prophet have you seen Allah, how was Allah… Prophet replied… It was Noor… Only Noor… From All Angles Its was Noor…. And in words of Local Imam of mosque: which you must have heard on every night of Mahraj each year…. “When they (Allah and Prophet Muhammad) meet they were like Two Pillars of Noor…. Which looked separate but actually were one”….. I practiced Sunni faith till 24 year of my age and I was in mosques in Asia, Middle East and Europe…. This was the same explanation of All Imams…. If that stage of Faith is not Kufr then how you can say that this stage of Ismailies where they interpret Ali as Allah then it is Kufr….

When Sunni Scholars say Prophets Words are Allah words… taking oath in Hands of Prophet Muhammad is like taking Oath at Allah Hand…. this stage of interpretation of sunni faith is not Kufr ... And when some Ismailies go little future and say Ali is Allah and see those two Pillars as one u want to say it is kufr….

We don’t say Physical form of Ali is Allah… if we did it then Ali was dead 1300+ yrs ago… we don’t say Physical Form of Shah Karim is Allah… it should be understood and interpreted….

An example for this is…a common/popular name in Sunni community is Muhammad… May be you have some one by this name (your brother, or a friend or relative) when you call your brother by his Name Muhammad do you actually call Him or Prophet Muhammad….

When we call Ali is Allah we are in that stage of faith where those two pillars are still one to us not that Ali what you and others see….

Zubair Mahamood

[kmaherali]

Did I understand correct that according to this aspect, Ismaili could interpret the religion freely and they could reach the ultimate point where they could declare that the Imam Ali is the God himself? If this is true, do not you think that this is a dangerous conclusion that could be considered by other Islamic doctrines as an unfaithful approach (KUfr)? If this is true, how come that the Imam could be considered as God but not the Profit whom would be considered like this? How come this is true, while the Imam is the path to the recognition of the Profit and not the other way!

Salaam Alaykum

AlBatin by definition is Albatin, that is it is hidden and not apparent. The understanding that Ali is Allah is something that is acquired through spiritual elevation and not through reason and book knowledge and hence it cannot be a matter of public declaration. It is a personal matter and those who come to that understanding will also have the wisdom to recognise that this understanding cannot be made public.

In Sufi Islam, it is generally accepted that the Prophet was also the bearer of the Noor and some also maintain that he had indeed attained the highest status comparable to Hazarat Ali. But again this is not something that is for the general public. It is a matter of the 'Al Batin'.

I think it is important to make the distinction between the 'Al Zaher' and 'Al Batin' in the discourse about the authority of the Imam. I hope that clarifies.

[davlat_dida]

The understanding that Ali is Allah is something that is acquired through spiritual elevation and not through reason and book knowledge
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this understading requires the use of the "Intellect" and not the faculty of reason, which can be done through spiritual contemplation. It is "unearthing the buried treasures of the intellect" as the Imam puts it.

[zubair_mahamood]

Yes I agree with u davlat_dida that Ali is Allah is something that’s acquired through spiritual elevation not through reason or book knowledge…. It’s easy to tell Ali is Allah but to understand it we need to experience it….

Brother Maloutfy anytime did u stand in front of Kaba, if not ask someone who has…. It gives a feeling that you are standing in front of Allah… No way is Kaba Allah but you have a feeling, it’s a feeling that acquired by once internal soul not by any book…

People who go to Hajj go with a feeling that Prophet Muhammad in alive but actual He died 1400 yrs ago… All this things are spiritual; these feeling are all sign of something hidden…. Ask people who had been to Hajj or Umra, each one has his own experience and individual believe about Allah….

Jews never accepted Prophet Isa (Jesus)… Christians didn’t accept Prophet Muhammad…. Sunni didn’t accept Imam Ali and twelvers don’t accept Hazar Imam Shah Karim…. Here the Question is how we can be comfortable? Well the answer is by respecting each other interpretation not by pointing finger…. At the end we all will reach same place by different paths because Allah is One …. So dear Brother try to learn and practice your faith….

