Confused or not

[samirziz]

let me say this firstly.. I am postive that Shah Karim is in layman's terms God. He is the holder of the Noor, the mazhar of Allah. So here's my question.

While Sultan Mohamed Shah (A.S) was Imam, what was Karim Shah ( Prince Karim by then), was he well " one of us", a human who's ultimate goal is to become one with the creator? If that is so, he must have prayed to Allah just like us is it not?

At what moment in time, second, did the noor pass to Karim Shah?

these questions may not have answers, and probably wont, but i thought i'd ask, because i am sure many of us, at least me become confused when we think of such concepts, but should these questions bother me? All i am required to know is Karim Shah/Ali is my Lord, my final destination, my goal.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

[kmaherali]

Imams are born Imams, the external designation is for the sake of making the world know who the Imam is and not to make an Imam.

Imam Hassan Ala Dhikrihis Salaam is quoted by Tusi in his Paradise of Submission (pg. 123) as saying:

"For example it would be wrong to suppose that he should be better when he reaches maturitythan when he was a drop of sperm, or better when the designation (nass) was made than before it was made. The designation which is made is not in order to make him an Imam; it is only made so that people should recognise him as such - otherwise, from his standpoint and perspective, all such different states are one and the same."

The future Imam until he is designated will act as a murid and pray like others, but in reality his status is equivalent to the current Imam.

[samirziz]

Still confused... Does that mean there were two Ali's, Sultan Mohamed Shah and Karim Shah.. Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah was the holder of the Noor. There cant be two Imams existing at the same. At least i think so.

Perhaps i shouldnt ask these questions, because i dont think one can ever find a definitive answer, unless one is blessed with the divine vision.

[kmaherali]

Still confused... Does that mean there were two Ali's, Sultan Mohamed Shah and Karim Shah.. Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah was the holder of the Noor. There cant be two Imams existing at the same. At least i think so.

Perhaps i shouldnt ask these questions, because i dont think one can ever find a definitive answer, unless one is blessed with the divine vision.

There can be many individuals at a given time who have attained the spiritual status of the Imam, but there is only one who functions as the Imam and is recognised as such.

The Imam represents the highest status attainable.

[nagib]

There can never be 2 imams at the same time if you mean by Imam the Mazhar of Allah. Imam is the supreme symbole of the ONE.

Hazar Imam has made clear in his BK farmans which I do not want to quote here that you can become one with the Imam only after death but in this life, this is not possible...

There are pretendents who claim to be Imam also in parallell and we know of some at least who have done damage in the innocent mind by claiming that they are parrallel Imam with our own real Hazar Imam.

History has been full of fools and not many have survived

Nagib

[kmaherali]

There can never be 2 imams at the same time if you mean by Imam the Mazhar of Allah. Imam is the supreme symbole of the ONE.

There are pretendents who claim to be Imam also in parallell and we know of some at least who have done damage in the innocent mind by claiming that they are parrallel Imam with our own real Hazar Imam.

History has been full of fools and not many have survived

Nagib

Imam Hassan Ala Zikri his Salaam as quoted by Tusi in the Paradise of Submission (pg. 125) explains:

"The Imams, both outwardly and inwardly, both exoterically and esoteri-cally, issue from the pure line and loins of the Imam, one after another. The Imam is perfect when still in the form of sperm in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imam is always an Imam and always perfect. Otherwise, why should he say, 'The Imam knows from which drop of sperm the Imam after him will come?'116 If his being in the form of a drop of sperm or adult were not the same, he would not have said: 'His sperm was kneaded along with his intellect.'1" Their status looks different according to the way that our eyes perceive them. For example, sometimes [we see that the Imam is] a child, sometimes an old person, and sometimes a youth, and so forth, because although he does not change, it can be that we see him with our eyes as changing, or see him as two distinct persons, as a father and son. This is akin to the man with double sight who sees all things as two instead of one, or the person who turns round and round on one spot, and when he sits down sees the room spinning around him although it is fixed, but since the man's mind is spinning round and round, he thinks the room is turning too; one may also consider the case of someone suffering from bile to whom sugar has a bitter taste. But once you come to the realisation that that drop of sperm in the loins of his father is but one and the same light, 'a light that transmigrates from loins to loins,'118 and even though the mother's womb into which this light enters [may be perceived by you] as imperfect, you may still affirm these words: 'And we come from the Light of God (nur Allah)'.119 For can the Light of God be affected by anything? Can the Light of God be dimmed by any cause or circumstance? It is nonsensical [to maintain otherwise], my friend. Or can this intellectual sperm (nutfa-yi 'aqlant) be more perfect when it becomes a mature person? Or can anything be hidden from the Light of God, [so that it can be supposed] that at some time he [the Imam] is cognisant [of a truth] and another time incognisant, or that some of them know and others do not? This matter [of the perfection of Imamate] is not what some people have supposed."

It can be debatable whether individuals attain the status of the Imam or not but the above quote clearly alludes to the possibility of two persons having the same LIght although only one is recognised and functions as the Imam.

To eliminate the false claims we have added doctrines of Imamat remaining in only one family and that it can only be passed from father to son or grandson.

[ShamsB]

Still confused... Does that mean there were two Ali's, Sultan Mohamed Shah and Karim Shah.. Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah was the holder of the Noor. There cant be two Imams existing at the same. At least i think so.

Perhaps i shouldnt ask these questions, because i dont think one can ever find a definitive answer, unless one is blessed with the divine vision.

Stop thinking of the Noor of Ali as an object or a limited substance...think of it as endless/limitless....we are trying to apply a human concept to the Noor..that's where the breakdown is....

Shams

[samirziz]

By the way, the book you have quoted, Paradise of Submission.. what exactly is it about?

And who wrote it?

[nashvelshi]

Nasir al-Din Tusi wrote that book. He was an Ismaili theologian, philosopher and scientist who lived during the Alamut period in Ismaili history and partook his knowledge from the great libraries in the Alamut castle. More about him here:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/t/tusi.htm

and here:

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=106512

[kmaherali]

Thanks Nash for the information about Tusi. MHI when he was here in 2004 mentioned him as one of the scholars that the West should have knowledge about.

Regarding the subject at hand, I would strongly recommend that one reads the Tasawwurs (chapters) 24 and 26 of the Paradise of Submission which deal with prophethood and imamate from a Nizari Ismaili perspective.

[dchandani]

I do not agree with kmeherali when he states any one can reach the status of Imam.
Mowlana sultan mohammad shah has said in his firmans that if you try you can be like mansur or peer shams or prophet Essa
but i do not see that courage in you.
But none of the Imams have ever said you can reach the status of an Imam
When you die you can be one with ALLAH BUT not before that.
From all our dicussions on this forum we have been emphasising that Imam is God than how can one attain that stage unless he has died.
Naas means passage of divinity from one Imam to another at the time of physical death of the previous Imam and I understand only then does the next Imam acquires the same status as the current Imam.

[kmaherali]

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said the following to a group of Ismaili missionaries on rebirth.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

The above statement clearly indicates that the highest points are attainable in this world.

Nass is not the passage of divinity, it is tranferance of spiritual authority/function of the Imam for the recognition of the world. As Imam Hasan Ala Zikrihis Salaam has alluded in the statements that I have quoted, the Imam is an Imam whether in the mothers womb or whether he is designated as such. The status of the Imam does not change only his role will change upon designation by nass.

[samirziz]

I was reading the assasin legends by Farhad Daftary, and came across the familiar name- Nasir al Tusi, who wrote paradise of submission, i find it ironic that once a prominent figure within the ismaili community, became a vizier for one of the leaders of the Mongols.. Kinda makes me wonder, dont you?

[kmaherali]

I was reading the assasin legends by Farhad Daftary, and came across the familiar name- Nasir al Tusi, who wrote paradise of submission, i find it ironic that once a prominent figure within the ismaili community, became a vizier for one of the leaders of the Mongols.. Kinda makes me wonder, dont you?

There are conflicting versions and interpretations of this period of our history and Tusi's actions in particular. One interpretation is that he practised taqiyyah and in that respect saved a lot of lives and a great deal of our heritage.

MHI had this to say about Tusi at the Leadership and Diversity Conference Gatineau, Quebec, Canada, May 19, 2004

"Humanities curricula in many educational institutions in the West, rarely feature great Muslim philosophers, scientists, astronomers and writers of the classical age of Islam, such as Avicenna, Farabi and al-Kindi, Nasir Khusraw and Tusi."

In any case the statement under consideration is made by Imam Hassan Ala Zikri his Salaam and not Tusi who was only quoting it and has also provided the source.