Zubair Mahamood

[Maloutfy]

Dear brothers, Assalam Alaikum and Ya Ali Madad,

Many apologies if I am asking offending questions or if the way of I have asked the last question has offended you. First I should say again that my participation in this forum is I method I have chosen in order to learn and increase knowledge in the context of Islam and Islamic sects. I should say that Ismailism has been of an inthusiastic and amazing field of knowledge for me and I highly admire you a group of people/community according to what you have showing of civilized performance during history and in the present.

My interest about ismailism comes as a part of my seek for the truth. I am not a researcher n religions. I am not telling a secret if you would have to say that the issue of zaher and baten has been of an interest for me, since I am interested in Sufism and I am a member of an a sufi group. Knowledge and soul elevation are to significant in Sufism. The way of how I asked you about your thought regarding Hazrat Imama Ali is not more than of being transparent and believe me nothing behind my question. I do not accuse Ismailis of unfaithful (Kufr), first because I have learnt that I do not have the right to accuse whoever Moslem of Kufr. I know it is a provocative way of how I have asked a question. But I believe in the same time to ask questions. You are Ahl thekr, no? I am sure yes and there hadith that says “and ask the people of invocation in case you do not know” “Wasalu ahl althekr en kuntum la talamoun”.

Now my question to you, if considering Hazrat Imam Ali as God according to the soul elevation due to the Baten aspect of Ismailism (and I do not have any problem myself in this off course, I respect your faith with any doubts). So how similar your faith to the Nusairis? I learnt that Nusairis believe that Ali is the God himself. Do you have any idea about that? Do you think that Nusairis were part of Ismailism? Are they Moslem?

By the way, I do have high respect to Hazrat Imam Ali Since my childhood and I recognized my interest in studying about Islamic sects, I recognized the special position of Hazrat Imam Ali and I have a lot of blaming to Sunnies (this for you brother Zubair Mahmood) about how they avoid any idea that would elevate of Hazrat Imam’s position before the eyes of the Sunny public.

Any comments; and many thanks for the highly respectful way of discussion. Please do not be offended.

[kmaherali]

So how similar your faith to the Nusairis? I learnt that Nusairis believe that Ali is the God himself. Do you have any idea about that? Do you think that Nusairis were part of Ismailism? Are they Moslem?

As Salaam Alaykum

I would say that Nusairis are very close to Ismailism. The only shortcoming I can find in them is that they are making public what is really in the domain of the 'Batin' just as Mansur Al Hallaj declaring 'I am the Truth'. Perhaps in that context they felt justified. There is a discussion on them in this forum under:

Anecdotes --> Do anyone know?

You can raise your questions there.

[star_munir]

There is a topic differences between Nusairis and Ismailis in dosctrine section. You may refer from there too.

[kmaherali]

There is a topic differences between Nusairis and Ismailis in dosctrine section. You may refer from there too.

It may be difficult to find it. Here is the link

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 6b745b18eb

[Maloutfy]

Thanks for your kind Tolerance, understanding, and guidance.

Through other discussions on this forum, I learnt that according to Ismailism there were Imams before Hazrat Imam Ali. Would they be considered as God due to the Baten in Ismailism?

Since Ismailism is alike the Sufism taking into account Alzaher and Albaten issue, could you please elaborate more on this similarity? What does Ismailism think about Sufism. Could you please guide me to any relevant discussions on this forum? Are their books, publications, and/or articles talking about this issue?


Thanks.

[Virgo2]

You will find your answers in a book called Imam - No God But God by Reza Aslan a Non-Ismaili Muslim, which shows other Muslims believe what Ismailis believe too:

Extract: Imam

The existence of the Imam is essential, according to the preeminent Shi’ite theologian, Allamah Tabataba’I, because human beings need the divine message to be elucidated for them – and not just elucidate, but preserved and renewed. Because human beings do not have the capacity to attain knowledge of God on their own, the Imam becomes a continuous necessity for all societies and in every era. So in addition to the “fixed’ number of Imams who succeeded Muhammad’s earthly authority, there must also exist an “ever present” or “pre-existent” Imam who, as the eternal guardian of the Revelation, functions as “Proof of God on Earth”. Thus, the first Imam was neither Mohammad nor Ali but Adam. And while the functions of Imam and Prophet have occasionally existed in a single individual, the difference between the two positions is primarily one of consciousness. A prophet, claim the Shi’ah, is someone who has, by the divine will, become conscious of God’s eternal message, which forever envelops creation like a numinous ether we cannot escape, while the Imam is someone who explicates the message for those who possess neither the prophetic consciousness necessary to recognize it nor the power of reason to understand it. Put another way, the prophet transmits the Message of God, while the Imam translates it for human beings.

According to the Shi’ah, this relationship between Prophet and Imam can be observed throughout the history of prophecy. Abraham may have been given the covenant by God, but it was Isaac and Ismail who, as his Imams, fulfilled it Moses may have revealed the divine law, but it was Aaron who carried it into the Promised Land; Jesus may have preached salvation, but it was Peter who built the church. In the same way, Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets, may have revealed God’s message to Arabs, but it was left to Ali, his legitimate successor, to execute it. Thus the Shi’ite profession of faith:

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is God’s Messenger, and Ali is God’s Executor (wali).”

As the executor of God’s will, the Imam is, like the Prophet, infallible and sinless, for “sin would destroy the validity of the call.” Consequently, the Shi’ah developed the view that the Imams were created not from dust, as other humans were, but from eternal light. Furthermore, the Imams are said to preserve a secret esoteric knowledge handed down from Imam to Imam in a mystical transfer of consciousness.

It is this spiritual guidance that gives the Imam sole authority to interpret the Qu’ran.

Virgo2

[kmaherali]

Through other discussions on this forum, I learnt that according to Ismailism there were Imams before Hazrat Imam Ali. Would they be considered as God due to the Baten in Ismailism? .

Yes, Iamamt at the level of Batin has never changed. According to the 'batin', the Prophet made the institution of the Imamat apparent. Before that it was restricted to a limited audience. The list of some Imams before Hazarat Ali is given at at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 90c2e0b1d9

Since Ismailism is alike the Sufism taking into account Alzaher and Albaten issue, could you please elaborate more on this similarity? What does Ismailism think about Sufism. Could you please guide me to any relevant discussions on this forum? Are their books, publications, and/or articles talking about this issue?


Thanks.

The following Farman of Hazar Imam to his Spritual Children (murids) expalins the similarities between Ismailism and Sufi Islam by way of allusion to Mansur Al Hallaj.

"My beloved spiritual children, 1 would like to ask you one more question, which I appreciate is difficult and I do not expect you to know the answer, yet 1 wish to find out whether or not you know the answer. It is not necessary that you must know the answer, but should you know, you may give it. Do you know who was al-Hallaj? Which spiritual child here can tell me who was al-Hallaj?
(One spiritual child answered: "Mansur al-Hallaj.") What was his main aim in life?
(The same spiritual child replied: "To be one with Allah," and further added that Mansur achieved the status of Fana lillah and said "Ano l Hoq.")

My beloved spiritual children, the question I asked was difficult. It was a very difficult question because it did not concern our history, but it concerned a concept, a concept of the practice of Islam which is close to our concept, which is the concept of spitituality. Al Hallaj became a martyr because he believed that he had elevated his soul, that he had sufficiently eliminated all worldly matters, so that his soul should be identified with Oneness, with Universal Unity. He claimed publicly "Anal-Hag," which means "I am the Truth," and the Muslims of the time treated him as a heretic and he was put to death as a heretic. The reason 1 asked this question is that I want my spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam • the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say, "No, there is no esoteric form of Islam, there is but an exoteric form." This is why I asked who was al-Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was al-Hallaj."